Looking for advice

[carlson.douglas.w]

I am new to hunting. I have a 15 month old yellow lab. Yesterday was his first pheasant hunt. There were 5 hunters and 3 other dogs. My dog, Lou, stayed behind my heels for the first hour or so of the hunt. Eventually he did get out in front and join the other dogs, and at the very end of the hunt he did successfully find and flush one rooster.

I realize after watching the other dogs that I have a long way to go if my dog is ever going to hunt successfully. He doesn't realize his role in the field - he wants to be near me all the time. Also, with the bird he did flush, he didn't put it together that he was supposed to retrieve it after I shot it. I was thinking about a shock collar but those are more to keep your dog close, right? MY problem is that my dog stays too close and does not go out and look for birds.

A few notes on the dog:
--He has basic obedience commands pretty much mastered <come, stay, sit, kennel, etc.>
--He is not gun shy.
--He is obsessed with fetching tennis balls. I have recently read that this was a mistake, I have used a chuck-it to throw balls for him to retrieve thousands of times. He will, however, sit when I throw the ball and will not retrieve it until I give him the command to fetch it up.
--He is great at working the field to find a tennis ball.
--He is very intelligent and learns things quickly.

I'm looking for some practical advice on how to effectively train him to hunt upland game.
I hope all the fetch I have played with him has not ruined him for hunting. He doesn't seem to understand retrieving unless I throw the object to be retrieved. I did throw some dead birds for him to retrieve and he was loving that.

Any advice would be really appreciated. Basically, I need to start from square one.

Thanks in advance.

Doug

[ezzy333]

Doubt if you have a problem. Sounds more like lack of experience. What did you do well the first time you ever tried it? Take your dog by himself and let him find some birds and give him a chance to retrieve. Bet after a few trips you will find he is a lot better than you think. You just didn't give him a chance in so many ways, first time hunting, 6 people shooting, other dogs he didn't know, shots from all direstions for no reason as far as he knew, and probably you urging him to get away from you and you were the only thing in the field he knew and thought he understood.

Just didn't give him a chance to succeed I don't think.


Ezzy

[Ruffshooter]

Got to Ditto Ezzy:

He needs to learn for him self. He needs to be able to focus on the task at hand. There was a lot going on that day. Too much to absorb for him.

Take him to the fields and woods let him have his head. Let him run and explore. You be quiet. Have you taught him whistle commands? Or any directional commands for when you are afield? (Nice book Robert Milsners Back to Basics Retriever Training. Simple clean easy.)

Take him to a hunt preserve, let him find the birds himself. Let him sniff them out. Let him chase them. Shoot the bird for him. Don;t do any talking or encouraging him. Let him focus. You can praise the heck out of him when he brings back the shot bird to your side or front. Dont' praise him after he drops it. A dog needs to learn how hunt on there own before they are conifdent and menatally strong enough to handle all of what you through at him for his first hunt.

If he liked the dead birds and normally goes out in front for walks You will be okay. Remember he is a flusher and need only be 30 yards or so in front or to the sides. He may not find every bird. Pay attention to the wind, his head, his body language, he will tell you what is going on. You will learn when he is working a bird, strong scent, or old scent. He will learn to leave old scent.
Let him teach you. They generally teach us more than we teach them. He taught you that day that you were pushing it and he was confused as to what to do.
Good luck.
Rick

[jimbo&rooster]

an electric collar is not the answer to your current problem. the e collar is used to enforce known commands as an extension of you. if the dog had no idea what was expected of it why complicate things by burning him for no real reason? you have gotten good advice in the above couple of posts.
jim

[carlson.douglas.w]

Thanks everyone - I appreciate your help.
Rick - sounds like great advice. I will do that.

[Rossignol]

I'm just getting started myself, so anyone feel free to correct me. But in my mind, in terms of conditioning for a response; the dog will fetch, or retreive. You could train with a starting pistol maybe to associate that with the retreive. So when you throw out the bird, fire the pistol to simulate shooting the bird. So in the long run, the end result, the gun fire may invoke the desired response of retreiving the felled bird.

I know this is sort of simplified, but for the training I do, it begins with a plan and a foundation and then evolves as its carried out. Training or modifying behavior is based on associating good things with the desired behavior.

brad.

[AzDoggin]

Agree completely with advice others have given. The only thing I might add to your training away from the field might be to consider reducing the tennis ball reps just slightly - he's got that one DOWN it sounds like - and introduce some nose work to get him used to searching and following scent. I think that sometimes because we humans are so visual, we assume the dogs are too, and we tend to over-emphasize the stuff we can see.

Have him sit/stay and start dragging chunks of hotdog or food treats for tracks in the yard - gradually increasing complexity - and leave the tidbit at the end. Make it FUN - and it is alot of fun for both of you. After a few reps of this, you will be AMAZED at how your dog can follow scent trails. You are also developing his nose abilities at the same time which will help tracking the wily phez. Use a consistent command (some use "hunt dead" or "hunt 'em up") when he is tracking using his nose. That way you can send him after cripples really easily.

There are many ways that the Navdha guys develop their dogs tracking skills. Sometimes, they'll bind a pheasants wings and send them off. Dog has to track them to get them. You can also drag frozen birds to simulate a runner, and leave the bird at the end.

I'm sure your dog will be fine. Just the fact that his owner seeks more information is an awfully good sign!

I don't like to hunt green dogs around a bunch of other hunters and dogs. I want them working well for me alone first, then you can gradually increase distractions.


This is wisdom right here from Rick:

Let him teach you. They generally teach us more than we teach them. He taught you that day that you were pushing it and he was confused as to what to do.

Take care.

[surferdave]

Training to retrieve tennis balls is not training to retrieve birds. You have to link that retrieving ability he has with balls to the birds you shoot. This involves using dummies not balls, dummies with wings attached, and of course, dead birds or live birds. Again with what others have said, running him his first time with experienced dogs is not only distracting but confusing to a first timer. Baby steps, but sounds like your guy did just fine. Control the environment and experience better and he'll shine.

[fishvik]

I think the key here is birds. Live ones and dead ones. Get some dead pigeons and have him fetch them instead of tennis balls. Shoot a blank and throw the pigeon. After that plant some dead birds and have him find them. Then plant some live ones and then let him find them and shoot them for him and have him retrieve. This probably all he needs, he just needs to know what you want.

[carlson.douglas.w]

Just want to say thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply. I really appreciate the advice, and there has been a lot of it. I should also clarify that I didnt expect him to come out of the gates as an ace hunter. I know it takes training and effort from both of us to attain that skill - I was just a bit worried that he was behind me in the beginning of the hunt, and also that I had damaged his capacity to hunt with too many reps w the tennis ball. I love my dog more than I can put into words and I enjoy working w him. Just didn't know how/where to start. Thanks to you guys/gals, I have a good idea of some training exercises to get him on the right path - so thank you very much. And, to anyone reading this string, please keep the thoughts and advice coming in. It's very valuable and helpful to me.

Thanks all - and good hunting.


Doug

[kninebirddog]

an electric collar is not the answer to your current problem. the e collar is used to enforce known commands as an extension of you. if the dog had no idea what was expected of it why complicate things by burning him for no real reason? you have gotten good advice in the above couple of posts.
jim

DITTO DITTO DITTO

the e collar is not a tool to magically make dogs do something...it is a tool to help maintain the training that you have done

Was talking to some clients the other day...I teach the e collar to be like a phone and when the dog isn't doing something I can text them to remind them what they are supposed to be doing as with the lower levels of stimulation the collars have today it just like tugging the check cord or the leash

Seek help to get YOU headed in the right direction now that you saw what you and your dog needs..ask the people you were with if they can suggest or even maybe help you hands on that is better then any book or dvd

[carlson.douglas.w]

I wanted to post a follow up to this thread. I took to training sessions using dummies with pheasant wings and scent affixed to them. I'd tie up the dog and drag a dummy to the long grass and then throw 3 dummies in the long grass. He took to it very well. Well, I went back to the gamefarm last week, this time only with 1 other hunter and 1 other dog. The difference was INCREDIBLE. My dog got 6 of the 8 birds up, and retrieved them after they were shot. <The other dog got the other 2 birds>. He still needs a lot of work, but he is definitely on the right track now and knows what he is out there to do. Thanks all for the advice. It's going to be a fun season come fall. We've got 1 major trip to South Dakota planned and a few smaller ones in SW Minnesota. I now feel good that he'll be up to the task and we will be a successful team. Thanks again.

[AzDoggin]

Very cool. Sounds like you have yourself a hunting partner.

Now the pressure is on to contribute as much to the hunt as your dog does

It's all good. Very nice job with your dog.

[Rossignol]

Nice work!