all postive training>>

cerfur · Post by **cerfur** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:56 am

So I have a 10 Month Old Clumber spaniel pup she has most of the basic obediance down now I am looking start her hunt traing this spring and everything I have read and have been told is that this breed does not respond to negative stimulous. Ecollars dont work with them ear pinching ect.. I have sen this if I give her a harsh correction she often just shuts down and becomes stubborn any sugestions on how to train a dog without using harsh stimulous??

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:21 am

I love her! We had one in here to train and she did great! But she had already been on alot of birds. Have you done this yet? Would really bold her up...If they are not bird crazy then it can be hard to give a correction...The one Rick had handled basic training nicely.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:30 am

Brenda:
Are they still very birdy dogs?
Do they push there way into the thick for the wood cock?
What kind of intellegence do they have.
Alway like the looks and attitude when I saw one. Kind of like a lumbering old gentleman.

cerfur · Post by **cerfur** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:54 am

oh not to worry Bella defintly loves birds and she will follow one anywhere she also has thing for bunnys...I am not worried about her being birdy and her nose is incredible like a hound just looking for some pointers thats all!

ruffshooter for the most part from what i have seen even the dogs from show lines are quite birdy, Bella will punch through just about any cover here in Massachusetts we dont have many fields I chose her because they are built for for heavy cover they are considered to have above avarge intellegence.
Alot of folks dont like them because

A. they are very slow in the field

B. they are impossible to find never mind a field bread one and when you do find one they cost a mint...

C. they shead like crazy!!!!!!!!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:04 pm

The one Rick had in here was a hunting fool...

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:09 pm

I am assuming they are pointing dogs. Is that correct? I had never heard of them.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:52 pm

Would have been better to have started when she was younger.

But bring her in the house, put her in a hallway with the doors closed, toss an old rolled up sock, and trade her retrieves for a treat. Repeat until she is full and understands she is to bring you things that fall from the sky.

Teach her to sit with your hands and treats.

Teach her to come with treats.

But I think it is myth that they can't take the e-collar on the lowest levels if they know what is expected first. E-collars used sparingly and on low settings are the savior for soft, hard headed dogs.

I would also buy Pam Kadlec's book on training soft spaniels, do a Google for Boykin Spaniel.

It may take some time, but you can train a dog without force, or at least without pain.

Neil

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Bird Dogger, They are flushers.

I am glad to hear they still got the hunt. They seem like very comfortable dogs and if they love birds, that is all the better.

Enjoy.
Rick

cerfur · Post by **cerfur** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:52 am

Neil

THANK YOU for the book info! I have taught her to retrive getting her to bring it to me is about 80% she needs a bit more work. She will come for a treat no problem. I am having a hard time with the sit comand because as soon as she gets next to me she sits down lol so if you got a pointer on that would be great! She also can find a pheasent sented bumper just about anywhere, but thats as far as I have gotten. But again thanks for the info!!!
-ryan

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:42 am

"All positive training"

For the record, there is no such thing.

EvanG

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:18 am

For the record, unless it's an import, there's no such thing in this country as a working Clumber--probably hasn't been in a half century. Clumbers in their place of origin are half the size of those here and let's say a wee bit more ambulatory http://www.workingclumber.co.uk/ .

But if the gentleman's attempting to work his Clumber, he's to be applauded, whatever his choice of training regimens.

Now, Evan, why don't you go over to the "teach, train and test" thread and help Neil out by clarifying how e-collars are used on 9-week-old Lab puppies at full intensity? Also wondering if the retired trainer cited up there happens to be Roy McFall?

MG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:39 am

Ryan,

I think you are saying she sits before you give the command and when you don't want her to do so. Just start walking and ignore her. She will learn to sit only when you are standing still.

I think you will get a lot from Pam's book, I did.

You don't have to train "all positive", but you can. Thousands of non-sporting dogs are trained to very high levels for TV and the movies with no pain, NONE!!!!

But I really think you are worrying too much about the "all positive" thing. If you are fair, and always make sure she knows why she is being corrected, even soft dogs can take a lot. You get in trouble with the soft spaniels when you try to force them to do something they do not understand, then they bull up and quit. Just go slow with lots of love and repetitions (not so much as to bore her though), she will be just fine. I have never said you do not have to be firm with them at times, you just don't have to hurt them, you can usually do much with your voice and body langauge.

Part of the problem with anyone with a full time job, they try to do all their training for the week on a Saturday morning. Dogs learn better in small doses repeated 4 or 5 times a day. Keep it fun, with lots of breaks.

Neil

cerfur · Post by **cerfur** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:42 pm

Neil again thanks for the advice! You have eased my fears of having to train her without some correction. As far as working clumbers in the US forgive me I am not much for termanology but there are multiple breeders with clumbers that are bread for hunting or "field bred" here is one http://www.creswickclumbers.com/index.php
there are a few more many of the breeders have brought over many dogs from the UK and yes bella has some UK clumber in her

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:51 pm

crackerd wrote:Now, Evan, why don't you go over to the "teach, train and test" thread and help Neil out by clarifying how e-collars are used on 9-week-old Lab puppies at full intensity? Also wondering if the retired trainer cited up there happens to be Roy McFall?

MG

I have no idea what kind of lunatic would strap an e-collar on a 9 week old pup, but it's hard to imaging that it's Roy. He came around slowly to e-collars back in the day, but I know he's too good a trainer to do something that irresponsible.

EvanG

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:11 pm

EvanG wrote:"All positive training"

For the record, there is no such thing.

EvanG

THANK YOU!!!

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:47 pm

birddogger wrote:
EvanG wrote:"All positive training"

For the record, there is no such thing.

EvanG
THANK YOU!!!

Charlie

If there is I hope the results are better with our dogs than it is with the kids of today.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:40 pm

Ezzy,

I am sure you have heard it before, but dogs are not little people in fur coats. Child rearing and dog training have nothing in common.

Let's help the guy train his dog,

Neil

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:43 am

I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:02 am

snips wrote:I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....

Thats sure been my experience. The main difference is the dogs seem to be smarter or at least train quicker. Took me over 2 years to house break the kids and only 2 months to do the dogs. They both need positive feed back when doing things right and a little negative reinforcement seems to help when they are intentionally blowing you off and that doesn't mean you have to physically punish them but I haven't seen the downside of it if you do it in the appropriate manner. But I think it is something you need to figure out on your own and see what fits your style. I do think animals and people need to know there are consequences to their actions.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 am

crackerd wrote:
Also wondering if the retired trainer cited up there happens to be Roy McFall?

MG

Roy was never a trainer, but a most competent amateur. Before he went to the ecollar, he had the black gloves. When he put them on, the dogs quit "putting him on".

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:15 pm

Don't really know what the clumbers are like on your side of the puddle but some pretty good work bred ones are now on the go over here. A clumber has now won an any variety spaniel trial here (novice) .......that basically means it beat springers and cockers and some of them can really "go!" I've got a friend with a work bred clumber bitch - unfortunately untrained. She is so fast that on a couple of occasions she has managed to catch wild pigeons before they got properly off the ground ! He now has another clumber pup of very similar breeding, I'm going to be training her for him. Even at 5 months she will already gallop across a water filled little valley then find and retrieve to hand a marked dummy from the wood on the far bank.

I am looking forward to training this one - she will be my first ever clumber ! The work bred clumbers here weigh considerably less than the show bred ones and they are in general smaller in size - think of a big springer in size.

Bill T.

cerfur · Post by **cerfur** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:19 pm

currently Bella weights 48 pounds at 10 months old so she will most likely be on the smaller side! Great to here some one else will be training a clumber!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:53 pm

snips wrote:I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....

You would be hard pressed to find an active psychologist, either animal or child, to agree with that statement.

There are studies of children raised in the wild, and the lower primates raised as children that substantiates my position.

Folks, I don't just make this stuff up, I could be more mannerly in presenting it, but it does not change the science behind my pronouncements.

Dogs are not little kids, and should not be trained the same way.

Neil

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:23 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
crackerd wrote:
Also wondering if the retired trainer cited up there happens to be Roy McFall?

MG
Roy was never a trainer, but a most competent amateur. Before he went to the ecollar, he had the black gloves. When he put them on, the dogs quit "putting him on".

GH, were they

"velvet"

gloves?

To clarify--Evan--I was asking if the original poster of the teach/train/test thread was under Roy's tutelage--not whether Roy used an e-collar, specifically on a puppy that was barely weaned. I reiterate: Nobody in their right mind does that, and retriever FT trainers are in the rightest of minds at reading their dogs than anyone. But they don't get puppies to read in the first place.

Neil, as for this all-positive tangent, no pain, no discomfort, etc.--a football analogy for you. And let's use children because their training is indeed germane to the comparison, as ezzy and others have noted. A blue-chip recruit doesn't get to choose the Crimson Tide from his hundred scholarship offers based on how pretty he fills out his uniform. He has to play the game, and it ain't two-handed touch. Has to be exposed to a contact sport and you better believe dog training for competition is a contact sport ,too. Believe you've noted that you don't steady your spaniels, and certainly don't force fetch them for retrieving. See, those are the bonafides a dog had better have built into it if it's playing the game, or games. Even li'lo spaniel hunt tests.

Bill, congratulations on getting a Clumber to work with--expect the invite to Balmoral to be screened for Sandringham when the Princess Royal finds out about it.

MG

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Neil wrote:
snips wrote:I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....
You would be hard pressed to find an active psychologist, either animal or child, to agree with that statement.

There are studies of children raised in the wild, and the lower primates raised as children that substantiates my position.

Folks, I don't just make this stuff up, I could be more mannerly in presenting it, but it does not change the science behind my pronouncements.

Dogs are not little kids, and should not be trained the same way.

Neil

I think psychologists are part of the problem to begin with!!

So, there have been studies of children raised in the wild. Well then, I guess that proves it, you have to be right. :roll: :roll: :roll: I am sorry Neil, but you are really reaching now.

Charlie

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:11 pm

I work as a detention deputy at our county jail here and can tell you we have a whole facility full of people who were raised on positive training. They also happen to be our return customers and the people who end up doing prison time. I tend to agree with the fact that training dogs and raising children has a correlation. You have to lay out the groundwork, make sure they understand what you want from them and expect of them, give them the opportunity to succeed, correct them with the proper degree of discipline or punishment if the situation calls for it, and repeat giving them the opportunity to succeed and the discipline/punishment phase. Eventually they catch on and are eager to please their trainer/parent. Good thing dogs catch on faster than children. At least a dog can't pick up the phone and call the police or DHS or child protective services when they are disciplined. It happened today at work as a matter of fact. Darn kids. If I would have done that growing up my dad would have wore my butt out.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:18 am

crackerd wrote:[

Neil, as for this all-positive tangent, no pain, no discomfort, etc.--a football analogy for you. And let's use children because their training is indeed germane to the comparison, as ezzy and others have noted. A blue-chip recruit doesn't get to choose the Crimson Tide from his hundred scholarship offers based on how pretty he fills out his uniform. He has to play the game, and it ain't two-handed touch. Has to be exposed to a contact sport and you better believe dog training for competition is a contact sport ,too. Believe you've noted that you don't steady your spaniels, and certainly don't force fetch them for retrieving. See, those are the bonafides a dog had better have built into it if it's playing the game, or games. Even li'lo spaniel hunt tests.

MG

MG,

You have made a lot of wrong assumptions.

I played Major college football for a team at that time a lot better than those wimps from the SE, we had the best players money could buy, and where many were animalistic, and might have been better trained if treated like dogs, they weren't. Dogs aren't people - we must agree to that or we cannot have an intelligent discourse. (I am tempted to change my argument, because I doubt many parents are strapping e-collars on their kids or force fetching them to do their homework, but it would be disingenuous).

The guy asking the question wants to have fun with his Clumber, not win field trials.

My Boykiins are steady to flush, shot, and fall, and hup on command, they will honor on retrieve or a pointing dog on point. While not FFed, I have had one in the last 12 years give up on a retrieve, ONE. They would not be competitive in a spaniel field trial, but would do OK in hunting tests to Senior level.

I have several hundred pointing dog field trial wins, my dogs compete at the highest level in my venue, and I am rarely able to train "All positive", but I will keep trying.

Neil

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:49 am

I'm not sure how I would get on "training" my kids nowadays. Back when mine were young a quick slap on the bum seemed to work fine !

Neither of my kids got into trouble with the police , my wife and I had very few problems. I did tend to teach dogs and kids in much the same way. By playing a lot but if and when I said " No" then I meant it. A few years ago my wife and I moved about 15 miles from our old home - within two years both of our kids moved out to live very near to us - one of them is within 100 yards . They brought with them their families and my wife and I regularly get the grandkids dumped on us. If our kids thought of us as in any way abusive would they have done that ?

I like to train dogs positively whenever I can but , for me, it hasn't been possible to do so at all times. I correct physically when needed. So far I have been able to win spaniel, retriever and Hunt -point- retriever tests and trials by behaving with dogs in what seems to be a way that works for me and for them.

I began to learn how to clicker train gundogs just a couple of years ago and I have added this to my trainers "toolbox" but if I had to I would also use the e- collar because that is also just another tool in the box for me have available. The use of e- collars is all about getting an education in their proper use I.M.O. - I originally joined this forum to educate myself how to use them. The people who advocate " lighting the dog up" on this forum I ignore , the people who apply only enough "shock" to suit the dog and the situation I listen to carefully.

Don't lock yourself out of your own toolbox by insisting on "all positive training."

I'm looking forward to hearing how you get on with your clumber , keep a sense of proportion as you train her and you and she will do fine.
If you are interested in clicker training (positive only) a gundog then I know there is a book available written by an English lady on the subject. I read it a couple of years ago and began to learn how to clicker train at about the same time as I joined this forum and began to learn how to e- collar train.Both are just tools in the box.

Bill T.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:21 am

Neil wrote:Ezzy,

I am sure you have heard it before, but dogs are not little people in fur coats. Child rearing and dog training have nothing in common.

Let's help the guy train his dog,

Neil

NOTHING?!?!?

Sorry, but I disagree. The most basic fundamental training axiom of all applies to both. "What you allow them to do, you are training them to do". If they (kids or dogs) do something in your presence and you do not stop them they infer that you actually want them to do it. That is why training can never be limited to ten or fifteen minutes a day, it is a lifestyle.

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:26 am

Neil wrote:
snips wrote:I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....
You would be hard pressed to find an active psychologist, either animal or child, to agree with that statement.

There are studies of children raised in the wild, and the lower primates raised as children that substantiates my position.

Folks, I don't just make this stuff up, I could be more mannerly in presenting it, but it does not change the science behind my pronouncements.

Dogs are not little kids, and should not be trained the same way.

Neil

OK.... all of this is off topic anyway but..... 1) you are back-peddling here and trying to defend your own misquote of yourself (not cricket). You didn't originally say they shouldn't be trained the same way you said "Child rearing and dog training have nothing in common". And those self same psychologists you refer to would absolutely disagree with that statement. 2)As to children being raised in the wild, Seriously??? What, was there ONE. perhaps TWO? Hardly a scientifically and statistically significant sample, AND, since the one child of such circumstances that I can recall off the top of my head behaved just like a wild animal this would be an argument for our position not yours. Clearly methods used by wolves to rear pups can be used with equal effectiveness on humans with the same result.

jus sayin

can we get back to dogs........?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:28 am

crackerd wrote:
GH, were they

"velvet" gloves?

No velvet on those babies MG!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:35 pm

I agree we need to get back to training dogs.

And I will stand correct, in that both dogs and children breathe air, have a pulse, eat, poop, etc, they have some things in common. So I am sorry I exaggerated.

Oh, there have been a few dozen children raised in the wild, don't you remember Tarzan ?

Back to dogs,

Neil

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:07 pm

Neil wrote:
snips wrote:I think there is a HUGE correlation between raising kids and dogs....
You would be hard pressed to find an active psychologist, either animal or child, to agree with that statement.

There are studies of children raised in the wild, and the lower primates raised as children that substantiates my position.

Folks, I don't just make this stuff up, I could be more mannerly in presenting it, but it does not change the science behind my pronouncements.

Dogs are not little kids, and should not be trained the same way.

Neil

I agree Neil.
As a teacher of 44 years and a dog trainer of 50 years , I can say that there are some similarities in training/upbringing , but not many. A dog is a pack animal /prey driven and this influences most of its' thinking. Both need to know boundaries, that there will be consequences for " misbehavior" , and both need consistent follow-up on infractions. Both respond to praise. In my mind, that is where the similarity ends. A child' s facility with language makes all the difference in interactions.
One of the biggest error dog trainers make is thinking they see human behavioral reactions in dogs. " He's jealous." No. The dog is working out his pack position.
" He's purposely annoying me." No. Dogs don't have that depth of thought. " If he really respected me , he wouldn't poop in the house." Not. " After all I do for him, he runs away." :roll:

I'm enjoying this interesting discussion.

"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful." -Ann Landers ( general comment only)

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:13 pm

"Don't accept your dogs admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful".....

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:29 pm

I think some of the contention here is precipitated by the fact that we each have a slightly different lexicon. I don't use the word correction the way some do. I have never used an e-collar on a dog and while I have picked a dog or two off the ground like a bag of dirt and shook him a bit a few times over the many years I have been training hunting and field trial springers it has been rare. When I "correct" a dog it is not punishment... it is guidance. Slowing or stopping a dog with a check cord or positioning yourself so you can step in front of a dog who is likely to break is not the same as lighting him up like a christmas tree.

Plus which... even among well bred dogs there are recalcitrant individuals who resist our efforts. Some dogs do require "some" "correction". There is an ocean of difference between a trainable dog and a biddable dog. I can train a Rhinoceros to find birds... training is only one piece of a very large puzzle. A biddable dog actually "wants" to cooperate with you. It goes beyond wanting to please. I have owned one dog whose biddability was orders of magnitude beyond the rest and those of you who have had the pleasure know what I am talking about.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:50 pm

I don't understand why people who do not believe in using an e-collar, think that those of us who do, are lighting our dogs up like a christmas tree. It just ain't so!!!! There will always be people who abuse it, but those same people would use extreme measures whether it be with a training tool or their hands and feet.

Charlie

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:41 pm

birddogger wrote:I don't understand why people who do not believe in using an e-collar, think that those of us who do, are lighting our dogs up like a christmas tree. It just ain't so!!!! There will always be people who abuse it, but those same people would use extreme measures whether it be with a training tool or their hands and feet.

Charlie

I didn't say I don't believe in it... just that I never used one. To be honest, I am looking into that very thing right now after discussion and demonstration by the pro trainer out at DeCoverly Kennels. I realize that it isn't necessary to Light a dog up to train with an e-collar... sorry if it came across as an indictment, I didn't intend it that way. I was just exercising my hyperbole and chose unfortunate words. You, of course, are right.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:49 pm

Hey Thunder, no problem here. I know of people who did light their dogs up, again and again, and ruined them. But, if used properly, it is a very valuable tool. Ofcourse not a necessary tool, but a great aid to those who wish to use it.

Charlie

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:29 am

Charlie,
Twentyish years ago when I was first introduced to training collars the people I saw using them were pretty heavy handed and, I suspect, the collars themselves were not particularly kind. The collar that I was shown out at DeCoverly was so mild even at mid-range settings that I was skeptical that it would even work. I held it in the palm of my hand and felt nothing at all up to the 3 setting. I had to press the contacts against the back of my hand to feel it and I would not even describe the sensation as a shock. My resistance to training with an e-collar in the past was linked to the aversion I felt when watching the way they were used by some fairly brutish trainers and the fact that my training buddies and I had other methods that worked quite well without the collar.

Lately, the busy nature of my schedule makes it difficult to stick to a set routine. I can find adequate time to train but it isn't always when others can train with me so I find myself training alone most of the time. I am looking into a collar to extend my realm of authority so to speak. If I can turn her head from a distance it is like a second set of hands. I would appreciate any information that GDF members can post. Is there (I am assuming there is but I haven't looked yet) a thread on E-Collars?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:49 pm

Yep, the e-collars have sure changed over time. I think the early ones were mostly for trash breaking, which takes an extreme correction but you normally only have to do it once. There are alot of misconceptions about the e-collar, but watching someone using one correctly can change minds.

There are threads on here concerning e-collars if you do a search.

Charlie

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:07 pm

Thanks Charlie,

My name is Mark, by the way. Thunder was the finest dog I ever owned and I tend to use his name on forums a lot. His full name was Ruchar's Rolling Thunder. He was a freight train... watching him work could bring a tear to your eye. I was offered an obscene sum of money for him after his first series at a field trail one Fall weekend. He passed away june 16, 2008 at 14 years old. A part of me died with him.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:42 pm

From now on, you are Mark

Thanks for sharing Thunder with us. A dog like that can never really be replaced.

Regards,
Charlie

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:06 pm

birddogger wrote:Yep, the e-collars have sure changed over time. I think the early ones were mostly for trash breaking,
Charlie

In the first years of the ecollar, and for many, many years thereafter, there were NO variable intensity collars. Dogs were trained in EVERY phase of their training by using the old A-70 collar. It was a brutal affair even when used by the greatest of trainers. No one should ever think the old trainers enjoyed cooking a dog with them; it was all they had. BUT because of that, every ecollar program in existance today was developed. We owe all of them a huge debt, obviously and most notably, the great Rex Carr.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:36 pm

Educational post GH. Thanks.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:46 am

birddogger wrote:I don't understand why people who do not believe in using an e-collar, think that those of us who do, are lighting our dogs up like a christmas tree. It just ain't so!!!! There will always be people who abuse it, but those same people would use extreme measures whether it be with a training tool or their hands and feet.

Charlie

The difference I have seen is the passive nature of an e-collar, it takes a sadistic SOB to chase a dog down and stomp it, but even my sweet little grandmother could push a button and fry a dog (actually she thought it was the remote to the TV, not that I was using it as a bark collar, but that is another story).

Most I have observed are not tuned into their dogs all that well, they stimulate the dog, nothing happens that they can see, so they go up the scale until the dog vocalizes. It is just too easy to push the button, and that, their ignorance, not their cruelty leads to the abuse. Too often too many use it to train, not reinforce a known command. It is all too often used as a short cut.

And even in the hands of experts, sometimes the dog gets confused, because they are using it like a joy stick, one time to whoa, the next to turn, then to come, or even go out.

And I have never had a dog respond to the lower level of stimulus unless they had first experienced the higher levels.

I am not saying this applies to you or even 90% of those visiting here, just saying it does happen.

Go back in the archives and read some of the uninformed questions we get here, and then think that most of those asking them bought an e-collar the day after they got the dog.

I have never said I can train a dog "all positive", but it is a goal, and I am getting closer.

Neil

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:45 pm

All kinds of terrible things are done with guns, but I certainly don't condemn the guns.

Neil, you said you have never seen a dog respond to a low stim, without experiencing a high stim first. Then you haven't seen a dog conditioned to the collar properly.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:50 pm

birddogger wrote:All kinds of terrible things are done with guns, but I certainly don't condemn the guns.

Neil, you said you have never seen a dog respond to a low stim, without experiencing a high stim first. Then you haven't seen a dog conditioned to the collar properly.

Charlie

To the first, I don't condemn e-collars either, just those that use them improperly.

As to the 2nd, perhaps.

Neil

Thunder · Post by **Thunder** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:14 pm

I would love to attend a workshop on conditioning and basics or use. I really do not know enough to even start.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:26 pm

Mark, I am sure there are some good dvd's that could help. There are people here that can give a better explanation of how to condition and use an e-collar, but I will try to give some brief advise. The e-collar is used in the same way you would use a leash or cc. When you are teaching a command, such as come/here, you give a tug on the cc or reel the pup in, as you give the command, and as always give lots of praise. Once the pup is conditioned to the tug on the cc, you can begin overlaying it with the e-collar. Let me back up, have the dog wear the e-collar for about a month with it turned off, so he gets accustomed to wearing it. Then, when you give a jerk on the cc, you give a mild stimulation at the same time. Eventually, you can do away with the cc, and have your dog respond with only the e-collar. When he is consistent, stop giving the stim, unless he/she doesn't respond to your command.

To know where to start with the e-collar, set it on the lowest level. Watch your dog closely, you can turn it up one click at a time until you notice a reaction. By reaction, I mean a twitch of an ear, a turn of the head, or any other mild reaction. You should not be looking to cause the dog pain and/or make it yelp. I hope this gives you a general idea.

Charlie

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:12 am

Charlie,

That is a very good and concise explanation, well done!

I have often been asked if the collar must be turned on during the "getting used to it" phase. Used to say no, we would just tape a battery to on old collar, then decided we needed the prongs,so just used an old broken collar, now I think some of them can tell if it is on or not. Or it may be that they just need a light nick from time to time to remind them. So my answer now is, I don't know.

And not to pick on jkoehler, but please read his thread on "When to Shoot", if he reads your excellent explanation, do you think he can now properly use an e-collar, or would some hands on in person instruction be a a good thing? Or what about the guy that just got a Weim and wants us to write him a book on pointing dog training? I would guess he does know how to use an e-collar on a retriever, but we know it is not the same as a pointing dog. Or the guy that asked the question for your response?

I am not trying to shame those that ask basic questions, even on the internet it is one way to learn, but the proper e-collar use is complex, and I don't think can be learned by reading a paragraph, no matter how well written. Yet I know some are using them without even that much instruction, I see them at our training grounds every weekend.

Neil