Gun Dog Forum

Is it allowed to used a 209 as opposed to a .22? I'm asking because I am looking to buy one and dont want to buy something I can't use in trials.

Maybe I'm losing my mind as i have only participated in CKC and American Field trials but guns are only used by official gunners in AKC Field Trials I believe.

Enlarge the print at the top. Scroll down on the blue page. See page 46.

http://clubs.akc.org/brit/News/06.AKCFi ... lRules.pdf

I assume that you are talking about blanks for course work.
I have used .22 and .32 blanks and don't see any problem with a .209 being used on the course.
Most clubs don't care which you use.

yes sorry I did mean blanks. Is it true that a .32 is required for championships?

Not in AKC.

Greg Jennings wrote:Not in AKC.

so if I buy a 209 blank pistol then I will be okay for any akc event correct?

Should be. I know that many of the trials I have talked to are moving the the .209 due to cost for the .32

nowicki2005 wrote:yes sorry I did mean blanks. Is it true that a .32 is required for championships?

Generally speaking, .32's are required in Championships. It will always state it in the Premiums.

American Field has changed that requirement. .32s no longer needed for Championships.

It is up to the club holding an open championship, AFTCA has approved primers for all the amateur championships, and most of the open clubs now allow them. AKC does allow them.

I think you will be fine with a primer, but not a .22.

Neil

Guys -

I just read the AKC rules on line and they still read that 22 crimps are not allowed. Is there an addendum to that rule?

I know most AKC clubs don't care much at weekend trials but I would hate to have my dog lose a qualifier for using the wrong gun if someone raised an objection, especially since I do have a 32 blank gun.

I haven't found a 209 primer pistol that I want to spend the money on. Maybe that new SS blank pistol, but for ths side of $200, I gotta see one first.

TIA

RayG

Ray,

I've judged a number of HT's and FT's...and once and a while you'll run across somebody with a .22 acorn crimp. When I judge I normally carry a blank gun in my saddle bag. So I'll offer it to the handler. They usually don't know that a crimp isn't allowed, so I see it as a teachable moment. Happens more often in HT's.

There is one fella locally that year after year pops crimps at a FT...he knows, he just don't care. May have to make him start though.

As far as the cost of the .32's....really, if it comes down to that being the make or break for entering a dog...a person should probably stay home.....you don't have the money to play with.

Wyndancer -

The only thinb that bothers me is that in reality, all of the 22 loads except the black powder ones are crimped ends. I typically use CCI crimps which are louder than some 32's and right there with 209's or a #2 ramset which is a little less loud, but I don't want the hassle, so in a Ch, I use a 32. Even if I run three dogs and have three finds each, I am going to be a long time(5-6 trials) before I need another box of 32 blanks. I don't run in that many in a year's time...one or two dogs in 2 or three championships is much mor typical.

RayG

By crimps, they mean the little acorn crimps. They're not loud enough.

Wyndancer wrote:

I've judged a number of HT's and FT's...and once and a while you'll run across somebody with a .22 acorn crimp. When I judge I normally carry a blank gun in my saddle bag. So I'll offer it to the handler. They usually don't know that a crimp isn't allowed, so I see it as a teachable moment. Happens more often in HT's.

Dan,

A rather nice gesture at a FT, but why at a HT, where crimps are not banned?

Just curious,
Dave

This is only a bit off topic, but why are were worried about loud. We have enough hunting dogs going prematurely deaf, so we think we need to harm the hearing of the trial dogs too?

I have always been told it is to be sure they are not gun shy, with that logic we should move up to a cannon instead of just a .32.

Another tradition I just don't get.

209 primers are fine. .32's are fine. Basically any .22 load other than the tiny little acorns are fine. I personally use brown nailgun loads from Home Depot.

FWIW, I like to train with a mixture of different .22 loads and just before a trial I like to fire the loudest ones I have.

I have seen several times a brace of dogs have their own finds, work em clean, then have a divided find where one handler is firing a louder blank and the brace mate breaks on shot. Now granted there might have been another reason the dog broke but the reaction I seen when the shot was fired leads me to believe it was the louder blank. My dog will at times do it on a retrieve bird if the gunner is firing a 12 gauge. He just gets so used to me shooting a 20 that the sudden loudness will rattle him a bit. Not much you can do about it except train for it all. Even need to train for the quietest bang of them all..............the verbal one.................smart guy here Casper forgot his gun one time and the judge told him to just say bang and we'll move on.

Note: If you say BANG and the dog leaves your still done

I put mine together backwards once. Can't be done? That's what the judge said. He took the gun and looked at it and said, " Well I'll be "bleep" ; it can be done.
Through all of this the dog is still standing. The judge gave me his gun and off we went. I'm sure he wanted to say, ' Only a woman !" , but he restrained himself.

Well Dave...ya got me there. I should read the HT guidelines closer...and I just re-took the HT test.

Maybe the HT Advisory committee will touch on that?

Anyway, I still carry a blank gun, as a judge, at a HT for a few reasons.

A) Handler forgot...happens
B) Somebody will whip out a non-approved blank gun.

I always ask the handlers to "show me". They go, "yep got it."....Ah, no, I want to see it.

One time a fella whips out a muzzle loader pistol...percussion cap ignition. I let him use mine. Oh, he wanted to argue it was "safe."

ROFLMBO...... Did you pass him?? Rule 1 : Never tick the judge off before you start.

I believe so. Have ta judge the dogs, not the people.

Guys -

FWIW -

I have gotten several versions of what is permitted, so to avoid confusion and get the "official" answer, I posed the question to the AKC directly.

I received this response from Ms. Bonnie Hidalgo:

........................................................................................................
"You are correct in assuming that it means the acorn crimps are not permitted. The other 22 shells are legal, and yes they too are crimped. Sorry for the confusion! Hopefully we can clear this up in a futre reprint of the rulebook.
Thanks for your question!"

Bonnie Hidalgo
Executive Field Representative
..................................................................................................
So. yes it is the low power acorn crimp, and ONLY the low powered acorn crimp that is not allowed in AKC trials. All other 22 blank ammo is permited, even though it may in fact be closed with a crimp. So... CCI crimps and Ramset loads and black powder 22's are legit. Wyndancer had it right.

I have to give the AKC performance dog staff high marks for their follow through and quick response time.

Just thought I should pass it on.

RayG

Bonnie makes the AKC look good.....Maneely does as well

I use Ramset yellow crimps - cracks like a 38 in my LCS blank gun. Never been told it wasn't loud enough, I use it mostly for training and when in championships it is my back up in case I run out of ammo or my 32 fails to function.

That is why I like spaniel trials..... they shoot actual shotgun rounds and kill actual birds. Who'd a thunk it.

Thunder wrote:That is why I like spaniel trials..... they shoot actual shotgun rounds and kill actual birds. Who'd a thunk it.

NSTRA?

Thunder wrote:That is why I like spaniel trials..... they shoot actual shotgun rounds and kill actual birds. Who'd a thunk it.

Oh my gosh. How positively Neanderthal! Actually killing birds...FOR SPORT!

Next you will be telling me you also enjoy siccing your bloodthirsty mongrel on those poor defenseless creatures!

Note: Above remarks were made with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Actually that sounds interesting. I have never been to a spaniel trial. Now you have given me a very good reason to go see one. Thanks.

RayG

RayGubernat wrote:

Thunder wrote:That is why I like spaniel trials..... they shoot actual shotgun rounds and kill actual birds. Who'd a thunk it.

Oh my gosh. How positively Neanderthal! Actually killing birds...FOR SPORT!

Next you will be telling me you also enjoy siccing your bloodthirsty mongrel on those poor defenseless creatures!

Note: Above remarks were made with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Actually that sounds interesting. I have never been to a spaniel trial. Now you have given me a very good reason to go see one. Thanks.

RayG

It is interesting and quite different! I went to watch the Boykin Spaniel Championship last year here in S. Carolina. It's much slower paced than the pointing dog trials and hunt tests. They mark off areas like lanes where the birds are planted. It's about the width of a road. The dog patterns in the "lane" flushes the bird and "hups"There are official gunners and the judges walk right behind the handler. There was quite a large gallery walking behind and the dogs that are waiting on deck are also walking in the gallery with their handlers. They only use a certain length also. When the dog comes to the end of the "lane" they are done and the next dog comes out for the next portion of the "lane". When they reach the end of that course they turn around and go back down the lane.

Very leisurely pace! I'm so used to the fast pace of the horseback trials!

RayGubernat wrote:Now you have given me a very good reason to go see one. Thanks.

RayG

You will thoroughly enjoy it. High energy, high enthusiasm dogs in crisp control.

CherrystoneWeims wrote:
It is interesting and quite different! I went to watch the Boykin Spaniel Championship last year here in S. Carolina. It's much slower paced than the pointing dog trials and hunt tests. They mark off areas like lanes where the birds are planted. It's about the width of a road. The dog patterns in the "lane" flushes the bird and "hups"There are official gunners and the judges walk right behind the handler. There was quite a large gallery walking behind and the dogs that are waiting on deck are also walking in the gallery with their handlers. They only use a certain length also. When the dog comes to the end of the "lane" they are done and the next dog comes out for the next portion of the "lane". When they reach the end of that course they turn around and go back down the lane.

Very leisurely pace! I'm so used to the fast pace of the horseback trials!

Leisurely??? That's an understatement. I went to a trial in NT State when I was over there at Shady Hills kennels. I was bored to death. But I did decide that when I get too old for AF trials, I might try that.

I will say though that you had better be quick on the draw when it comes to shooting. You don't get much notice.

slistoe wrote:

Thunder wrote:That is why I like spaniel trials..... they shoot actual shotgun rounds and kill actual birds. Who'd a thunk it.

NSTRA?

English Springer Spaniel Field Trial Association ESSFTA. It can be leisurely compared to horseback trials but it is a pretty fair approximation of how many people actually hunt. During all but the final series there are always two dogs on the course, one to either side of the center line (which they must respect) They must also be steady to a shot fired from either side of the course and must honor (hold) for a dog retrieving across their side of the course. The fact that you have three very experienced gunners following two handlers, two dogs and two judges makes for some great retrieves and some very impressive dog work. I always liked the trials but was frequently disappointed by the politics and nepotism.