4 month old gsp training

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desertcountrygsp
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4 month old gsp training

Post by desertcountrygsp » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:33 pm

I have a 4 month old gsp that im training. She is doing good with pigeons. she will hold point on a bird, but when the pigeon walks away, she will chase after him. I clipped their wings to prevent them from flying too far. I make her hold point til I get to the bird to flush him then let her retrieve the bird. I think its just the puppy in her chasing the bird. Any suggestions? Also, I have her trained to here and started on heel today with e-collar. Worked the whoa post a couple times for just a few minutes, nothing long. I only train about 10-15 minutes a day depending on how she is doing. Any input would be helpful. Thanks

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smokinsam
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by smokinsam » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:46 pm

I would wait a few more months to start your training.
a minimum of 6-8 months (some would say thats even to young) but I guess it depends on the dog to.your pups not doing anything wrong by chasing pigeons.hes a puppy thats what he should be doing.The first thing you should be teaching that dog is obedience.think of it as a foundation for everything else.put the e-collar and whoa post away until thats done.JMO

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AzDoggin
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:10 pm

The pups a baby. If you want to turn her off of birds, start using that e-collar around birds at 4 months.

Totally agree with above post. Teach her to be a good citizen, and take her out and show her HOW MUCH FUN birds are. Her time will come for the formal training on birds.

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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by gspkimber » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:58 pm

Could not agree more to the above posts. Let the pup be a pup.

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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:13 pm

X4. e-collar and whoa post are a couple of the worst things you could be doing at this age. Take your time and you will reap the rewards when your puppy is older.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

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snips
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by snips » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:32 pm

UGH!!!!! I cannot believe anyone would use an ecollar on a 4 mo old puppy!!! Please let this guy grow up and have fun!!!
brenda

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desertcountrygsp
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by desertcountrygsp » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:44 pm

snips,

I would like for you to know that there are several posts (here and on other sites) that suggest you put the collar on the dog and let her run with it and put it on when you feed them. Also, the tri-tronics people told me this at a show last weekend to get them used to wearing the collar. Im not energizing the collar, but letting her wear it. Also, other handlers have used who post and live birds from 9 weeks. If that training doesnt work for you, then say so without throwing in your attitude. i was just asking a simple training question.

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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:07 pm

desertcountrygsp, you stated that you had started training here and heel with an e-collar. Anybody would take that to mean you are using it. You asked for suggestions and nobody copped an attitude with you. Chill out, take it easy and enjoy the forum. Also, just because you know of people who are using a whoa post with a 9 week old puppy doesn't mean it is the right way to go. If you don't want to here other's opinions, why ask? :?

Charlie
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Ditch__Parrot
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:45 am

Ignoring the age issues for a minute,
desertcountrygsp wrote:she will hold point on a bird, but when the pigeon walks away, she will chase after him. I clipped their wings to prevent them from flying too far.
In my opinion this is where your trouble begins. You want the bird to fly off when the dog breaks point. Don't clip the wings. If you think walking off could still be a problem with your birds put them in a launcher. For me, I don't teach my dogs to point, the birds do, and they do it by flying off as soon as the dog breaks rather they do so on their own or I'm pushing the launcher button. If retaining your training birds is a major issues card them. Adjusting the card size so that they will fly out of dogs sight but not into the next county. Or better yet use homing pigeons.
desertcountrygsp wrote:I make her hold point til I get to the bird to flush him then let her retrieve the bird.
IMO this is where the car crashed. Ok I'm assuming (yep I know better) that she is retrieving the live wing clipped bird for you and not a shot bird. Since she has figured out that she can catch the bird, Why point ?? Since she already has this in her head now I would take her off the birds for awhile then make darn sure she doesn't get her mouth around another unless its been shot over her and don't go rushing that either. My suggestion, spend the next month or two socializing the crud out of her. Then go put her on birds she cant catch.

Leave the post alone for now. Start her whoaing in front of her food dish at first. I don't even say the command. Start to put the bowl down she moves towards it raise it up. Repeat. They catch on real quick. Once its down if she moves pick her up and move her back where she was. Repeat until she is standing waiting. Tap her on the head say ok and walk away. Once she has that down then move to the table. Or start out feeding her on the table is even better.

OK back to the age. IMO Your putting too much on her (and yourself) too soon. SLOW DOWN, RELAX, HAVE FUN.
Image

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birddogger
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by birddogger » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:57 am

Well said!!

Charlie
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:14 am

I was about to write a full response here but, Ditch Parrot hit it perfectly.
4 months; age is an issue. especsially for the whoa post.
Pups learn by doing. Your pup will learn it can not catch birds if you don't clip the wings.
Let pup explore learn about its environment the smells, feels, and to know that you are around even when the pup moves aways. Dont' always be so quick to train. I am talking about formal bird dog training. Basic obedience okay for safety and house mannners. Don't talk to it to much. etc.
Take it to the field and woods often. Let him roam.
If you want a bold, confident, intellegent and stylish pup let it learn with minimal quidance from you at this point. Once you dog gets a bit older (age depends on the dog but at least 9 months or more). You can start a full training program.

For now enjoy watching your pup learn. You will be surprised at how much you will learn if you watch your pups body lanquage as it is learning. This will help you with your timing in training when you do your formal program.
Good luck.
Rick
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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AzDoggin
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by AzDoggin » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:57 am

I was reading last night that you should consider pointing to be about 95% instinct and 5% training (Ben Williams - http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Dog-Ben-O-Wi ... 354&sr=1-1).

That being the case, the objective right now is the stimulate and enhance the instinct. I don't think you can go wrong with lots of exposure to wild birds. It's fun for everybody!!

Hey, I know you are just trying to do everything to get the most out of your pup. These folks on here have tons of experience, and when they give opinions (which sometimes have some differences), it means something.

So put on your helmet and buckle the chin strap when you make a post, and enjoy the dog and the training process. :)

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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by D2shorthairs » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:49 am

IMO you are starting formal training to young. I also agree with Ditch Parrot that you are using birds the opposite of the way they should be used. I've gotten many pups young and older to hold point for quite some time using nothing but wild flying or wild birds and NO TRAINING from me. Just enhancing their natural instincts.

A pro trainer I know who has trained shorthairs for over 45 years, multiple NFCs, futurity winners, many many FCs, HOF dogs, he is in the HOF himself, and many hunting dogs told me: A dog is going to be a pup sometime in his life. You can let him be a pup when he is a pup or you can expect him to break training and act like a pup later in life. He doesn't start formal training until after they are a year old and had a season under their belt. He let's them use their natural abilities and learn to be a bird dog on their own. You put them on wild birds and let them learn then you refine them with training. It also keeps their independence in them so they will go and hunt and not be a machine that only moves when you tell them to. They handle training better when they are older and don't need as much training after good bird experience. His advice has worked very well for me.

David

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snips
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by snips » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:51 am

desertcountrygsp wrote:snips,

I would like for you to know that there are several posts (here and on other sites) that suggest you put the collar on the dog and let her run with it and put it on when you feed them. Also, the tri-tronics people told me this at a show last weekend to get them used to wearing the collar. Im not energizing the collar, but letting her wear it. Also, other handlers have used who post and live birds from 9 weeks. If that training doesnt work for you, then say so without throwing in your attitude. i was just asking a simple training question.
Sorry the attitude...But I see way too many dogs over obedienced way too early. Using an ecollar for heel is not the way to do it, as a person that had top obedience dogs I waited until they knew they were a birddog first and that was a yr old or beyond before starting any formal obedience training. I do not use the E at all for heeling, once field training begins dogs that have been worked on heeling with an E, first time you nick them for handling or chasing, you stand a chance of dog coming to heel...They may revert to what they were taught the E means...Same as Sit, dog wants to please you so sometimes instead of Whoa, they Sit...What do you think Ecollar companies will tell you, train another way without the Ecollar?????? They WILL have a way of training every behavior WITH the E.... They are trying to sell a product...Same as their videos, everything is trained with a E....Putting a pup on live GOOD FLYING birds is the way to go....Let him learn to run and hunt and let the birds teach him to point. You will have a much better dog 2 -3 yrs down the road...Have fun and let that pup have fun...
brenda

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desertcountrygsp
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by desertcountrygsp » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:15 pm

Thanks to all for your input. E-collar is not being turned on and will not for a while. Just want her to get used to having it on her neck. Will continue with the daily walks and obedience training.

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AzDoggin
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Re: 4 month old gsp training

Post by AzDoggin » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:19 pm

Hey, DesertCountry, you want to read some interesting stuff, there is a thread in the "members only" forum about hunting with trialing dogs. In it, a gentleman whose name is Charlie Rose (I believe) posted this information:
This FC field trial dog (my dog Bullett)spent his first five years guiding wild bird hunts for me an average of over 80 days a year hunting every species of upland birds, Ducks, and Wild Hogs from Texas to Washington State before I ever started breaking him.

Larry Brown has said and written on many occasions that he was one of the best wild pheasant dogs he ever walked behind. Bullett has placements and/or wins in everything from horse back AA stakes to walking GD and LGD stakes.

He was nearly six before I broke him steady to wing and shot (always let him break on the rise) and he finished his FC in under four years with all of his placements coming in adult "major" stakes. He accumulated 12 championship points by winning four of 6 trials over a 10 month period from Feb14 08-Jan 24 09.

He'll be 9 in May and gets better every time we put him on the ground.CR
Most folks, me included, won't wait until age 6 to "break" a dog. It's also important to note that he hunted an awful lot with him.

In contrast, here was a quote about one of Charlie's other GSP's:
Trouble (Bullett Daughter) started the hunting season this year at 13 months of age. A couple of friends of mine "challenged" me to show them how my "hot trial prospect" would do braced with their hunting dogs. Eight hours later, and three very hard earned coveys were produced, held to the gun by Trouble. Three coveys were all that were found that day. By noon their dogs were shot and had given up, she hunted hard the whole day. She's never been on even a check cord and their dogs were barely controllable with e collars... .
This isn't to say one training style is better than another - just to point out that success can be had with alternative methods.

Good luck with your pup!!

Here is the link for the thread. Definitely a superb read. This forum is an amazing resource. http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 1&start=15

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