derby training

[nowicki2005]

I'm working on getting my dog ready for a derby at the end of the month. I have a problem though. My dog will hold point to flush but one the bird flushes, if I don't have a checkcord on him (which i cant in the derby), he will just run after the bird and being quail, will see it land and try to go get it. Thoughts? Training help? Also of note, once he sees a bird flushed, I lose all control over him and he will no longer come when called etc...

[original mngsp]

Welcome to having a Derby dog. In most AKC trials this normal behavior for a Derby. Nothing wrong with it unless you cant get the dog off the bird and back onto course.

[nowicki2005]

Welcome to having a Derby dog. In most AKC trials this normal behavior for a Derby. Nothing wrong with it unless you cant get the dog off the bird and back onto course.

That's the thing, I can't get my dog off a bird when he's not on a checkord

[kninebirddog]

Do you and your dog a favor and forget the derby run , as every time you put that young dog in the field and that dog gets to chase after birds ..it is learning what it can get away with in the field
sure you can get a ribbon with derby runs like that but that ribbon by the way you are explaining how your young dog is will come with a high price. Train for the adult stakes and forget the derby stake...

Those 2 points you may get are not worth the bad field habits you will be letting your dog learn

[Neil]

Go ahead and run him if it is AKC, he will either catch the bird or give up and come with you. The judges will understand. I am not a big fan of a dog, no matter the age, ignoring me, don't know how much time you have, but "here" means "here", I will let a Derby have a few steps while the command gets through all the emotion of the chase, but they should have already been taught to listen.

I have never had a problem steadying a dog after it has caught a few birds, it can actually be a good thing for some. And those two points can be very important, I have known a good many pretty fair dogs to go to their grave with 9 points.

But more importantly, the experience is vital, lots to learn at a field trial for you both, the Puppy/Derby is a good place to get it.

Neil

[ezzy333]

Go ahead and run him if it is AKC, he will either catch the bird or give up and come with you. The judges will understand. I am not a big fan of a dog, no matter the age, ignoring me, don't know how much time you have, but "here" means "here", I will let a Derby have a few steps while the command gets through all the emotion of the chase, but they should have already been taught to listen.

I have never had a problem steadying a dog after it has caught a few birds, it can actually be a good thing for some. And those two points can be very important, I have known a good many pretty fair dogs to go to their grave with 9 points.

But more importantly, the experience is vital, lots to learn at a field trial for you both, the Puppy/Derby is a good place to get it.

Neil

I think this is right on. Too many other things to worry about than the possibility of catching a bird. Don't know if I have ever seen a good dog that hasn't caught a few over the years.

Ezzy

[Keny Glasscock]

My feeling is ,especially with a hard driving, prey driven Britt is to forgo the derby stakes unless you KNOW your dog isn't going to chase to the end of the earth.
No it isn't going to hurt your score, yes you can correct it later but why allow something in a trail that you do not, should not allow in training. Sure I let a very young dog chase early on, there's no harm in that, in training. I'm building prey drive and getting the pup excited about his birds. However once I put down my money and the pups future on a trial I better know something about the pup and know how it's going to perform. Otherwise it's a long walk or horse ride. 1 or 2 points for a puppy or Derby stake isn't really worth it to me if I've got to spend an extra 2-3 month getting the young hellion back in line. Some you never do get right. Maybe Niel can get every dog right he touches but I've seen dogs that after a bird scoopin', derby winning season, never get it right. I own a Britt just like that. Yeah you can beat them into submission and they perform flawlessly 90% of the time. But that other 10% they give you the finger and you hear the dreaded words, sorry son I can't use him, have a nice walk back to the truck.

Puppy and derby stakes IMO, and I don't try to force my opinion on anyone, keep events alive. A lot of clubs could not hold trials if not for the money generated by puppy and derby stakes. So they have their place and reason to exist. I won a puppy stake this past weekend. However if you're in this game to play for a period of time and not just dabbling you can win a 2-3 point broke dog stake with style and not have to deal with all of the ramifications of a botched derby run.

[kninebirddog]

I do have to add.


I get those derby sensations have had 4 of them in the last couple years that didn't break out for adult stakes and I got to make hunting dogs out of them that was just the ones I got ...that doesn't include the others that I know of
I know there are many that go on to adult stakes just fine but many of those dogs are in the hands of Experienced people and know what to look for

Good Luck with what ever you decide

[Sharon]

I'm working on getting my dog ready for a derby at the end of the month. I have a problem though. My dog will hold point to flush but one the bird flushes, if I don't have a checkcord on him (which i cant in the derby), he will just run after the bird and being quail, will see it land and try to go get it. Thoughts? Training help? Also of note, once he sees a bird flushed, I lose all control over him and he will no longer come when called etc...

You didn't say what kind of trial umbrella.

I know little about the AKC trials. I do know that in American Field Derby stakes at trials, if your derby isn't pretty reliably broke to at least the flush , the dog will not place.I've participated in many an AF derby stake but as the dogs were always broke to flush, I never had to worry about a hard flying bird being caught. In Ontario we can count on hard flying birds.

[kninebirddog]

Sharon AKC derby stakes all the young dog has to do is establish point and then after that they don't care...They just want to see run
I have watched some pure disasters where a dog got a placement pointed one bird ripped it out chased it all over then proceeded to rip out the rest of the birds it found...The stupid ribbon the owner was so excited about ran some more...well That dog is one of many I refer to since he is going on 4 and the owner has never been able to get him reliable on birds...That dog learned trials are rip and run fun

IF you have a young dog that is holding birds and can be called off chase Great go run a brace or two

But if you have a dog that is hyper drive on birds...You are only setting your trial career up for frustration and heartache. I have seen that look on a few people starting out when they come to the realization that their dog was never going to get around the field clean as an adult and those those juvenile ribbons they have cost far more then they were worth

[Neil]

There is no way to prove this either way, but I strongly believe that those dogs that are unbreakable would have been that way if ran in Derby or not. And those that were easily trained to steady would have been that way also.

Catching a bird or 2 or 26 is just not that big of a deal.

There are so many other things to be concerned about in getting a winning trial dog.

Neil

[Keny Glasscock]

I'm working on getting my dog ready for a derby at the end of the month. I have a problem though. My dog will hold point to flush but one the bird flushes, if I don't have a checkcord on him (which i cant in the derby), he will just run after the bird and being quail, will see it land and try to go get it. Thoughts? Training help? Also of note, once he sees a bird flushed, I lose all control over him and he will no longer come when called etc...

You didn't say what kind of trial umbrella.

I know little about the AKC trials. I do know that in American Field Derby stakes at trials, if your derby isn't pretty reliably broke to at least the flush , the dog will not place.I've participated in many an AF derby stake but as the dogs were always broke to flush, I never had to worry about a hard flying bird being caught. In Ontario we can count on hard flying birds.

Then don't come down here cause we got some crappy flyin' birds . If every bird got out of town well there would be nothing to fret over. They don't pure and simply. I agree Neil some just wanna be a pill and some just never get it. Renegade's. I'm more concerned about. 60 percent in the middle that can be swayed either way with some thought or lack of thought. JMO.

[ezzy333]

How many dogs do you knbow that no matter how hard you tried to keep them from catching a bird have not caught one. I agree it may not be desireable for some dogs but it happens and to the best of my knowledge has never been the cause of a dog not being trustworthy. Thats like saying you can;t house break a pup that has ever wet on the floor. Just isn't the case.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

Sharon AKC derby stakes all the young dog has to do is establish point and then after that they don't care...They just want to see run
I have watched some pure disasters where a dog got a placement pointed one bird ripped it out chased it all over then proceeded to rip out the rest of the birds it found...The stupid ribbon the owner was so excited about ran some more...well That dog is one of many I refer to since he is going on 4 and the owner has never been able to get him reliable on birds...That dog learned trials are rip and run fun

IF you have a young dog that is holding birds and can be called off chase Great go run a brace or two

But if you have a dog that is hyper drive on birds...You are only setting your trial career up for frustration and heartache. I have seen that look on a few people starting out when they come to the realization that their dog was never going to get around the field clean as an adult and those those juvenile ribbons they have cost far more then they were worth

I think that is very good advice.

PS imo there is no excuse for poor flying birds in a trial, unless it is pouring rain. Find a new supplier of flight conditioned birds.

[kninebirddog]

sad part is that is pen raised birds for you sometimes they fly good and sometimes they don't.

[Gordon Guy]

I ran both of my young dogs in Derby's last weekend. Chukar were used and when flushed all of them either went out of the country or flew into a tree. One dog is steady to flush but after the shot he's off to the races. And the other hasn't yet been taught much, but neither one caught a bird. I was glad. Good birds help.

[Keny Glasscock]

How many dogs do you knbow that no matter how hard you tried to keep them from catching a bird have not caught one. I agree it may not be desireable for some dogs but it happens and to the best of my knowledge has never been the cause of a dog not being trustworthy. Thats like saying you can;t house break a pup that has ever wet on the floor. Just isn't the case.

Ezzy

One bird isn't the issue. Multiple birds becomes a learned behavior and it's difficult IN SOME DOGS to break. I just hate to see people tell new guys hey let them catch all they want it's no big deal. It's a poor training practice that comes from, in my opinion a lack of concentration. I would rather not have to fix it. I try to never talk in absolutes a) it makes me look like a pompous A-hole and B) it'll bite me in the ar,se somewhere down the line for saying "this is the way it is". Dogs have a way of doing that to us. Again JMO and I could be wrong. None of us are omnipotent.

[Maurice]

I agree with Keny and Knine, especially with a high drive dog.

Mo

[nowicki2005]

Here is the stud on point last fall.

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http://www.facebook.com/v/530843458954

edited to add link to video