daniel77, I'm going to break up your quote hope you don't mind. I'm not touching all of it just responding to a couple parts of it.
daniel77 wrote:I have no problem with a person waiting to teach "sit" until later on, or not at all. I'm certainly not saying you are wrong to take this approach, I just don't think it is the only approach.
Well I'm glad you have no problem with me waiting to teach it because that is exactly what I have done with MY youngest dog. Obviously it is not the only approach otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot button issue. The original poster posed the question asking if anyone has had a problem with teaching it as well as if anyone had an opinion on it. I should have known better but I thought I would pipe in since I have had problems with it. As well as I have changed my opinion on it based on the experience of dealing with those problems. Oh but I get it. Its just a myth and the problems that I experienced were not the result of teaching sit too early but rather from my incompetence or lack of experience in training my dogs. That is fine I have no big ego as a dog trainer.
Maybe you should start a new training topic on how to properly train sit. Though you might do well to remember that old saying about the word assume.
daniel77 wrote:From what I've picked up reading these various forums and whatnot, "most people" aren't teaching their pups "whoa" until fairly late in puppyhood either. This is an assumption of mine, and may well be wrong or not apply to some or many here, but I seem to keep reading over and over again that people are waiting till a pup is darn near a year old to start working on this stuff. .
For the most part I think you are assuming correctly. Although "most" in the dog community is far from all and you will here just as many differing opinions on this as on sit.
daniel77 wrote:How do you control a pup with no "handle" at all? Isn't going to field with such a pup setting up the scenario for a lot of confusion or the making of other bad habits? I realize that not everyone is advocating not having some control over their pups, but some seem to think, at least how I've understood them, that having a usable amount of control over the pup is a bad thing.
I sure won't claim to speak for anyone else so I will only speak to how I am training my latest pupil. First to regress I will remind you to look back at my earlier post in that I have done intro to whoa early but am waiting to formalize that training. That said at up to 5-6 months of age all training was very simple. House breaking, No,Off, Drop, In. As well as a ton of time out running and playing in fields similar to what she would be training and hunting in later on. At 5 months I started more formal training but not what you are looking for. This was intro to table, intro to birds. Come/here/recall, A turn command, e-collar conditioning, more birds and pointing work out of launchers, backing, more birds, intro to gun, A little working with the natural retrive but nowhere near formal trained retrieve work, a small amount of intro to heel but being careful not to over do it, more birds and lets see I know I'm forgetting a few things.........probably more birds, the wilder the better. If I miss something forgive me but maybe you're getting the idea.
daniel77 wrote:If you are teaching "whoa" at ten weeks and use it in place of sit, I can think of absolutely nothing wrong with that method. If you are just foregoing all obedience, I don't think you've done yourself or your dog any favors. How do you let your dog out of the truck to hunt without risking them being hit by a car? They'd have to be tied to you at all times, and this would be a pain in the neck, to me at least.
On waiting on whoa. Again this could be its own topic and once again I should know better.....but...I will say that I am waiting mostly for one reason. And in doing so I am defferring to trainers with vast amounts of experience in training the type of dog that I am looking for out of my young charge. In short I am looking for her to be my big wheelin, fire breathing covey finder. This girl was regularly showing me 400+ yard casts at 5 months old. Hunting those casts not just running mind you. She is a bold and independent hunter and I intend to do anything I can to keep from taking that away from her. So I wait. We just finished our first season of hunting together and no she wasn't tied to me at all,lol, nor was it a pain in the neck not having her perfectly obedience trained. In fact it was quite an enjoyable season watching that pup come along. I look at it as just letting her have her head for a season. Yes you can probably fully break and obedience train a dog by 6 months old if you feal the need to prove yourself as a trainer. But what are you looking for in your dog and what is your end product going to look like in comparison to what it could have been. Yes I understand that not everyone is going to be looking for a big running dog. Though in my opinion when you are looking at training a pointing dog some consideration has to be met in that a pointing dog needs to get out and hunt independently of its handler. You can't handle a pointing dog into birds. Their job is to go find them for you. I might not claim to know much about training dogs but one thing I will tell you I do know is that impatience will get you nowhere with a dog. All in good time.
daniel77 wrote:There is, of course, a much simpler reason that people's thoughts differ on this. To some people, thinking this much about a dog, or it's training, is simply more involved and complicated than they really want to get, and that is fine. For those people, not understanding all of what is going on, and not having the desire to understand all of what is going on (or possibly not seeing any additional value for the effort), so as not to "get in too deep" you just don't go there. I believe that this is the thinking behind most of the "don't teach 'em to sit" advice. That's fine, but what about the people who do want to expand their horizons and really comprehend the training.
Plenty of "I couldn't care less" dog owners in the world. I don't think you will find too many on here though. Simply "that" kind of owner doesn't bother coming to gundog forum and discussing anything about dogs. With maybe the exception of a few doing internet scouting for places to hunt.
daniel77 wrote:My take on the "don't teach 'em to sit" deal is that it is a wives tale of sorts, just like not saying "whoa" to a racehorse, or not backing a racehorse up. I think it can be disregarded if one so chooses and understands the pitfalls. .
If its just a myth than what pitfalls are there to understand ?
daniel77 wrote: I also apologize for being so long winded. It has rained a lot here and I'm stuck in the house and bored to tears.
Oh I can be just as long winded at times. Welcome to the forum. It can be a tough crowd at times but it keeps the riff raff away.