To sit or not to sit!

[Ditch__Parrot]

daniel77, I'm going to break up your quote hope you don't mind. I'm not touching all of it just responding to a couple parts of it.

I have no problem with a person waiting to teach "sit" until later on, or not at all. I'm certainly not saying you are wrong to take this approach, I just don't think it is the only approach.

Well I'm glad you have no problem with me waiting to teach it because that is exactly what I have done with MY youngest dog. Obviously it is not the only approach otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot button issue. The original poster posed the question asking if anyone has had a problem with teaching it as well as if anyone had an opinion on it. I should have known better but I thought I would pipe in since I have had problems with it. As well as I have changed my opinion on it based on the experience of dealing with those problems. Oh but I get it. Its just a myth and the problems that I experienced were not the result of teaching sit too early but rather from my incompetence or lack of experience in training my dogs. That is fine I have no big ego as a dog trainer. Maybe you should start a new training topic on how to properly train sit. Though you might do well to remember that old saying about the word assume.

From what I've picked up reading these various forums and whatnot, "most people" aren't teaching their pups "whoa" until fairly late in puppyhood either. This is an assumption of mine, and may well be wrong or not apply to some or many here, but I seem to keep reading over and over again that people are waiting till a pup is darn near a year old to start working on this stuff. .

For the most part I think you are assuming correctly. Although "most" in the dog community is far from all and you will here just as many differing opinions on this as on sit.

How do you control a pup with no "handle" at all? Isn't going to field with such a pup setting up the scenario for a lot of confusion or the making of other bad habits? I realize that not everyone is advocating not having some control over their pups, but some seem to think, at least how I've understood them, that having a usable amount of control over the pup is a bad thing.

I sure won't claim to speak for anyone else so I will only speak to how I am training my latest pupil. First to regress I will remind you to look back at my earlier post in that I have done intro to whoa early but am waiting to formalize that training. That said at up to 5-6 months of age all training was very simple. House breaking, No,Off, Drop, In. As well as a ton of time out running and playing in fields similar to what she would be training and hunting in later on. At 5 months I started more formal training but not what you are looking for. This was intro to table, intro to birds. Come/here/recall, A turn command, e-collar conditioning, more birds and pointing work out of launchers, backing, more birds, intro to gun, A little working with the natural retrive but nowhere near formal trained retrieve work, a small amount of intro to heel but being careful not to over do it, more birds and lets see I know I'm forgetting a few things.........probably more birds, the wilder the better. If I miss something forgive me but maybe you're getting the idea.

If you are teaching "whoa" at ten weeks and use it in place of sit, I can think of absolutely nothing wrong with that method. If you are just foregoing all obedience, I don't think you've done yourself or your dog any favors. How do you let your dog out of the truck to hunt without risking them being hit by a car? They'd have to be tied to you at all times, and this would be a pain in the neck, to me at least.

On waiting on whoa. Again this could be its own topic and once again I should know better.....but...I will say that I am waiting mostly for one reason. And in doing so I am defferring to trainers with vast amounts of experience in training the type of dog that I am looking for out of my young charge. In short I am looking for her to be my big wheelin, fire breathing covey finder. This girl was regularly showing me 400+ yard casts at 5 months old. Hunting those casts not just running mind you. She is a bold and independent hunter and I intend to do anything I can to keep from taking that away from her. So I wait. We just finished our first season of hunting together and no she wasn't tied to me at all,lol, nor was it a pain in the neck not having her perfectly obedience trained. In fact it was quite an enjoyable season watching that pup come along. I look at it as just letting her have her head for a season. Yes you can probably fully break and obedience train a dog by 6 months old if you feal the need to prove yourself as a trainer. But what are you looking for in your dog and what is your end product going to look like in comparison to what it could have been. Yes I understand that not everyone is going to be looking for a big running dog. Though in my opinion when you are looking at training a pointing dog some consideration has to be met in that a pointing dog needs to get out and hunt independently of its handler. You can't handle a pointing dog into birds. Their job is to go find them for you. I might not claim to know much about training dogs but one thing I will tell you I do know is that impatience will get you nowhere with a dog. All in good time.

There is, of course, a much simpler reason that people's thoughts differ on this. To some people, thinking this much about a dog, or it's training, is simply more involved and complicated than they really want to get, and that is fine. For those people, not understanding all of what is going on, and not having the desire to understand all of what is going on (or possibly not seeing any additional value for the effort), so as not to "get in too deep" you just don't go there. I believe that this is the thinking behind most of the "don't teach 'em to sit" advice. That's fine, but what about the people who do want to expand their horizons and really comprehend the training.

Plenty of "I couldn't care less" dog owners in the world. I don't think you will find too many on here though. Simply "that" kind of owner doesn't bother coming to gundog forum and discussing anything about dogs. With maybe the exception of a few doing internet scouting for places to hunt.

My take on the "don't teach 'em to sit" deal is that it is a wives tale of sorts, just like not saying "whoa" to a racehorse, or not backing a racehorse up. I think it can be disregarded if one so chooses and understands the pitfalls. .

If its just a myth than what pitfalls are there to understand ?

I also apologize for being so long winded. It has rained a lot here and I'm stuck in the house and bored to tears.

Oh I can be just as long winded at times. Welcome to the forum. It can be a tough crowd at times but it keeps the riff raff away.

[ezzy333]

My goal with my dogs is not to be in control but rather to have an independant dog that hunts for me or with me. I understand that is exactly opposite of what you want for a retreiver. The last thing I want is to raise a pup that has always been in control. I can get a robot if that is what makes me feel good. I have found that the better part of the first year is getting acquainted with birds, fields, people, and home. Pressure type training can wait till after they have had a year in the field. That includes Whoa or any steadiness training. I have no desire to see how much I can train but rather want to see how much the dog can figure out. Hope it learns to hunt the downwind side of a fence row or go to an objective that it knows will hold birds and I will do my best to keep up and flush the birds it finds. Do I go to the field with a dog that I can't control? Yep everyday but I hope with the experience and training it will want to hunt with me when I signal which direction I am going. It's kind of a thill to come over a hill and find your dog standing on point. That is what makes it all worth while.

I will continue to wait on sit, heal, whoa and let my dog learn independance and how to hunt and find birds before we start the control type stuff.

Ezzy

[hollymadsenripley]

Thanks for all the opinions and "food for thought"! Everyone is aways so willing to help and share their experrience. Thanks so much for helpin' out the newbie in the forum.

Someone asked when I get my pup The first of March! Very exccited!!

Holly

[birddogger]

My goal with my dogs is not to be in control but rather to have an independant dog that hunts for me or with me. I understand that is exactly opposite of what you want for a retreiver. The last thing I want is to raise a pup that has always been in control. I can get a robot if that is what makes me feel good. I have found that the better part of the first year is getting acquainted with birds, fields, people, and home. Pressure type training can wait till after they have had a year in the field. That includes Whoa or any steadiness training. I have no desire to see how much I can train but rather want to see how much the dog can figure out. Hope it learns to hunt the downwind side of a fence row or go to an objective that it knows will hold birds and I will do my best to keep up and flush the birds it finds. Do I go to the field with a dog that I can't control? Yep everyday but I hope with the experience and training it will want to hunt with me when I signal which direction I am going. It's kind of a thill to come over a hill and find your dog standing on point. That is what makes it all worth while.

I will continue to wait on sit, heal, whoa and let my dog learn independance and how to hunt and find birds before we start the control type stuff.

Ezzy

Good point. It is less stress on both you and the dog. I do like to do yard training though. But I keep the commands few and low pressure. I am also introducing pup to birds [never too early for that IMO] but I like to do it in a controlled situation. I do like to have some control when I start taking them to the field, for instance I will have them conditioned to come to a whistle, which can be accomplished with no pressure. I also will have started some low pressure whoa training but won't use it in the field yet. Like you and some others on here, in their first season, I pretty much just let them have fun, learn to love hunting and and hopefully become bird crazy. I don't really do any handling during this period. Like I said, I like to have some control just in case. After the first season, I will begin formal training and try to polish things up.

Charlie

[gonehuntin']

Now this is interesting. This thread seems to be going down the toilet in a sea of arrogance but this interests me. How about the How What and When ? In what order did you teach the commands. At what age did you start ? What are the methods that were used ? Primarily interested in the how of sit and whoa but also what was taught before and between them ? Short version is ok but like for whoa did you teach it at heel or table then post etc.. ?

We worked dogs in a standard four month program. The dogs learned obedience and were all force fetched using an A70 collar, the only thing we had at the time. They were steady on point, but not to wsf.

They started out learning HERE, HEEL,and WHOA. Those are the two most important commands any pointing dog can learn. They were OB trainied every day, worked in the field on a cc three days a week. That's the nice thing about training a pointing dog versus a retriever; his training continues all the way through the force breaking. After HERE, WHOA, and HEEL. All dogs were taught these three commands in the yard. WHOA was taught from the heel position. If we had any trouble with a dog, we double teamed him; the dogs chief trainer working the lead rope and a second trainer following along with a cc and flank collar on the dog to stop him on whoa. It was rare we had to do that but it works extaordinarily well.

Next, the dog went into force breaking once the three basic commands were known. They were forced ear, stick, collar. When they were out of this, it was usually at the eighth week of training. Now we'd loosen them up in the field, ccing them in on birds, shooting flyers, letting them retrieve to heel and hand. After a few weeks, the final stage was started. Now they were broken to decoys, taught sit and down. Sit was taught with the heeling stick and choke collar, down with paw pressure, then the stick. During this periond they would lay alongside a tank blind and retrieve duck and pigeon from the water. They went home at four months, a workable gundog. The pointing dogs we got were mostly GSP's. In CA., the GSP is very popular for bird and waterfowl.

All dogs went through exactly the same program except the flushing dogs were taught to work in range flushing and the pointing dogs steadied on point. We trained 120 dogs per four month session, and turned them three times a year. That's why I know it works.

[Ruffshooter]

Holly, Post Pics when you get your pup. Not all threads are this fired up. I teach my dogs to sit, because it is easier when hunting ducks, In the begining, I did have problems with the first couple dogs sitting when things were not going right in the field mostly when hot tired or I pushed the dog too much on an issue instead of knowing when to quit. Now 20 some odd years later, I have no problemswith mine or others. I teach sit still. It is a nice tool, especially at the door, near new dogs, in the blind, etc. Sitting is one step further away from moving or running than Whoa. IMHO

[birddogger]

gonehuntin, that was a pretty thorough explanation of your training methods. I have always enjoyed reading your posts, even though, I will never have dogs broke to that level.

Charlie

[birddogger]

Holly, Post Pics when you get your pup. Not all threads are this fired up. I teach my dogs to sit, because it is easier when hunting ducks, In the begining, I did have problems with the first couple dogs sitting when things were not going right in the field mostly when hot tired or I pushed the dog too much on an issue instead of knowing when to quit. Now 20 some odd years later, I have no problemswith mine or others. I teach sit still. It is a nice tool, especially at the door, near new dogs, in the blind, etc. Sitting is one step further away from moving or running than Whoa. IMHO

Is the sit command one of the first commands you teach, or does that come later for you? Just curious.

Charlie

[Greg Jennings]

We trained 120 dogs per four month session, and turned them three times a year. That's why I know it works.

"Works" means "fit for purpose". How many of those dogs went from the training plan to winning a horseback stake? None to hardly any?

My point is that things have to be read in context.

Most of us, after a while, intuit the context of a question.

If someone new, however, asks about sitting during early training, we should ask "what are you doing to do with the dog?" Sitting might be a vital skill or it might be a waste of time.

Greg J.

[gonehuntin']

We trained 120 dogs per four month session, and turned them three times a year. That's why I know it works.

"Works" means "fit for purpose". How many of those dogs went from the training plan to winning a horseback stake? None to hardly any?

Greg J.

Not a single on Greg. Ours was a GUN DOG kennel, not a field trial kennel. Some years later I opened my own kennel where I did specialize in Field Trial Labs, but that's a whole different program. I still trained a few gun dogs of all breeds, but not many. They were not a good fit with the field trial dogs.

I may be wrong, but I assume that most of the people on these forums are hunters and not field trialers.

Again, as you say, you train a dog for your purposes. For my purposes and for many hunters, that means that when you tell a dog to lie down in a corner of the house or to sit, you expect them to do that. As with all training, when it's done in balance and done correctly, there is no problem. Any and all training done incorrectly results in a problem.

[gonehuntin']

As far as order of commands, it is one of the last commands taught. Those dogs of mine that are capable, I also teach rough handling, sitting to the whistle and casting if they are capable. My dogs range at a maximum of 200 yards and I'm happy with that.

If you want advice from a field trial pointing dog trainer, I'm not your man. Field Trial Retrievers are another matter.

[Ruffshooter]

Charlie: Remember I am only training a couple dogs a year and helping folks train theirs at clinics, etc. For me generally not until around 5 to 6 months or so, once they have seen birds and are pointing and have some independence and you can see how they will handle stuff. If I have a really hyper pup I will earlier. As young pups, the sit for me is done for treats, doors etc. Just to get it into their heads as a control when 14 weeks or so. I do not have them sit in the field per command. If they sit while on the tie out that is fine. They need to be fully gun conditioned before the formal sit training in the blind and boat. By the first duck season if old enough, I want them to be able to sit for the hunt. If they lay down in the blind that is okay for me. The down command is part of the formal blind manners training.

But timing, perosnality, and ability to handle pressure are things that are important to me to help me determine when a command will be taught and how. (I think, If a dog sits on point of a bird, then, I think, one is putting too much pressure on the dog, or the dog is confused.) (I think a dog that has more drive and desire will be less likely to sit on Point.)

I am no pro so I use what works for me to get the results I want. Again, sit is not needed and can be taught at any time if so desired.

Really, I don't disagree with anything that has been written, I don't think. (Hey I am getting good at this straddling the fence thing, Huh?)

[daniel77]

daniel77, I'm going to break up your quote hope you don't mind. I'm not touching all of it just responding to a couple parts of it.exactly what I was wanting

I have no problem with a person waiting to teach "sit" until later on, or not at all. I'm certainly not saying you are wrong to take this approach, I just don't think it is the only approach.

Well I'm glad you have no problem with me waiting to teach it because that is exactly what I have done with MY youngest dog. Obviously it is not the only approach otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot button issue. The original poster posed the question asking if anyone has had a problem with teaching it as well as if anyone had an opinion on it. I should have known better but I thought I would pipe in since I have had problems with it. As well as I have changed my opinion on it based on the experience of dealing with those problems. Oh but I get it. Its just a myth and the problems that I experienced were not the result of teaching sit too early but rather from my incompetence or lack of experience in training my dogs. That is fine I have no big ego as a dog trainer. Maybe you should start a new training topic on how to properly train sit. Though you might do well to remember that old saying about the word assume.You and others seem to be under the mistaken impression that I've insinuated that anyone who has had this problem is a bad trainer. Once and for all, that is neither my opinion, nor what I've written. I have REPEATEDLY stated in my posts that there is no wrong here. My quote of "I have no problem with" means that from my perspective, or side of this issue, there is no argument with this particular part of XYZ. Taking that to mean that "I am the supreme dog trainer of the world and you should all bow to my opinions" is well beyond a stretch. I'm also unbelievably happy to see how so many of you made no mistakes whatsoever with your first few dogs. Most of the people I know, including myself, wish they could have that first one back knowing what they know now. Before someone pipes in with "yeah, I know not to teach sit now" while not owning up to having made mistakes yourselves, you feel that it was a command or misplaced order of commands that was the problem rather than your own poor timing/understanding/too much pressure for the pup/or just that pup's natural reaction when confused and under pressure. I'll readily admit that I have made all kinds of mistakes throughout my horse training career and on the dogs that I've trained as well. Fortunately, I've learned from them and am now more capable than I once was, to whatever height this current level may be. BTW, maybe this simply is a horseback field trial thing. Ya'll keep referring to "I don't know a single trainer who", and in my experience with trainers, they vary widely in their approaches. Of the four books that I have on training Bird Dogs, three have not avoided "sit" at all. I have not yet read the fourth, so I can't comment on it yet.

How do you control a pup with no "handle" at all? Isn't going to field with such a pup setting up the scenario for a lot of confusion or the making of other bad habits? I realize that not everyone is advocating not having some control over their pups, but some seem to think, at least how I've understood them, that having a usable amount of control over the pup is a bad thing.

I sure won't claim to speak for anyone else so I will only speak to how I am training my latest pupil. First to regress I will remind you to look back at my earlier post in that I have done intro to whoa early but am waiting to formalize that training. That said at up to 5-6 months of age all training was very simple. House breaking, No,Off, Drop, In. As well as a ton of time out running and playing in fields similar to what she would be training and hunting in later on. At 5 months I started more formal training but not what you are looking for.Now who is doing the assuming? This was intro to table, intro to birds. Come/here/recall, A turn command, e-collar conditioning, more birds and pointing work out of launchers, backing, more birds, intro to gun, A little working with the natural retrive but nowhere near formal trained retrieve work, a small amount of intro to heel but being careful not to over do it, more birds and lets see I know I'm forgetting a few things.........probably more birds, the wilder the better. If I miss something forgive me but maybe you're getting the idea.FWIW, I'd say that you DO have quite a bit of handle on you dogs by this stage of the game. In fact, personally, I don't think that I'd have introduced an e-collar yet.

If you are teaching "whoa" at ten weeks and use it in place of sit, I can think of absolutely nothing wrong with that method. If you are just foregoing all obedience, I don't think you've done yourself or your dog any favors. How do you let your dog out of the truck to hunt without risking them being hit by a car? They'd have to be tied to you at all times, and this would be a pain in the neck, to me at least.

On waiting on whoa. Again this could be its own topic and once again I should know better.....but...I will say that I am waiting mostly for one reason. And in doing so I am defferring to trainers with vast amounts of experience in training the type of dog that I am looking for out of my young charge. In short I am looking for her to be my big wheelin, fire breathing covey finder. This girl was regularly showing me 400+ yard casts at 5 months old. Hunting those casts not just running mind you. She is a bold and independent hunter and I intend to do anything I can to keep from taking that away from her. So I wait. We just finished our first season of hunting together and no she wasn't tied to me at all,lol, nor was it a pain in the neck not having her perfectly obedience trained.Again, I've stressed the word BASIC with commands many times here. I have no expectation, or desire for a five month old pup to be finished like a 4 year old veteran. In fact it was quite an enjoyable season watching that pup come along. I look at it as just letting her have her head for a season. Yes you can probably fully break and obedience train a dog by 6 months old if you feal the need to prove yourself as a trainer.Again, not at all what I'm suggesting. But what are you looking for in your dog and what is your end product going to look like in comparison to what it could have been. Yes I understand that not everyone is going to be looking for a big running dog. Though in my opinion when you are looking at training a pointing dog some consideration has to be met in that a pointing dog needs to get out and hunt independently of its handler. You can't handle a pointing dog into birds. Their job is to go find them for you. I might not claim to know much about training dogs but one thing I will tell you I do know is that impatience will get you nowhere with a dog. All in good time.As to handling, all that I want is the ability to stop them before they get into trouble. Whether that means running in the road, or eating a freshly caught quail. I never suggested that they should be handled like a puppet on a string. The type of horses that I train (cutting horses) are both highly trained, and work with a great deal of independence. In my experience with cutting horse, which is considerable, the two do not have to be mutually exclusive, and you don't train any animal to any decent level, competition or otherwise, by being impatient. I don't know why there is the assumption that basic obedience (which you seem to teach your own dogs) involves rigorous training, pressure, or a person who is too impatient to train a dog at their pace rather than try and finish them by 6 months.

My take on the "don't teach 'em to sit" deal is that it is a wives tale of sorts, just like not saying "whoa" to a racehorse, or not backing a racehorse up. I think it can be disregarded if one so chooses and understands the pitfalls. .

If its just a myth than what pitfalls are there to understand?The pitfall of having a dog sit when he shouldn't. I do not deny that this behavior is possible, I simply don't agree with WHY many here believe it is occurring.

I also apologize for being so long winded. It has rained a lot here and I'm stuck in the house and bored to tears.

Oh I can be just as long winded at times. Welcome to the forum. It can be a tough crowd at times but it keeps the riff raff away.

Thanks, I have thick skin, though I hope it isn't needed very often.

[daniel77]

I may be wrong, but I assume that most of the people on these forums are hunters and not field trialers.

Again, as you say, you train a dog for your purposes. For my purposes and for many hunters, that means that when you tell a dog to lie down in a corner of the house or to sit, you expect them to do that. As with all training, when it's done in balance and done correctly, there is no problem. Any and all training done incorrectly results in a problem.

I've made the same assumption, and agree totally.

[ezzy333]

I may be wrong, but I assume that most of the people on these forums are hunters and not field trialers.

Again, as you say, you train a dog for your purposes. For my purposes and for many hunters, that means that when you tell a dog to lie down in a corner of the house or to sit, you expect them to do that. As with all training, when it's done in balance and done correctly, there is no problem. Any and all training done incorrectly results in a problem.

I've made the same assumption, and agree totally.

I guess I am a hunter with a Field trial mentality. The reason I and I think most people have dogs anymore is they enjoy the dogs. It sure isn't to kill birds and feed the family. And there is no bigger thrill than seeing a dog use its head and find where the birds are. That doesn't even compare to the thrill of seeing a dog go lay in the corner when told to. So from experience and also laziness I like to train in the easiest possible way, avoid possible problems, and end up with a fun dog that is exciting in the field. Given all of that, I think common sense says train in a method that has proven to avoid as many pitfalls as possible. Just can't figure out why there would be any debate about that at all. But sure glad there is as it makes interesting reading and keeps me from having time to go teach my dog to sit before it is necessary.

Just my take,

Ezzy

[Greg Jennings]

I'm been here on GDF since just about day 1.

I don't know about lurkers, but I'm pretty confident that a good majority but not an overwhelming majority of the reasonably active posters are, have been, or are thinking about getting, involved in some kind of formal "game". Conformation, hunt tests, NAVHDA, field trialing...something.

It's been my thought that people that are passionate enough about their dogs to join up and actively post are also passionate enough to have the urge to extend their season with their dogs.

Maybe I need to set up a poll.

[Shadow]

well said Greg- I'm sort of looking at it as Ezzy does- hunter with a field trial mentality

very first pointing dog I didn't train- 2nd I did- since then I haven't trained- kind of like Ezzy has been putting it
mine will sit and lay down- sure haven't trained for it
I can count on mine to start the next season off pretty good- leaving them alone- but that's not to say the pups won't be learning-
I think if I'd worked the pups to sit and lay down they would have probably done so this first season- glad to say neither one has sat or layed down when hunting- they'll sit and lay down when we take a break- "learned behavior"

yep- in this long off season I wouldn't hesitate to get them into a field trial type game- NSTRA with these pups would be fitting- or some fun trials- money and how far to travel is the issue

[Greg Jennings]

I've created a poll in General Chat.

Maybe I've had the right idea. Maybe I'm being "tone deaf". Wouldn't be the first time

[daniel77]

I guess I am a hunter with a Field trial mentality. The reason I and I think most people have dogs anymore is they enjoy the dogs. It sure isn't to kill birds and feed the family. And there is no bigger thrill than seeing a dog use its head and find where the birds are. That doesn't even compare to the thrill of seeing a dog go lay in the corner when told to. So from experience and also laziness I like to train in the easiest possible way, avoid possible problems, and end up with a fun dog that is exciting in the field. Given all of that, I think common sense says train in a method that has proven to avoid as many pitfalls as possible. Just can't figure out why there would be any debate about that at all. But sure glad there is as it makes interesting reading and keeps me from having time to go teach my dog to sit before it is necessary.

Just my take,

Ezzy

and also wrote
by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:00 pm
My goal with my dogs is not to be in control but rather to have an independant dog that hunts for me or with me. I understand that is exactly opposite of what you want for a retreiver. The last thing I want is to raise a pup that has always been in control. I can get a robot if that is what makes me feel good.Surely you can admit that moderation is key, and having basic obedience commands is a far cry from training a robot? I have found that the better part of the first year is getting acquainted with birds, fields, people, and home. Pressure type training can wait till after they have had a year in the field. That includes Whoa or any steadiness training. I have no desire to see how much I can train but rather want to see how much the dog can figure out. Hope it learns to hunt the downwind side of a fence row or go to an objective that it knows will hold birds and I will do my best to keep up and flush the birds it finds. Hope it doesn't learn that there are more birds in that field across the interstate.Do I go to the field with a dog that I can't control? Yep everyday but I hope with the experience and training it will want to hunt with me when I signal which direction I am going. It's kind of a thill to come over a hill and find your dog standing on point.What would it feel like to cross a hill and find your pup eating his fifth quail of the day? That is what makes it all worth while.

Not trying to be a smart butt. Just saying that taking a dog out to the field, and having no control over it has it's own set of pitfalls. I personally consider those possibilities to be far worse (dead dog) and problematic (now you have a flusher, congrats) than one with this sit issue.

[ezzy333]

Not trying to be a smart butt. Just saying that taking a dog out to the field, and having no control over it has it's own set of pitfalls. I personally consider those possibilities to be far worse (dead dog) and problematic (now you have a flusher, congrats) than one with this sit issue.

Some how I don't see it as an either/or situation. But I also believe that it takes several years of training to gain the control you want. Much like raising children. I haven't been able to get them to sit either when they are young. By the time they are seven (1 year old dog) we might be able to get it done for short periods of time. My approach is that dogs know all they will ever know about hunting by the instincts they have and the things they learn from experience. All of our training is developing how we want them to act to make us happy. That development is in basic conflict with what they are wanting to do and in what they learn. So the longer I can give them to do what they want to do with minimal control is the fastest and best way to develop the dog. i do start with come for spending time around the house and yard and I do work on "Stop" when I want the dog to stop doing whatever it is doing that it shouldn't. But I seldom use them in the field. I do use an e-collar in the field but over the past several years have used it only once or twice and that was to remind the dog that come means come when we are quitting or we are getting near a road. I sure hate the thought of having one get hit on the road but I do admit it is a chance you take anytime you turn your dog lose near one. But I have never saved a dog by teaching it to sit. But if you feel more comfortable always being in control and sit helps you do that I sure don't have a problem with it. Hope you can hold off long enough so it never comes back to bite you but again it is your option.

Experience has taught me:
Teaching sit is not the difference between a good dog and a poor one.
Teaching sit too early in a pups life can come back to bite you
Waiting to teach sit till later avoids the possibility of it causing a problem
A reasonable conclusion is to teach sit later and the possibility of causing a problem is avoided.
Sounds like a slam dunk to me as I like to take the course of least resistance and I like to learn from someone else's experiences as well as my own.

Ezzy

[daniel77]

But I also believe that it takes several years of training to gain the control you want.

Having repeatedly used the words SIMPLE and BASIC with regard to OBEDIENCE, and having stated explicitly that OVERDOING anything can be detrimental, and also mentioning the word MODERATION several times, I am completely dumbfound why it keeps being thrown out that I and others want this obedience/sit thing taken to an extreme. I want some control, from both my dog and son, I do not spend all of my time looking over shoulders, or trying to control them, dog or son, like a puppet. Of the dogs that I have raised and trained, I spend A LOT of time socializing them and making them user friendly. In neither the dog or horse world, have I experienced or seen ANY evidence that having them well mannered with a degree of control is detrimental to their ability. I do not believe that the two are mutually exclusive. Do you think that most any dog who is allowed to run and learns no obedience for the first year will be a champ? Of course not. If that is what you mean by not seeing it as an either or situation, then I agree.

You can see a pic of me and my son in my avatar. He is 3 1/2 and has been duck hunting, camping a bunch of times, shooting at the range, rides horses with me regularly (including by himself under supervision), and has even been on overnight horse camping trips with me. Some of you may be shocked that I'd even consider doing some of these things with my son at his age, and you can save it. I'll also point out here, that Wyatt isn't the average 3 year old and is very smart and mature for his age. His vocabulary is stellar. No bias here. I have friends whose kids are twice as old and I wouldn't dream of taking them on any adventures the way they act. To my way of thinking, I CAN do these things with my son, BECAUSE he is well mannered and listens to me. Do I ALWAYS make him tow the line, or have him under my thumb? Of course not. What fun is that for either of us. Can I get his attention and have him do what I need him to do RIGHT NOW if need be? Yes, I can. In short, he's broke to a degree that makes him safer and allows me to do things with him that I couldn't if her wasn't somewhat broke. Let it also be known that he isn't gun shy or lacking in boldness or independence. LOL He's also NOT that kid who is throwing fits and running around in the restaurant. My dogs aren't either. Very little can ruin a hunting trip like a bad dog. Worse than wet long johns.

[vzkennels]

Daniel just because a dog doesn't sit or lay down doesn't mean he's out of control.My dogs are in control because they want to be with & please me if I run across the rd in front of a car my dog will do the same.I've never been hit yet ,neither has any of my dogs in over the 35 yrs I've owned them.

Daniel just a little observation,every post you have made has been about control,dogs,horses,& now your son & a good looking boy he is.

[daniel77]

Daniel just because a dog doesn't sit or lay down doesn't mean he's out of control.My dogs are in control because they want to be with & please me if I run across the rd in front of a car my dog will do the same.I've never been hit yet ,neither has any of my dogs in over the 35 yrs I've owned them.

Daniel just a little observation,every post you have made has been about control,dogs,horses,& now your son & a good looking boy he is.WARNING, guns are likely to creep in next. Dogs, horses, hunting, and my son are things near and dear to me. What else would you talk about? Would you prefer mushrooms and fish? I also complimented a recipe. FYI

I agree that sit and lay down aren't absolutely necessary to having a dog that is under some control. Neither is the timing of the command sit. Just please do SOMETHING. It seemed to me that a few were suggesting that not only was sit obedience not important, but having a dog under control at all is a roadblock to having a good pointer. I take issue with that thought. I can show you way more dogs that are well mannered and good bird dogs, than you can show me who sit at the wrong time.

I can't say it has happened to me while quail hunting, but I've dang sure had duck/dove/goose hunts RUINED by ill mannered/out of control pups and their owners seemed oblivious to everyone scowling at them and their lil terror. In fact, I paid to go on a teal hunt, and the guide's nephew showed up around legal shooting light, and proceeded to let his young dog run around in the decoys at daybreak. This was not helping the teal come in, and I didn't feel bad about not tipping.

I did see in an earlier post of yours and Charlie's that you both do have your dogs somewhat trained in obedience. That's my main point. Have some control. That's all.

[vzkennels]

I just find it ODD that in every post you have made other then the recipe you have to tell us how much in control of everything you are.I'm done here also.

[daniel77]

Is the thread now moving from "To sit or not to sit" to psychological musings.

That last post of mine was meant to bury the hatchet and point out that we had things in common.

The reason I talk about control is this is a thread and Forum Topic about Training. I believe that the Word Training Implies Control being necessary. If you don't have any control, you're not training your dog, your just out for a walk.

[Elkhunter]

Daniel I think the reason the majority of people who are serious bird dog trainers dont teach sit is because it takes quite a bit of pressure to break a dog completely. And a dog who sits because that is a command he is most comfortable with will cause problems down the road.

As for obedience training the only thing I teach for about the firs 9 months of the dogs life is here and kennel. No other obedience till they mature and gain their independence and personalities. You start teaching a dog sit/whoa etc at 10 weeks you will see a big difference in that dogs ability to trust himself and develop how he should.JMO The first year of hunting for my dogs usually consists of ripping birds and chasing them around. If they point one and I get to shoot it, even better. After they turn one year then I usually introduce more formal training. Thats just me though.

The whole issue goes down to what sort of trained dog you want. If you just want a hunting dog that will point birds for you, then I doubt teaching sit will cause many problems. If you want to compete then I would probably avoid.

[birddogger]

Charlie: Remember I am only training a couple dogs a year and helping folks train theirs at clinics, etc. For me generally not until around 5 to 6 months or so, once they have seen birds and are pointing and have some independence and you can see how they will handle stuff. If I have a really hyper pup I will earlier. As young pups, the sit for me is done for treats, doors etc. Just to get it into their heads as a control when 14 weeks or so. I do not have them sit in the field per command. If they sit while on the tie out that is fine. They need to be fully gun conditioned before the formal sit training in the blind and boat. By the first duck season if old enough, I want them to be able to sit for the hunt. If they lay down in the blind that is okay for me. The down command is part of the formal blind manners training.

But timing, perosnality, and ability to handle pressure are things that are important to me to help me determine when a command will be taught and how. (I think, If a dog sits on point of a bird, then, I think, one is putting too much pressure on the dog, or the dog is confused.) (I think a dog that has more drive and desire will be less likely to sit on Point.)

I am no pro so I use what works for me to get the results I want. Again, sit is not needed and can be taught at any time if so desired.

Really, I don't disagree with anything that has been written, I don't think. (Hey I am getting good at this straddling the fence thing, Huh?)

Ruffshooter, thanks for responding to my question, and I don't think you are straddling the fence at all. It sounds to me like you are doing pretty much the way everybody, other than one poster has suggested. BTW, teaching it too early may not cause a problem with alot of dogs, but why take a chance. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from reading your post, I think you agree.

Charlie