Is this normal...

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vino1972
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Is this normal...

Post by vino1972 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:50 am

I have a 3 mo GWP and he had his 1st exposure with a pigeon today. I tied his wings together and the dog went after him like a mad man. However, he would not let go of the bird. I literally had to pry his mouth open to get the bird. After a few times with releasing the pigeon I decided to hide the pigeon under a bush. The dog sniffed around and located the bird, but the the didn't point the bird. He just went after and mouthed it again. Is there something I should be working on with the dog, or is this normal behavior with a dog this young. Also, why didn't he point the pigeon out, instead of just going after it?? Also, previously I have been hiding a frozen pheasant in the yard and putting pheasant scent on it, he also mouths that and I have to pry his mouth open with that too.Thanks for your help

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Sharon
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by Sharon » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:16 pm

At 3 months it's common. Don't rush the dog. He will point when he is ready. At 3 months i wouldn't be doing all that. i would be letting pup explore and chase birds. jmo
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:12 pm

vino1972 -

Your dog is bird crazy. You have proved that beyond a shodow of doubt. That is great.

NOW before you create a monster or totally screw up what sounds to be a very nice youngster...KNOCK IT OFF WITH THE BIRDS!!!!!

At three months, you should be playing with, bonding and play training the dog. Take him for walks, let him chase meadow larks and such and let him grow up.

Get him to look for you and go with you.

In between your playing with the dog over the next three or four months, check out a couple of good dog training books and maybe a video or two to find out the RIGHT way to introcduce a dog to birds, because...what you are doing...ain't the best way. Trust me on that.

There is lots of time...do not be in a hurry to get into birds with your youngster. the more driven a dog is to find birds, the more you need to have controls in place when you do introduce birds formally. From the brief description you provided...I'd say your pup has more than enough drive and that kind of drive, if uncontrolled or allowed to go in a wrong direction, can be a real handful to bring around later on.

Have fun with oyr dog, teach it to come, to kennel up, to turn, to stop, to heel and all that. You have until next September to get all of that in place. Then you will have a dog. After you have a dog, THEN you can concern yourself with the Bird part of the bird dog.

RayG

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Re: Is this normal...

Post by dillardben » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:30 pm

Why should the pup point the frozen pigeon? He has absolutely no doubt he can catch it. Pups will learn to point what they think will escape if they don't. They learn by finding, knocking and chasing. This is relatively easy if you have a lot of wild birds at your disposal. Most people don't. You need to be more deliberate when using pigeons or pen raised quail. You need to make sure the pup won't catch the bird. Launchers work good with pigeons. He might not point the first one or the 5th one but he will point them if he has any pointing instinct bred in. When he makes game and does not point, launch the bird. It won't take long for him to learn that he can't catch a pigeon in flight no matter how fast or how far he runs. If you keep using frozen pigeons, it's an insult to his intelligence and may ruin his pointing instinct. I've had plenty of pups pointing at that age but you don't need to rush. The experience needs to stimulate the pointing instinct not destroy it.

vino1972
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by vino1972 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:15 pm

Thanks for your help. I have watched theGeorge Hicox video and he suggests to inroduce the bird and gun at an early age. I also need to clarify. I used live pigeons, but prior to that I had been using a frozen phaesant to play fetch. I will take your advice and take it slow, working on mastering the commands. This is my first bird dog so I am as anxious as he is to take him hunting. He is an indoors dog too and sometimes I look around and see him creeping on the cat. I know he has a strong prey drive. Thanks again.

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Sharon
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by Sharon » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:36 pm

That's the problem with books.

What is an "early age" ?

I bet George would say 5 -7 weeks depending on the confidence of the young dog. Could be wrong.

Not your fault Vino. Unless you've trained 10 dogs, books are all we have. :)
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by snips » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:03 am

You are teaching the pup "not" to point. Get him on good flying quail or wild birds when a little older. He needs flying birds...
brenda

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Ruffshooter
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by Ruffshooter » Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Vino the birds are fine but don't lock the wings, let it fly off. The dog knows the scent of the bird it caught, now it knows. So don't lock the wings, let it fly, let the pup chase the bird it can not catch.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

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vino1972
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by vino1972 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:13 pm

Rick- How would you suggest planting the bird when I do re-introduce birds to him? Thanks for your help

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twofeathers
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by twofeathers » Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:39 pm

My pup did act like that with dead birds at first also even wounded birds(son has a bb gun). After lots of walks afield and sparrows and smaller birds taking off while he tried to catch he started to figure out he couldn't just catch them with his speed so he had to sneak'em. It was even funnier when he learned that with flies last summer. Seeing a gsp go on point in your house on a fly is something that will make you laugh out loud.

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Re: Is this normal...

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:23 pm

snips wrote:You are teaching the pup "not" to point. Get him on good flying quail or wild birds when a little older. He needs flying birds...
yep good flyers where he learns that he can not catch them
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Ruffshooter
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:45 am

Vino:
I don't use pigeons much but, you would just disorientate the bird. Rock it or spin it for a few seconds just prior to tucking it under some cover, cover that the bird feels safe in. To be able to keep your bird you can tie a short cord to it legs and tie a check cord to it you can hang on to or tie a short length of garden hose to. (They get tired and land out aways), but if there are tree near by they may go up there, now what? )

Quail: you would rock the bird and just chuck it into some good cover. If you want it to be more disorientated to stay longer rock it longer with a loose head and place it in a tunnel of grass or cover. Or check on here and find the pigeon coop posts and set up a coop for the birds to fly back to after training.

Chuckars: take the bird by the legs spin it in a circle like a fast pich, soft ball pitch (well not so fast slowly, don't want their legs to fall off), then just drop them head first into some tall cover.

Pheasant: You would tuck the head under the wing and place it under some cover that covers the bird.

Don't over do the girations as you can kill the bird or give it a wicked brain rattle.

Any way this is what I do. The key as stated before by everyone is good strong flying birds.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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Re: Is this normal...

Post by mcbosco » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:29 pm

I used a mesh bag rather than hard plant them when mine was very young. The flapping in the mesh bag really got his attention and he pointed really well but eventually they need to learn on a bird that can fly away.

At 3 months obedience training is what you need to focus on.

BeagleFan
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by BeagleFan » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:18 am

Poor Pigeon.............

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ecater2218
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by ecater2218 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:31 pm

I hve taken Queen to the field 4 times this week and she has pointed field birds twice. She has bumped many other field birds and is figuring out that she connot catch them. I put a bell on her collar so I know her whereabouts and she returns to the whistle. We are having SO MUCH FUN!! Oh yes, she is 4 months old.

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AzDoggin
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:16 pm

BeagleFan wrote:Poor Pigeon.............
:o

When my Britt was about 3 months old, I shot bird with my .22. She got to it and RAN OFF and munched on it for about the next hour. It was absolutely hilarious. I knew then that birds were what made her go.

Agree with the others, though. Time outdoors just chasing stuff up, an lots of time getting socialized (or getting "power steering" was how Delmar Smith coined it, IIRC.) Your dog'll hunt. Have FUN!!!

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Sharon
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:22 pm

ecater2218 wrote:I hve taken Queen to the field 4 times this week and she has pointed field birds twice. She has bumped many other field birds and is figuring out that she connot catch them. I put a bell on her collar so I know her whereabouts and she returns to the whistle. We are having SO MUCH FUN!! Oh yes, she is 4 months old.

Exactly!
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rustyrat
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by rustyrat » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:01 am

yes your dog is normal, as several have stated in different ways the bird needs to fly away, the farther away the better. i have listened to similar stories for years. use pigeons, the dog obviously likes them and they will work much better than any other bird and her is why. once the prey drive is exhibited you don't want the dog to catch the bird period. it will still happen once in a while but prevention is the best medicine. quail and even chukars land and the dog can gain satisfaction by chasing and catching the bird. the pigeons won't come down. a $3.00 or even a $6.00 pigeons is trivial compared to the cost of the dog. how to plant?? in the order of cost 1) hold the bird head down for several minutes, tuck head under wing, extend legs, tap him in the back and plant'em 2) kick boxes a simple wire box with string attached if desired. 3) elctronic release traps. 1 & 2 usually require a buddy or lots of skill. with the electronic releases you can get more done quicker if you but two or more traps in one spot. quail are by far the worst for young dogs and chukars do not work at all when wet, but if its dry try setting a pair of chukars, its great for the dogs Note: i always start with quail, in the beginning catching isn't so bad and sometimes pigeons and chukars retaliate and can cause different problems.

jim

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A/C Guy
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by A/C Guy » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:59 am

vino1972 wrote:I have a 3 mo GWP and he had his 1st exposure with a pigeon today. I tied his wings together and the dog went after him like a mad man. However, he would not let go of the bird. I literally had to pry his mouth open to get the bird. After a few times with releasing the pigeon I decided to hide the pigeon under a bush. The dog sniffed around and located the bird, but the the didn't point the bird. He just went after and mouthed it again. Is there something I should be working on with the dog, or is this normal behavior with a dog this young. Also, why didn't he point the pigeon out, instead of just going after it??
You are a victim of believing all the stories you heard or read about 6 month old puppies that are world champion field trials dogs. As others has stated, your dog is absolutely normal. Normal is good. Don't believe the stories when someone tries to tell you that they once had a 6 month old dog that would point, back, was steady to shot, and retrieved.
The more time that you spend bonding now, the easier it will be to train the dog later; when it is mature. Dogs LOVE to please their master. Enjoy the process. Comparing your puppy to some fairy tale story dog will only lead to frustration and discontent.

Have you tried "wing on a string" yet with your puppy?
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madduckdog
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Re: Is this normal...

Post by madduckdog » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:59 pm

I am not a expert. I am on my second dog he is 9 mo now and has started to point wild quail and woodcock.

Some one told me last month a few wild bird encounters is better than many tame Bird encounters.

I beleive this to be correct.

My dog was pointing tame birds at 3 mo or so but did not point wild birds he would bump them. I bought a launcher and pushed the button as soon as he made scent that helped. What did the best was finding a wild covie of quail after season on land, I could not hunt any way. After 3 or 4 times of finding that covie and hunting singles he started to point them then woodcock.

the dog needs to figure out that he cannot catch them or that if he has a chance to catch he needs to stop to pounce ie point.

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