To sit or not to sit!

hollymadsenripley · Post by **hollymadsenripley** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:04 am

Just gettng my new pup. I have had several people tell me NOT to teach my pointer to sit...and several say it's ok to teach them to sit. Anyone ever have any problems with teaching them to sit or anyone have an opinion there???????

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:19 am

Th eproblem comes when you use pressure later in the training. Some dogs, and it isn't all, but some will sit when you are rrying to breack them to be steady or when yu are teaching whoa. They do it trying to please you and it causes some un-needed problems. I find you can teach down or whoa and get as good of results as teaching sit and it reduces the problems you may have later.

You will hear some people who haven't experienced the problem tell you it ok. But it just makes sense to me to eliminate the possibility since it has been proven to happen with some dogs. Because my dog crosses the road and hasn't been hit with a car I am not going to tell you its ok to let your dog cross the road. Thats my take ,

Ezzy

Keny Glasscock · Post by **Keny Glasscock** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:07 pm

I saw this issue today. Guy brought out his 6 month old Britt. He tells her to "sit" right out of the truck. I explain to him that I understand what he's trying to accomplish since he lives in the city, etc. but it's probably better to not teach her to sit at this point in her development. As we evaulated the pup her first inclination was to sit whenever she was confused or felt any pressure. Sit has already become her default response.

uthunter · Post by **uthunter** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:11 pm

I am dealing with this problem right now. The guy who had my Britt before me(i got her when she was 6 months)taught her to sit, now every time she gets confused she sits. Very frustrating and could have been avoided.

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:23 pm

Keny Glasscock wrote:I saw this issue today. Guy brought out his 6 month old Britt. He tells her to "sit" right out of the truck. I explain to him that I understand what he's trying to accomplish since he lives in the city, etc. but it's probably better to not teach her to sit at this point in her development. As we evaulated the pup her first inclination was to sit whenever she was confused or felt any pressure. Sit has already become her default response.

I understand why he doesnt want his dog to run off in the city, this seems to be the reason he is teaching sit out of the truck. Why not teach WHOA?

In My opinion sit is a waste of time!!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:20 pm

Lets see..........same old arguements. Teach a dog to sit and it'll sit on point when pressure is put on. Teach a dog HERE, and he won't range out. Teaching a dog WHOA has no value. An electric collar masks genetic faults. Don't teach a pointing dog DOWN. Don't teach a dog HEEL or he'll stay too close.

Good grief, how do the NAVHDA ever mangage to learn all of these command and still point birds?

I fully obedience train all my dogs and I have NEVER had a dog sit on point on a wild bird, nor have I ever seen ANY dog sit on a wild bird. Isn't that what it's all about?

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:09 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Lets see..........same old arguements. Teach a dog to sit and it'll sit on point when pressure is put on. Teach a dog HERE, and he won't range out. Teaching a dog WHOA has no value. An electric collar masks genetic faults. Don't teach a pointing dog DOWN. Don't teach a dog HEEL or he'll stay too close.

Good grief, how do the NAVHDA ever mangage to learn all of these command and still point birds?

I fully obedience train all my dogs and I have NEVER had a dog sit on point on a wild bird, nor have I ever seen ANY dog sit on a wild bird. Isn't that what it's all about?

I think the average hunting dog needs four commands: here, whoa, kennel, fetch. Excluding hunt tests and maybe some people hunting with brittanies (sit to flush) who uses "SIT" in the field while hunting over pointing dogs.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:38 pm

Best to wait on Sit...Let the dog grow up some learn hunting and confident in pointing. Then is when it is OK in my book...

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:19 pm

I must admit to being a novice to the pointing world. I'll be picking up my first ES in a month or so. As a novice to the pointing world, one of the first things that struck in much of what I've read during my research was the lack of credit a lot of guys seem to give their dogs. Before ya'll hammer me for being a clueless novice, note that I said new to pointing dogs. I've dealt with quite a few dogs from schutzund to cattle work, and in fact start two year old cutting horse prospects professionally. Maybe a dog does initially sit when confused. So What? Isn't teaching them what we want and what we don't want why we train them? I fully expect to initially get the incorrect response when teaching a new skill/command. Most of the time, the first few times an animal does the correct action we are looking for, it is chance that causes it. We reward that action, even though at first the pup doesn't recognize what they did to get the reward. It is only the end result that matters. You work through the confusion and gradually they understand more and more precisely what we want, and the undesired actions, or in-actions go away. This is not a special circumstance solely in the training of pointing dogs.
There is absolutely no reason in the world why a dog can't learn a variety of commands and come to understand that different situations have different rules. I can easily teach most any horse (even one that has never been handled before) way more than 4 commands in just a month, and a horse is not nearly as smart as a dog. If you want your dog to learn the sit command, there is no reason in the world, why it shouldn't be able to learn to sit, but not sit when pointing. I would venture to guess that a lot of those dogs that sit under pressure do so naturally, because of their personality, and not due to being trained that way. Doesn't matter, though, if they were trained that way. It takes a bit more effort to change one, but it certainly can be done. Train your dog your way. Good luck.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:44 pm

daniel, nobody is saying a pointing dog shouldn't be taught to sit, if that is what you want. However, to avoid potential problems later, it is best to wait until he has learned his other basic yard work commands before being taught to sit. For instance, when you begin whoa training, and the dog sits because he is confused and sit is what he knows, it is going to take more work. Can he still be trained? ofcoarse he can, but it is going to be more frustrating and take more work and time. Why take a chance on making it harder than need be?

Charlie

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:09 pm

I'm all for not causing yourself training problems down the line, and all for asking good questions in an effort to avoid those problems. That is exactly why I'm here. I just think that the difference between sitting and standing is so simple that if a dog had major problems with this, he wasn't going to "make it" anyway. For any decent prospect, if this problem did occur it could easily be solved in a few days. Two months later, you wouldn't even remember it was ever an issue. For a bit of contrast, Schutzhund dogs learn to stay from a down, sit, or stand, and they do it in a variety of scenarios with extreme temptation, including from a full run at heel. And this is considered a very basic part of Schutzhund obedience training. It gets even more complicated for them.

Let's say that I'm wrong and the dog begins to sit when he shouldn't. Go back to the leash in the back yard. You heel the dog and while walking command sit. He sits. You release him and continue the walk. Now you command whoa. He sits. You put a rope around his belly and when he tries to sit, you hold him up till he wants the pressure off his belly and stands (one of many methods for this problem). Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Now, you command whoa. He stops, but remains standing. Problem solved in the yard in five minutes. What's so hard about that?

Train your dog any way you want. I just think that we can/should expect an animal to fulfill his potential, or at least approach it. I'm not saying that a dog with a simple basis for training couldn't be a good hunting dog, but having just four commands leaves acres of room for improvement. On the other hand, if you can let the dog out the truck and tell him to whoa, knowing he isn't going to run out in the road, the main goal is still accomplished. Cheers

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:25 pm

Each individual can go about training his or her dog any way they prefer. As for myself, I prefer to do things in a cetain order to increase the odds of things going more smoothly. I have seen people have problems for teaching the sit command too early, and it was not because they didn't have a good prospect. I just don't see an issue in waiting until later to teach sit.

Charlie

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:32 pm

Just ask a few of the pros how many dogs they get in to train that have the sit issue under pressure & how much extra work it takes to cure it.

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:15 pm

hollymadsenripley wrote:Just gettng my new pup. I have had several people tell me NOT to teach my pointer to sit...and several say it's ok to teach them to sit. Anyone ever have any problems with teaching them to sit or anyone have an opinion there???????

Yep I've had problems with it. I've always taught dogs to sit as one of their first commands (right after Off, No and Drop it) and did so also with Sadie my older dog. Problems didn't show up until I was teaching the command "whoa". Sit had become a default command and I had a very hard time teaching her whoa. Much more difficult than it should have been. In fact to this day we have to continually work on whoa to keep it fresh in her mind not to sit.

No she has never sat on point and it is my opinion that whoa doesn't have a thing to do with pointing. To me whoa is simply an obedience command to stop and stand stil right where your at when I say it.

It is my opinion that teaching sit is fine. Just don't teach it first, don't teach it until they are rock solid on whoa. Rather that is at 5 or 15 months is a whole 'nother debate.

Yes Sadie was probably a terrible "prospect". :roll: I might not of had the headaches with a better dog. I doubt when it comes to dog owners that I'm in the minority when I say that when a dog comes to live with me how long their stay is for has little to do with how good of "prospect" they are. And I'm sure not going to send a dog down the road for a problem that I could have avoided with a little better foresight on my part.

My younger dog is probably a better "prospect". Better bred and as bold as can be. I doubt that she would have much problems with it. I'm sure not going to take the chance of repeating my earlier mistakes with her though. Waiting to teach sit is a small inconvenience. Probably more so to me being that mine are house dogs. It is nothing though in comparison to the problem teaching sit too early has created for me in the past.

With Daisy I started whoa very early but without the command. I would and I still do have her whoa before putting her food bowl down and before going out the door as well as coming back in and to whoa right inside the door once in to get her feet wiped. Seemed weird at first teaching a dog to do something without introducing the command with it. It worked really well though. She learned quickly that I wasn't going to put the food bowl down untill she stood still. Same with going outside to play etc.. I didn't start using the word "whoa" until she already understood what was expected. I have waited to formalize whoa (whoa post, place boards etc..) until after her first season of hunting which just ended yesterday so we will get to that soon. She already has a pretty big head start so I'm thinking it should go very smoothly.

daniel77 wrote:Let's say that I'm wrong and the dog begins to sit when he shouldn't. Go back to the leash in the back yard. You heel the dog and while walking command sit. He sits. You release him and continue the walk. Now you command whoa. He sits. You put a rope around his belly and when he tries to sit, you hold him up till he wants the pressure off his belly and stands (one of many methods for this problem). Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Now, you command whoa. He stops, but remains standing. Problem solved in the yard in five minutes. What's so hard about that?

What are your plans for when you tell a dog that is 60 yards away to whoa then they run straight to you and sit down beside you ? Wash rinse repeat as you say over and over again and the best you get is a dog inconsistently running to you and standing beside you. I just remember thinking similar thoughts once. It's a headache worth trying to avoid. I don't think it has anything to do with how many commands a dog can learn. More it is a matter of in what order it is best to teach them.

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:49 pm

Ditch__Parrot wrote:
daniel77 wrote:Let's say that I'm wrong and the dog begins to sit when he shouldn't. Go back to the leash in the back yard. You heel the dog and while walking command sit. He sits. You release him and continue the walk. Now you command whoa. He sits. You put a rope around his belly and when he tries to sit, you hold him up till he wants the pressure off his belly and stands (one of many methods for this problem). Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Now, you command whoa. He stops, but remains standing. Problem solved in the yard in five minutes. What's so hard about that?
What are your plans for when you tell a dog that is 60 yards away to whoa then they run straight to you and sit down beside you ? Wash rinse repeat as you say over and over again and the best you get is a dog inconsistently running to you and standing beside you. I just remember thinking similar thoughts once. It's a headache worth trying to avoid. I don't think it has anything to do with how many commands a dog can learn. More it is a matter of in what order it is best to teach them.

I'm new here, and I don't want to start out on the wrong foot. I just think it's ridiculous that something so basic and simple is viewed with such fear. I can't think of any other dog training discipline where so little is thought of the dog's ability to differentiate commands. That's all I'm saying. I sure hope this pup coming isn't as hard to train as ya'll seem to think these things are.
You say in your post that you teach "NO". Don't you fear that they'll confuse that with "whoa". Of course not, they will quickly learn the difference, and those commands even sound the same. I'd dang sure bet that these dogs that seem to give ya'll this problem of sitting under pressure, are simply more timid dogs that can't take much pressure and sitting is a submissive response. I'd bet some of those dogs lay down and show their belly in those same scenarios. I'm not saying that "defaults" can't be hardwired into a young dog, but teaching a simple command to a puppy is a world apart from drilling it in so that it becomes a fully trained default response.

People "ruin" dogs with e-collars all the time too. It isn't the collar's fault. This argument reminds me of the racehorse trainers that NEVER EVER EVER allow anyone to back their horse up, or say whoa to them. As if the horse is suddenly going to stop and begin backing up during a race. This is pure foolishness. I sure wouldn't teach one to sit at 8 weeks, start them on birds, gun break them, force fetch them, and wait till 16 months to begin whoa. Why in the heck can't they also learn basic whoa at the same time as the other basic commands? I totally agree that whoa has little to do with pointing. It is a simple obedience command. Nothing more, nothing less. Your question of telling a dog to whoa when it is sixty yards away, and it runs to you and sits, I could write paragraphs about. That could be confusing "heel/come/here" with "whoa" BTW, and sitting is only the latter half the problem in that scenario. Should we also hold off on teaching them to "come" so this doesn't happen?

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:49 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Lets see..........same old arguements. Teach a dog to sit and it'll sit on point when pressure is put on. Teach a dog HERE, and he won't range out. Teaching a dog WHOA has no value. An electric collar masks genetic faults. Don't teach a pointing dog DOWN. Don't teach a dog HEEL or he'll stay too close.

Good grief, how do the NAVHDA ever mangage to learn all of these command and still point birds?

I fully obedience train all my dogs and I have NEVER had a dog sit on point on a wild bird, nor have I ever seen ANY dog sit on a wild bird. Isn't that what it's all about?

I agree.

Zio is our first hunting dog. He is obedience trained (currently at CD & we're going for his CDX shortly). He's never had the problem of "sitting" in the field. Doesn't seem to be hurting his hunting instinct or trainability: he just got 2nd in Amateur Gun Dog in a field of 16 dogs.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:34 pm

Most of the time when people have a problem with "SIT", it is because that command was taught as a DEFAULT RESPONSE. What I mean by that is, whenever a pup got in trouble and sat, he was praised. We all invite people to our homes and when we have a new pup, the first thing they tell the little rascal is to sit, then praise the daylights out of him when he does. It's natural and most people are guilty of it.

So, from the time many dogs are babies, they are taught to sit as the PRIMARY response to most commands. "Bad DOG, YOU sit!!!!". "Stop chewing on that shoe, you SIT!!!!" "Come HERE! You SIT!!" It is a cure all for everything poor pup does that we view as wrong. Then there's the kids and adults that teach them sit as the first command, gently pushing their butts down and rewarding them when they do it. Is it any wonder many dogs sit whenever they get in trouble?

I teach all of my dogs to sit, but it's one of the LAST commands they learn. As a pup, they learn NO, HERE, and KENNEL, and that's about it. Whoa is also introduced over the food dish. Later on when he goes through obedience, he'll learn sit along with fetch, hold, drop, and down. When it's taught as one of a series of commands and not as a primary default response, there is no problem with it. A dog no more sits when he's in trouble, than he downs, heels, or fetches as a response.

It's just fundamental common sense really. The dogs you see that sit on point in the training field are dogs that were taught sit as a primary default response.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:52 pm

SubMariner wrote: I agree.

Zio is our first hunting dog. He is obedience trained (currently at CD & we're going for his CDX shortly). He's never had the problem of "sitting" in the field. Doesn't seem to be hurting his hunting instinct or trainability: he just got 2nd in Amateur Gun Dog in a field of 16 dogs."

You have never had a problem, so the pros on here must be wrong. I am certainly no pro and have never claimed to be, But I can tell you, I have seen it happen.

daniel, you say you hope puppy training isn't as hard as we are making it sound. I guess that depends on the individual dog, but I do know that the owner/handler can sure make it more difficult than it needs to be. Especially for people who refuse to take advise from people who have been there and done that.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:23 pm

SubMariner wrote:I agree.

Zio is our first hunting dog. He is obedience trained (currently at CD & we're going for his CDX shortly). He's never had the problem of "sitting" in the field. Doesn't seem to be hurting his hunting instinct or trainability: he just got 2nd in Amateur Gun Dog in a field of 16 dogs."

birddogger wrote:You have never had a problem, so the pros on here must be wrong. I am certainly no pro and have never claimed to be, But I can tell you, I have seen it happen.

daniel, you say you hope puppy training isn't as hard as we are making it sound. I guess that depends on the individual dog, but I do know that the owner/handler can sure make it more difficult than it needs to be. Especially for people who refuse to take advise from people who have been there and done that.

Kindly do not put YOUR spin on MY words!

As others are doing, I am offering what I have observed. My dog has not experienced this problem. Conversely, I have seen dogs who are NOT obedience trained exhibit the behaviour discussed (i.e. sitting at inappropriate times).

IOW, it all depends on how well the dog is trained. Especially how he/she will react under stress.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:35 pm

SubMariner wrote:
SubMariner wrote:I agree.

Zio is our first hunting dog. He is obedience trained (currently at CD & we're going for his CDX shortly). He's never had the problem of "sitting" in the field. Doesn't seem to be hurting his hunting instinct or trainability: he just got 2nd in Amateur Gun Dog in a field of 16 dogs."

birddogger wrote:You have never had a problem, so the pros on here must be wrong. I am certainly no pro and have never claimed to be, But I can tell you, I have seen it happen.

daniel, you say you hope puppy training isn't as hard as we are making it sound. I guess that depends on the individual dog, but I do know that the owner/handler can sure make it more difficult than it needs to be. Especially for people who refuse to take advise from people who have been there and done that.
Kindly do not put YOUR spin on MY words!

As others are doing, I am offering what I have observed. My dog has not experienced this problem. Conversely, I have seen dogs who are NOT obedience trained exhibit the behaviour discussed (i.e. sitting at inappropriate times).

IOW, it all depends on how well the dog is trained. Especially how he/she will react under stress.

I am not putting a spin on your words at all. It is not a matter of how well the dog is trained. The problem we are talking about can happen because of the sequence of commands taught! The fact that you haven't observed the problem, means nothing!!

Charlie

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:14 pm

Each to his own. You can go to bed tonight with the satisfaction that you know something we mere people don't.
Isn't it possible that there are two schools of thought at work here? Neither must be wrong, and neither may be completely right. This whole topic seems to be a perennial hot button, and ultimately we all make our own choices and live with the consequences. Certainly a puppy could be overly "trained" to the point of the action becoming a default. That would be an error made by the "trainer" and I'd bet you dollars to pesos that it's not the only one. To make the blanket statement that no training in that direction should be undertaken seems a bit of an over-reaction to me. However, giving a warning of potentially dangerous waters is a good thing, and I'm not refusing to take your advise. I promise I'll be careful. All things in moderation and good common sense should prevail. I think those of us who have done a bit of basic obedience training and seen or been a part of other types of training aren't too worried about making a mess of the basic commands.
All of the above is based on an assumption that I'm not sure is completely true. Nurture vs nature debate will never be settled completely, but I'd again bet you dollars to pesos that certain dogs are predisposed, no matter how they've been trained/raised/conditioned, to sit, or respond in a similarly cowering manner, under pressure. I guarantee you that if you raise enough pups, and handle them exactly as you want to, you'll still come across this sitting problem. BTW, I still view this "problem" as a relatively minor one.
I can also certainly understand the pro trainer's perspective here. They simply want a blank slate so that they don't have to spend time fixing things that should never have been done. I encounter that all the time with colts I'm breaking. If you know that you are going to bring your pup to a trainer, and that trainer doesn't want them to sit, then don't do it. Nobody is saying that you must teach a pup to sit but, I have no doubts that my pup and I will get along just fine.Thanks for your concern.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:32 pm

I said from the beginning that each individual can train a dog as they prefer. The original poster was asking for advise and got good advise from people with experience. {not talking about myself} I am sure a person, such as yourself, will never need advise, since you have it all figured out.

Charlie

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:47 pm

Teach what ever you want & train how ever you want then there is no reason to ask for advice.If you have a problem just hire daniel to cure it or maybe since the rest of us are WRONG he will do it PRO BONO.

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:56 pm

vzkennels wrote:Teach what ever you want & train how ever you want then there is no reason to ask for advice.If you have a problem just hire daniel to cure it or maybe since the rest of us are WRONG he will do it PRO BONO.

Go back and reread the entire thread. A few other guys seem to think that a pointer who will sit is not ruined. I've never said that ya'll are WRONG. That piece of arrogance is yours alone. I merely offered another point of view, and explained my reasoning.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:15 pm

Daniel here is the thing about this advice.Most of the people that ask this question are first timers or beginners,the ones that will get frustrated the most when things go wrong & will only lead to more frustration etc & etc.The more frustrated they get the more confused the dog becomes & bad goes to worse & leads to more mistakes.We are only trying to show them how to avoid some problems that aren't necessary to begin with.What is it going to hurt to wait or not teach it at all since it is not a needed command for a pointing dog?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:22 pm

Most people can discuss topics diplomatically and disagree with class. With a few others, it is useless and a waste of time. They already know it all. I won't even stoop low enough to respond to the comment, regarding my age.

Hopefully, the original poster can see the difference between one person and the others who are trying to be helpful.

Charlie

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:24 pm

"One of the most common and basic commands" I do not teach Sit to any of my dogs anymore, and, guess what? They do fine...My last house dog lived to 17 and never knew sit, no bigggie:) I have people bring dogs in for training and as soon as they get the dog out of the car and dog starts getting nervous and not paying attn, owner starts telling the dog to Sit. Sit seems to be a command people use to regain control of a dog. I feel like Control is not within the Sit command.

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:42 pm

First of all, I responded in kind with the banter. If you don't want to be talked to like a child, then act like an adult. One of you must have some admin privileges, as part of one of my responses has disappeared. The missing part was civil, BTW. Oh well, play it that way if you must.

Secondly, the Lady who started this thread PM'd me yesterday after my first post. She is a lot more experienced in teaching basic obedience than you are assuming she is. And again, the difference between sit and whoa is on the lowest/simplest level of difficulty anyway.

Advice has been given from both sides. Shouldn't that be the end of our particular usefulness? Why come back with put downs and force me to respond or lose face simply because I see the issue differently? You've thrown out the warning sign. Good for you. Now give the people reading this the credit they deserve and allow them to decide how much they think they can handle. They'll either feel comfortable teaching sit after being warned of this possible problem, or they won't. None of my business either way. I think the average person is intelligent enough to decide this for themselves. Only giving them half of the story, however, takes away from their ability to make the decision themselves. Just like with the dogs, give whoever reads this credit for being smart enough to reach a few conclusions for themselves.

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:00 pm

Daniel no one here but the moderators have admin privledges & if I had called you names like you have others it would also have been deleted.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:10 pm

As a newbie to the forum, it hasn't taken long for you to show your true colors. Also, I have no control over what is deleted and what is not. There is no game being played here. That being said, there are too many good people on here for me to waste my time on the likes of you! End of conversation on my part.

Charlie

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:43 pm

Take this for what it's worth this is only my opinion.I don't over do any obedience training on my dogs I want a confident bold dog that can make decisions for it's self & don't have to be told every move to make.
I don't want a robot,I want a hunting dog that can hunt on it's own with & for me but not under my feet.I have 12 dogs in my kennel & not one of them knows sit & the many I have owned in the last 35 yrs have known sit but that's my way,don't have to be yours.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:40 am

Ted, I don't teach sit either. I don't have anything against it, I just don't have the need for it. I can see where it would be an advantage with a house dog.

Charlie

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:25 am

This thread certainly took a turn for the worse, and for my part in this, I apologize. I in no way meant to imply that anyone who had chosen not to teach sit, or chose to postpone teaching sit was in any way wrong. I merely take exception with the point that teaching "sit", or basic obedience is the path to trouble. In no way did I mean to imply that someone who had experienced this "sit" issue was an inferior trainer. I carefully used the word novice. In the horse business this is a term with no shame attached. It just means the rider or horse is without oodles of experience and is in fact used in the categorical naming of different classes at shows. Most of the people here fall into this category it would seem, since most of us are merely training our own dogs, and are not ever going to have the experience that comes from training 100's of dogs. I never meant to infer that another poster didn't know what they were talking about, or that their experiences were "not true". My personal experiences simply tell me that this can be done rather easily without future issues resulting directly from a dog knowing the "sit" command.
Even those dogs who are hunted everyday, spend the vast majority of their lives NOT in the field. It would seem that a little time spent on obedience is well worth it. I like them to have manners and be biddable during this other majority of their lives.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:33 am

birddogger wrote:Ted, I don't teach sit either. I don't have anything against it, I just don't have the need for it. I can see where it would be an advantage with a house dog.

Charlie

Ive got my pointers in the house, they DO NOT know sit....don't need it.

If they want pet the come to me and I lay my hand on their heads, then they sit , but becuase they only get pet when they are
calm and sitting. Now I will tell them to kennel or go lay down when they are getting rambunctious in the house....just dont really
need "sit".

Its good to remember , I think, birddogs aren't labs and don't or shouldn't be as heavily controlled as such.

My 2 cents.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:32 am

birddog1968 wrote:
birddogger wrote:Ted, I don't teach sit either. I don't have anything against it, I just don't have the need for it. I can see where it would be an advantage with a house dog.

Charlie

Ive got my pointers in the house, they DO NOT know sit....don't need it.

If they want pet the come to me and I lay my hand on their heads, then they sit , but becuase they only get pet when they are
calm and sitting. Now I will tell them to kennel or go lay down when they are getting rambunctious in the house....just dont really
need "sit".

Its good to remember , I think, birddogs aren't labs and don't or shouldn't be as heavily controlled as such.

My 2 cents.

well said- I've never trained any of mine to sit
I've seen dogs that sit in the field- not what I'd want to see- think mine would be confused by a sitting dog

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:07 pm

Charlie wrote:nobody is saying a pointing dog shouldn't be taught to sit, if that is what you want. However, to avoid potential problems later, it is best to wait until he has learned his other basic yard work commands before being taught to sit. For instance, when you begin whoa training, and the dog sits because he is confused and sit is what he knows, it is going to take more work. Can he still be trained? ofcoarse he can, but it is going to be more frustrating and take more work and time. Why take a chance on making it harder than need be?

Are you certain that a dog that reacts this way because he was taught to sit, or because it was his natural reaction to stress/confusion?

Training that reinforces commands that are clearly defined help prevent confusion. If I want the dog to sit I train for sit. I will only use the command if I want him to sit. If I want him to whoa I train for whoa. I will only use the command if I want him to whoa.

Why are they incompatible?

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:56 pm

I think it is confusion and they then resort to sitting because they think it is what pleases you. When they Sit they have always heard Good Boy, so first thing they do when you give a command of any kind is Sit. I do not like anyone reinforcing Heel with an Ecollar, as I have had to give a dog a nick for something and, guess what...The dog thinks he is supossed to heel:(

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:06 pm

daniel77 wrote: Most of the people here fall into this category it would seem, since most of us are merely training our own dogs, and are not ever going to have the experience that comes from training 100's of dogs. I never meant to infer that another poster didn't know what they were talking about, or that their experiences were "not true". My personal experiences simply tell me that this can be done rather easily without future issues resulting directly from a dog knowing the "sit" command..

Okay. Here is what you need to know but do not because you're brand-spanking-new here.

1. One of the people in this thread has trained 100's, nay, 1000's of dogs.
2. Prior to training those 1000's of dogs, this person trained horses professionally...for a couple of decades.
3.That person is telling you that you can head off later issues by waiting to teach sit till after the dog is standing their birds confidently.
4. Most of us here take part in some competitive venue. So, it's the context for our conversation. In almost all of them, sitting on point is pretty much a DQ or such a score knocker that it might as well be.

While I'm thinking about it, I want to clarify that I'm not telling you that they are right. I'm simply telling you that you're making assumptions that are incorrect.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:07 pm

To me, since some pro's on this board and elsewhere, suggested there can be problems--I have not put much effort into SIT with my pointing dogs. My 2.5 yr old dog will sit only on command, but it has not been drilled into her as many folks do, and she will not sit automatically during heeling or recalls. It is not an automatic response for her, like it use to be for my obedience shown dogs of yesteryear. When you do AKC obedience, you do not command SIT in the ring everytime the judge requests it--it is suppose to be an autoresponse from the dog. I have no experience in retrievers, but from the videos I've seen, it seems they want it to be an autoresponse as well on a higher level dog. Correct me if I'm wrong. For anyone heavy into AKC obedience, how many times do you see someone have to lift their dog from a sitting position to do a Stand for Examination? Yes, you can teach a STAND command, or whatever you prefer to call it...but most dogs initially start out going to that autoresponse when you stop moving. It's the same thing I see now, as I take conformation classes, with dogs that were drilled to SIT. Whether that translates to the field, seems to be a split decision, but not worth the risk to me. I do believe, that depending on how much a person drills SIT, it could also become an autoresponse to pressure or stress in certain dogs. My dog is a well mannered hunting dog despite, not using SIT.

I could teach my dogs to carry a stepstool and stand on it, every time I stop too, but I have no need. SIT is just another command/trick, and it's value is up to the dog's owner. For me, as a new pointing dog owner, it wasn't worth the risk of maybe having to fix something down the road in a young dog. When I stop at heel, am clipping toenails, have the dog on the vets table or scale, have the dog waiting at the food dish, waiting to get out of or into the truck or house--WHOA is what I've used. When my dog returns with game or from bumper drills, she does a direct recall and swings into heel position, and stands at a whoa without command. The duck blind is the only time I have found any value in SIT, for my hunting dogs...and even that is not much of an issue. Do NOT think I am dismissing the value of obedience or anyone who has successfully managed SIT in a pointing dog--because I'm not. I do hope to do AKC obedience at a much later time. It's just not the holy grail to me, to have them SIT at this time...

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:57 pm

wems2371 wrote:To me, since some pro's on this board and elsewhere, suggested there can be problems--I have not put much effort into SIT with my pointing dogs. My 2.5 yr old dog will sit only on command, but it has not been drilled into her as many folks do, and she will not sit automatically during heeling or recalls. It is not an automatic response for her, like it use to be for my obedience shown dogs of yesteryear. When you do AKC obedience, you do not command SIT in the ring everytime the judge requests it--it is suppose to be an autoresponse from the dog. I have no experience in retrievers, but from the videos I've seen, it seems they want it to be an autoresponse as well on a higher level dog. Correct me if I'm wrong. For anyone heavy into AKC obedience, how many times do you see someone have to lift their dog from a sitting position to do a Stand for Examination? Yes, you can teach a STAND command, or whatever you prefer to call it...but most dogs initially start out going to that autoresponse when you stop moving. It's the same thing I see now, as I take conformation classes, with dogs that were drilled to SIT. Whether that translates to the field, seems to be a split decision, but not worth the risk to me. I do believe, that depending on how much a person drills SIT, it could also become an autoresponse to pressure or stress in certain dogs. My dog is a well mannered hunting dog despite, not using SIT.

I could teach my dogs to carry a stepstool and stand on it, every time I stop too, but I have no need. SIT is just another command/trick, and it's value is up to the dog's owner. For me, as a new pointing dog owner, it wasn't worth the risk of maybe having to fix something down the road in a young dog. When I stop at heel, am clipping toenails, have the dog on the vets table or scale, have the dog waiting at the food dish, waiting to get out of or into the truck or house--WHOA is what I've used. When my dog returns with game or from bumper drills, she does a direct recall and swings into heel position, and stands at a whoa without command. The duck blind is the only time I have found any value in SIT, for my hunting dogs...and even that is not much of an issue. Do NOT think I am dismissing the value of obedience or anyone who has successfully managed SIT in a pointing dog--because I'm not. I do hope to do AKC obedience at a much later time. It's just not the holy grail to me, to have them SIT at this time...

One of the best posts on this thread.IMO

Charlie

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Greg you are correct the new comers don't know there are pros here that have trained more dogs in a month then they will in there life & that's why I brought up to ask a few pros.I persnally don't know one single pro that teaches sit to a pointing dog although I'm sure there are probably a few.The need for sit is a personal thing for the individual & their dog but really not required of a pointing dog.Some people just feel it necessary to control a dogs every movement.I for one am not one of them.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:22 pm

gpblitz wrote:
SubMariner wrote:Are you certain that a dog that reacts this way because he was taught to sit, or because it was his natural reaction to stress/confusion?
My youngest dog has never been taught to sit. When she is feeling preesure at times she'll sit vs. whoa when told. All past dogs have been taught sit with same reaction when feeling pressure. I'm inclined to beleive it's the reaction to stress / cofussion.

I agree totally. But I believe it is possible to limit the stress/confusion with proper training.

by snips » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:56 pm

I think it is confusion and they then resort to sitting because they think it is what pleases you. When they Sit they have always heard Good Boy, so first thing they do when you give a command of any kind is Sit. I do not like anyone reinforcing Heel with an Ecollar, as I have had to give a dog a nick for something and, guess what...The dog thinks he is supossed to heel:(brenda

Exactly!!

Charlie

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:42 pm

wems2371 wrote:To me, since some pro's on this board and elsewhere, suggested there can be problems--I have not put much effort into SIT with my pointing dogs. My 2.5 yr old dog will sit only on command, but it has not been drilled into her as many folks do, and she will not sit automatically during heeling or recalls. It is not an automatic response for her, like it use to be for my obedience shown dogs of yesteryear. When you do AKC obedience, you do not command SIT in the ring everytime the judge requests it--it is suppose to be an autoresponse from the dog. I have no experience in retrievers, but from the videos I've seen, it seems they want it to be an autoresponse as well on a higher level dog. Correct me if I'm wrong. For anyone heavy into AKC obedience, how many times do you see someone have to lift their dog from a sitting position to do a Stand for Examination? Yes, you can teach a STAND command, or whatever you prefer to call it...but most dogs initially start out going to that autoresponse when you stop moving. It's the same thing I see now, as I take conformation classes, with dogs that were drilled to SIT. Whether that translates to the field, seems to be a split decision, but not worth the risk to me. I do believe, that depending on how much a person drills SIT, it could also become an autoresponse to pressure or stress in certain dogs. My dog is a well mannered hunting dog despite, not using SIT.

Several good points. However, I think that the response in the AKC ring in conditioned to occur within that venue, as there is a very specific pattern that occurs there. As you may recall, when heeling off leash, figure 8s, etc., the sequence is always preceded by the dog's name and the command "heel". That in itself is a cue to the dog that certain trained behaviours are expected.

wems2371 wrote:I could teach my dogs to carry a stepstool and stand on it, every time I stop too, but I have no need. SIT is just another command/trick, and it's value is up to the dog's owner. For me, as a new pointing dog owner, it wasn't worth the risk of maybe having to fix something down the road in a young dog. When I stop at heel, am clipping toenails, have the dog on the vets table or scale, have the dog waiting at the food dish, waiting to get out of or into the truck or house--WHOA is what I've used. When my dog returns with game or from bumper drills, she does a direct recall and swings into heel position, and stands at a whoa without command. The duck blind is the only time I have found any value in SIT, for my hunting dogs...and even that is not much of an issue. Do NOT think I am dismissing the value of obedience or anyone who has successfully managed SIT in a pointing dog--because I'm not. I do hope to do AKC obedience at a much later time. It's just not the holy grail to me, to have them SIT at this time...

Well said.

daniel77 · Post by **daniel77** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:16 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
daniel77 wrote: Most of the people here fall into this category it would seem, since most of us are merely training our own dogs, and are not ever going to have the experience that comes from training 100's of dogs. I never meant to infer that another poster didn't know what they were talking about, or that their experiences were "not true". My personal experiences simply tell me that this can be done rather easily without future issues resulting directly from a dog knowing the "sit" command..
Okay. Here is what you need to know but do not because you're brand-spanking-new here.

1. One of the people in this thread has trained 100's, nay, 1000's of dogs.
2. Prior to training those 1000's of dogs, this person trained horses professionally...for a couple of decades.
3.That person is telling you that you can head off later issues by waiting to teach sit till after the dog is standing their birds confidently.
4. Most of us here take part in some competitive venue. So, it's the context for our conversation. In almost all of them, sitting on point is pretty much a DQ or such a score knocker that it might as well be.

While I'm thinking about it, I want to clarify that I'm not telling you that they are right. I'm simply telling you that you're making assumptions that are incorrect.

Thank you for this response. I think there is a decent amount of misunderstanding going on about what I mean. So please take my comments at face value and feel free to disagree with me and tell me where you think I'm wrong. I really am looking for the piece of this puzzle that I am missing, and am not intending to come off as a know-it-all. Please keep your responses in a respectful tone and I will respond in kind.

First of all, when I said "most of the people", I meant in the collective sense, not just those who have directly contributed to this thread. I FULLY understand that there are those here with VAST amounts of experience with pointing dogs. I am ASSUMING, though, that 80% of the people "here" aren't really "in the business" and fit into the "novice owner" category. They are reading this thread and others, but not chipping in directly. Isn't that the type of person the experts are giving this advice to? I may well be wrong, and most everyone here is a trainer/breeder/owner who has had 100's of dogs, multiple FT champs, etc., but I suspect I'm not wrong, because then who would be asking the questions?

Just to clarify, I completely agree that DRILLING "sit" into a pup until it becomes a default or automatic response would CERTAINLY lead to later problems and is completely unnecessary for these dogs. I have made this concession in previous posts in case it was missed. I do, however, believe that "sit", or any other command, could be taught to a level that the pup understands, but isn't overdone and falling into the default command category so that it becomes a later problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my belief.

The whole potential "sit" problem seems to have two common elements as everyone has described it (including those of us who don't think being taught to "sit" is the real issue)
1) CONFUSION
2) PRESSURE
These two circumstances are ALWAYS present to varying degrees during the training of any animal. The entire goal of "training", to my mind at least, is to lessen both of them to the greatest degree possible. It is also ALWAYS the trainer's responsibility to control how much of these two things the dogs is dealing with. If the dog becomes overwhelmed by either confusion or pressure or both, it is always the trainer's fault, not the dog's. This is universal to any situation or animal, not just this "sit" problem. Can we all agree on that?

When confusion has been removed, the dog has been "taught", and when the dog is "trained," pressure is no longer needed, or is greatly lessened (this, of course, greatly depends on the individual animal). Can we all agree on that?

It would always be ill advised to purposefully put a dog into a place of confusion (not talking about proofing here). That being said, moments of confusion are to be expected throughout training, especially when the pressure begins to rise, or at the onset of something new. Can we all agree on that?

If I may be so bold as to assume we agree so far, it would matter not one tick whether the dog has been trained (not hardwired to a default, merely taught) to sit. The unwanted "sit" would certainly be that particular dog's natural response in any setting where it has been overwhelmed by confusion and/or pressure. Incidentally, any animal (people included) who is overwhelmed by confusion and pressure is going to have some type of response. It may not be extremely outwardly noticeable, but it's still there. Is where we differ in that other expressions (unless severe or extremely noticeable) of being overwhelmed are okay, but sitting is not?

I have no problem with a person waiting to teach "sit" until later on, or not at all. I'm certainly not saying you are wrong to take this approach, I just don't think it is the only approach. From what I've picked up reading these various forums and whatnot, "most people" aren't teaching their pups "whoa" until fairly late in puppyhood either. This is an assumption of mine, and may well be wrong or not apply to some or many here, but I seem to keep reading over and over again that people are waiting till a pup is darn near a year old to start working on this stuff. How do you control a pup with no "handle" at all? Isn't going to field with such a pup setting up the scenario for a lot of confusion or the making of other bad habits? I realize that not everyone is advocating not having some control over their pups, but some seem to think, at least how I've understood them, that having a usable amount of control over the pup is a bad thing.

If you are teaching "whoa" at ten weeks and use it in place of sit, I can think of absolutely nothing wrong with that method. If you are just foregoing all obedience, I don't think you've done yourself or your dog any favors. How do you let your dog out of the truck to hunt without risking them being hit by a car? They'd have to be tied to you at all times, and this would be a pain in the neck, to me at least.

There is, of course, a much simpler reason that people's thoughts differ on this. To some people, thinking this much about a dog, or it's training, is simply more involved and complicated than they really want to get, and that is fine. For those people, not understanding all of what is going on, and not having the desire to understand all of what is going on (or possibly not seeing any additional value for the effort), so as not to "get in too deep" you just don't go there. I believe that this is the thinking behind most of the "don't teach 'em to sit" advice. That's fine, but what about the people who do want to expand their horizons and really comprehend the training.

I want to break things down and completely understand them so that I can better manipulate them to do EXACTLY what I want. That's just my way, and I would hope by discussing things in depth like this, those who do desire to further their understand of matters can. Those who don't simply won't take the time to read it.

My take on the "don't teach 'em to sit" deal is that it is a wives tale of sorts, just like not saying "whoa" to a racehorse, or not backing a racehorse up. I think it can be disregarded if one so chooses and understands the pitfalls.

I also apologize for being so long winded. It has rained a lot here and I'm stuck in the house and bored to tears.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:33 pm

All of the people on here that don't teach "sit" should keep in mind that there are MANY of us on these boards that use our bird dogs for waterfowl. If a dog won't sit and down, it's useless for waterfowl.

I also think a dog is a better citizen in the house if it sits and lies down when and where told.

Just my opinion. I don't know why these threads always draw so much animosity. I'm also willing to bet that many of the people opposed to sit and down have never taught it to a dog in the correct manor.

Those simple obedience commands certainly do nothing to limit a dog's independence.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:56 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Just my opinion. I don't know why these threads always draw so much animosity. I'm also willing to bet that many of the people opposed to sit and down have never taught it to a dog in the correct manor.

I'm bettin that is just a wild generalization without a shred of evidence.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:03 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Just my opinion. I don't know why these threads always draw so much animosity. I'm also willing to bet that many of the people opposed to sit and down have never taught it to a dog in the correct manor.

I'm bettin that is just a wild generalization without a shred of evidence.

Yes, it is, but this isn't. At the large kennel I was head trainer for in Ca., and we ran 120 dogs at a time in training, we trained ALL gun dogs. Retrievers, spaniels, pointing breeds. EVERY dog that went through that kennel was fully obedience trained and that included sit and down. Did we ever have a problem? No, not if we did it. If we worked with a dog that had been beaten at home, we did.

It's common sense guys. If you're going to work your pointing dog out of a duck or goose blind, it better lie down and sit. I can tell you right now, there are untold numbers of GSP's, DD's, PP's, etc. that do double duty as a pointing dog and as a waterfowl dog. If they do, they're obedience trained.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:58 pm

gpblitz wrote:Don't ya think it's all BS? if you want your dog to sit, teach it. If you don't , don't teach sit . That simple.

It is that simple. For the life of me, I can't understand why this subject is so heated. I for one, have never said one should not teach a dog to sit. I don't do it because I don't have a need for it, Obviously, if you are hunting out of a blind or pit, your dog must know sit and down. I really haven't seen any disagreement on this. The only point that some of us are trying to make, is that the order in which commands are taught could potentially prevent a problem. Now, if you don't agree with that, that's fine, but please understand, that is the only point trying to be made here, and I don't understand why it is so hard to make it.

Also, in case there is any confusion, I believe a puppy/dog should be fully obedience trained before going to the field to work birds. It is called yard training. This is what I do, as I am sure, most of you do, as well.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:41 pm

While I am at it, I would like to apologize to everybody for having to put up with the uncalled for banter between a couple of us. Every once in a while, personalities clash. Ours did, in a big way. I wish it had not happened but it did, and I will defend myself and fight back, hopefully in a way that won't get me banned.

Charlie

Ditch__Parrot · Post by **Ditch__Parrot** » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:49 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Just my opinion. I don't know why these threads always draw so much animosity. I'm also willing to bet that many of the people opposed to sit and down have never taught it to a dog in the correct manor.

I'm bettin that is just a wild generalization without a shred of evidence.
Yes, it is, but this isn't. At the large kennel I was head trainer for in Ca., and we ran 120 dogs at a time in training, we trained ALL gun dogs. Retrievers, spaniels, pointing breeds. EVERY dog that went through that kennel was fully obedience trained and that included sit and down. Did we ever have a problem? No, not if we did it. If we worked with a dog that had been beaten at home, we did.

It's common sense guys. If you're going to work your pointing dog out of a duck or goose blind, it better lie down and sit. I can tell you right now, there are untold numbers of GSP's, DD's, PP's, etc. that do double duty as a pointing dog and as a waterfowl dog. If they do, they're obedience trained.

Now this is interesting. This thread seems to be going down the toilet in a sea of arrogance but this interests me. How about the How What and When ? In what order did you teach the commands. At what age did you start ? What are the methods that were used ? Primarily interested in the how of sit and whoa but also what was taught before and between them ? Short version is ok but like for whoa did you teach it at heel or table then post etc.. ?