Proper "Training" collar level

[surferdave]

I just purchased a dogtra 1900 NCP and have been having issues finding the right "training" level on my dog. There are 127 degrees of intensity on the stimulation setting, and I'm not exactly sure I'm at the right level. I originally worked with him on level 15, but wasn't 100% sure it was his training level. When I tried it on him last night, I used the nick function while he was in sit position. I went all the way up to 40 without an obvious response, and finally at 40 he let out a yelp. This morning I worked him at level 25 and there seemed to be a slight panic when I commanded him to heel with a bit of whimpering. I lowered it to 20 and he was complying well. I know all dogs are different, and it's hard to get advice on this, but I just want to make sure he's at the right training level. Thanks.

[Birddog3412]

It is different from dog to dog. I use a sportdog 1800, (8 nick settings, 8 continuous 8 second settings) I have one female that just needs a nick set at 1 or 2. I have a one year old pup out of her that needs continuous at 4 or 5 to just get her attention. If he is whelping when you shock him it is set too high. Just let him run free, work your way up in level see what gets his attention, the level that gets his attention is the level to train at. I find that in warmer weather you can find a dogs level eaiser, If the dog is panting a little I work my way up on levels of stimulation, he will quit panting for a second when you get to "his" level.

I have found that alot of dogs need a higher setting on the nick that they do on continuous.

[RayGubernat]

surferdave -

The correct answer is: The lowest level at which you get the dog to respond.

As you found out already...that level changes. Your dog was either trying to ignore you or did not completely understand what it was you wanted him to do. Obviously at 40, he let you know that he heard you. The following day the 25 level was obviously more than the dog needed as a cue.

Keep that stuff stored in your memory bank. As has been said...what works for your dog...works for your dog. It appears that you have pretty much figured that out for routine training applications.

Incidentally, I bet the dog has also figured out that if I don't do what this SOB wants, he just ups the ante on me until I do. I'd better do what he wants and get it over with. That, my friend is a VERY important lesson for the dog to learn.

Once learned, it will allow you to use lower and lower levels of stimulation as a cue to get the desired response, when the verbal or visual cue is ignored. That is a very good thing, because the training progression you want is to work towards compliance with only verbal or visual cues, the e-collar being just an insurance policy.

FWIW, I have a Tritronics with 5 stim levels. I almost never need to go above 2 when on the dog's neck and almost never need to go above 1 when on the flank. The only time I would go above that would be to stop a dog that is chasing trash(deer) or to sock it to a dog that i am absolutely positive is blowing me off. Then, I do not screw around. The dog gets a full eight second high hard one at maximum intensity and if it does not cease and desist...it gets another one.

RayG

[surferdave]

Thanks guys, that really puts things into retrospect. I'll continue to put all of this collar training feedback in my memory banks. I'm going to continue using the e-collar with the check cord to make sure he knows exactly what to do to turn stimulation off. Thanks.

[Springer tamer]

I use that same model on my springer and used its predecessor before that. Just as a point of reference, over the last two years I have learned with my particular dog that around 25 is right for her in yard and park training, and 35-40 is about right for hunting. Both vary somewhat, but not much. I do not use the nick function. Through repeated use it will become very clear to you what it takes to get the dog's attention without being over the top.

[ezzy333]

I use that same model on my springer and used its predecessor before that. Just as a point of reference, over the last two years I have learned with my particular dog that around 25 is right for her in yard and park training, and 35-40 is about right for hunting. Both vary somewhat, but not much. I do not use the nick function. Through repeated use it will become very clear to you what it takes to get the dog's attention without being over the top.

Make sure the collar is tight enough and in the right position. I find the lack of response is many times due to the collar not being on properly to make good contact.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

Be aware that not all dogs at first show a reaction to the collar. As it is used more on them, they then show the reaction. Always start at the lowest level, and work your way up. You won't always see a dog flinch. Sometimes they just begin responding faster. As they become used to the electrcal stimulation, the flinch or yelp depending on the level will surface.

[kninebirddog]

Properly fitting the collar is very important also

then you do need to watch for muscle response..which dogtra is not as good at it has a different type of stimulation which feels more like a needle then a stimulation of the muscles..yes that is personally me testing collars on my self..Tri tronics and sport dog both feel more like a tens unit stimulating the muscle

dogtra and DT was more a like a needle being pressed up against the skin then at higher levels more like a burning needle

but no matter the e collar is not really a training collar it is a maintain the training collar like an invisible check cord

[gonehuntin']

I also try all of my collars on myself. Start at 1 and work up until it gets uncomfortable and you'll have an idea of what the dog feels. Don't let your wife or K-9 work the transmitter!!!!!! :roll:

[EvanG]

You've gotten some good advice, although not entirely accurate. E-collars are beneficial as training tools because of their ability to apply pressure at any practical distance, and with exact timing - provided your timing is that good! But understand that we use pressure in dog training for the express purpose of changing their behavior for the better.

To adjust the amount of pressure merely to get a reaction/response isn't quite the point. You may see a reaction, but that reaction may not be the correction you were seeking. Some dogs are very sensitive, while others are so independent and resistant to training that you'll see them react to pressure, but continue a wrong behavior. The point of having e-collars with variable intensity abilities is two-fold. First and foremost, it is to assure the ability to apply well timed stimulus in amounts adequate to change behavior. Then, having formed desireable behavior, you also have the capacity to adjust the intensity level downward as the dog becomes more compliant with less need for higher levels. It's really a great tool when you learn how to use it.

BTW, I also hand test all my e-collars. I want to know how hard each one hits (or how soft), and I want to know if there is a delay in delivery of stimulus.

EvanG

[ezzy333]

Good post Evan.

Collars are training tools when used properly just like a CC. Diffence between the two is length.

Ezzy

[Keny Glasscock]

I look for compliance without getting a reaction. I use the continuous setting in 90% of what I do. In the early stages I want the dog to roll into the back, stop to flush, etc, not slam to a stop. If I get a reaction i.e. coiling up, verbalization, recall I know the stim is to high. It only takes once. I make a mental note of the dogs reaction or compliance and adjust my level of stimulation accordingly. Starting off to high will desensitize a dog and the need to go higher and higher can occurs. I've seen dogs that were so desensitized that you run out of collar when you really need it. It pays off in spades to start and stay as low a setting as you can get compliance with.

[RayGubernat]

Kenny -

It can also work the other way. A dog that has been zipped really good for something like running trash, might only need a verbal reminder or a low intensity nick to "remind" them that if they do not listen, ther will be he!! to pay. Kinda like in the "good old" days when you stretched a dog's ears for non compliance. Many a dog of mine got to the point where if you put your hand in the air called their name and just touched your thumb and forefinger together, they remembered what was gonna be next if they didn't hustle up and do what I was asking.

I constantly work toward using lower and lower stim levels and try to move away from continuous to nick. Again, if the dog complies with a lower level stim, then, next time, the stim, if necessary at all, will be at that level or lower.

RayG

[surferdave]

Great information. Thank you for everyone's comments. I definitely understand that all dogs are different, and I must adjust the stimulation level to fit his training. During this period of training, do you notice that dogs tend to be hesitant about the training? I try to keep it enthusiastic with "fun bumpers" at the beginning or end, with some treats mixed in, but there definitely is some hesitation.

[birddogger]

I am not sure what you mean when you say the dogs are hesitant with the training. I believe if you have properly introduced and conditioned them to the e-collar, the training should still be a positive experience for them.

Charlie

[surferdave]

I'm pretty sure I properly introduced him to the collar. I let him wear it for two weeks at the dog parks, playing fetch, at the beach, etc. It just seems as though he's associating the training area, like where the place boards are, with the collar stimulation. I think I'll tone down the stimulation level a bit more. This is just the 4th day of using it, so I'm getting feedback everyday on what works.

[EvanG]

Dave,

There is a good deal more to e-collar conditioning than just letting them wear one in advance of its use. There is a course of conditioning to known commands, along with a pressure conditioning procedure. Are you familiar with these techniques?

EvanG

[kninebirddog]

Dave,

There is a good deal more to e-collar conditioning than just letting them wear one in advance of its use. There is a course of conditioning to known commands, along with a pressure conditioning procedure. Are you familiar with these techniques?

EvanG

Ditto Ditto Ditto

Wearing the e collar before use doesn't magically get the dog to understand cues

this is the method I use to start conditioning puppies and dogs to cues from the leash lead collar

UNDERSTANDING THE E COLLAR

[surferdave]

Yes, I do understand the process to collar conditioning through use of a check cord and choke chain, which I used. My dog definitely understands "pressure on pressure off". I will continue to work him with the e-collar w/ a check cord until he has a through understanding that only through compliance can he relieve the pressure of the collar. Using this new training tool is a bit tricky, but I believe my timing is getting better. The first few days I think the stimulation was odd and unusual to him, but he's starting to understand it now. Thanks for the advice.

[Ditch__Parrot]

Yes, I do understand the process to collar conditioning through use of a check cord and choke chain, which I used.

Just use a flat collar with the check-cord. I only use a choke chain with a short lead where I have good control and a good view of what is going on with it. And I seem to be one of the few on this forum who still use it at all. No need for anything more than a flat collar during e-collar conditioning or for any check-cord work.

Those are my 2 pennies anyway, take it for the cent and a 1/2 its probably worth.

[surferdave]

Thanks, yes, alongside the e-collar, I've only been using a flat collar. Prior to this, his leash training was with a mendota british slip lead. Now that I've worked him for about 1.5 weeks on the e-collar, I'm really amazed at how useful this tool is in training. Immediate corrections from a distance is incredible. Can't wait to bulletproof obedience off leash with it. One more question I have is, as of right now, when he doesn't have his collar on, I try not to give many commands, as I don't want to give a command I can't enforce. Outside of training, like going to the park, beach, etc. Should I have the e-collar on him, this way he doesn't become collar wise? Thanks in advance.

[RayGubernat]

surferdave -

A pro once told me that he has the e-collar on every one of his dogs ...every single time he is training it.

If don't need it and it is on the dog, there is nothing lost and no problem. If you need it and it ain't on the dog...now you got a problem. Training opportunity lost and bad habit learned.

The only 2 times my dogs do not wear the e-collar is 1) when they are rough housing in the backyard with me and with each other and 2) when competing in a field trial.

I have a six year old female that probably has not been even nicked in the last two years, but I still put the collar on her...just in case.

Even a stone dead broke, totally obedient dog can have a bad day and mess up. They are dogs, flesh and blood, not machines.

RayG