MH Question????????

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MH Question????????

Post by co1651 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:33 pm

Have you ever seen a dog get tossed in a HT for turning to mark on the back????? Not breaking position, but just turning to mark.....

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:10 am

I have in field trials, so am not surprised it happened in MH.

It is negative judging at its worst.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by co1651 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:28 am

yeah, it happened to my bracemate yesterday and I was shocked!!!!

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:34 am

Never actually witnessed it, but I can see it happening. BAD call.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:53 am

If the dog made no forward progress toward the bird, that is a bad call.

If so, mark the judges down that made that call. Then do not run under either of them again.

When your club discusses judges for trials or hunt tests and either name comes up...make an objection.

The dog did nothing wrong if it made no forward progress toward the bird. It is negative judging AND it is an error.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:28 am

Amazing what happens. I was in an open trial in Maine. A bird flushed out for some reason (I forget why). We knew where the bird landed and the judges said to move on and leave the bird. So we did went the whole course had 3 or 4 finds worked perfectly. The course circled back near the break away. My dog went back to the head of the course and found and pointed the bird. The judge told me to pick him up. I said why? Delayed chase. :roll: :evil: How stupid. This was 20 minutes from the first time the bird was located.

Another time, MH, run, dog found a bird It wild flushed before the gunners or myself, got to the bird. We moved on to the next bird worked much of the field for the next 5 min. my dog went back to that area and pointed the bird again, we got picked up. Why? Delayed chase. :roll: :evil: All perfect work, till then.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:03 am

Most of the time, the judges that make those sorts of calls are the ones that almost never handle, or have never handled, in the test level they are judging.
I'm glad the AKC raised the judging requirements in that regard; there are some folks out there that simply should not be judging.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:45 am

This is some bad judging!

First off it is not a delayed chase if the dog points the bird, it is a marked bird, and should have been counted as a nothing. But after 20 minutes it wasn't even a marked bird, it was a good find.

Rick, I don't think those judges like you much, it is just too bad to be negative judging, it had to have been personal.

That is tuff,

Neil

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:34 pm

the dog moved around ME to mark the bird as I was blocking his view he stopped on his own and remained standing for a good 30+ seconds with the live bird walking around 3 feet in front of him until they said leash them up...

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:49 pm

Even if the dog made forward some forward progress and then stopped on its own it should NEVER be enough for a judge to tell you to pick up your dog.

Many times when we train our "Master Hunt dogs" if the pointing dog does not act properly on the pointed bird we may send the backing dog for the retrieve. It keeps all dog sharp during the training and hunting situations. I would hope a dog has enough prey drive or hunting instincts or what ever name you want to give to it to keep its head in the game and it shouldn't matter if it is pointing or honoring. When a bird is flushed a dog should mark it.

It was a bad break, The good news is that the dog is at the level it needs to be to pass a MH test. You just got hosed on the clubs choice of judges.

Reech
Last edited by Reech on Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:48 pm

Neil, must have been because it was a Black and White Brittany, and the judge was an American Brit Guy. :wink:
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by snips » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:05 am

phermes1 wrote:Most of the time, the judges that make those sorts of calls are the ones that almost never handle, or have never handled, in the test level they are judging.
I'm glad the AKC raised the judging requirements in that regard; there are some folks out there that simply should not be judging.
All too many judges out there like this...Unfortunatly. We have seen it all...Just as they take one from you occasionally, there might be a judge that gives you a break....All part of it.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:28 am

Reech wrote:Even if the dog made forward some forward progress and then stopped on its own it should NEVER be enough for a judge to tell you to pick up your dog.

Many times when we train our "Master Hunt dogs" if the pointing dog does not act properly on the pointed bird we may send the backing dog for the retrieve. It keeps all dog sharp during the training and hunting situations. I would hope a dog has enough prey drive or hunting instincts or what ever name you want to give to it to keep its head in the game and it shouldn't matter if it is pointing or honoring. When a bird is flushed a dog should mark it.

It was a bad break, The good news is that the dog is at the level it needs to be to pass a MH test. You just got hosed on the clubs choice of judges.

Reech

I disagree with the above opinion. If the dog makes forward progress toward the bird...it is done. Period... end of story. You cannot change the standard. That is a slippery slope.

Based on the further explanation of the handler , that the the dog moved around im to see the bird, I can more understand the decision to pick up the dog. i personally still do not agree with that decision, and would have given the dog the benefit of the doubt, but I can tell you without a doubt that dog would be under my microscope for the rest of the brace and any further "liberties' around birds would be duly witnessed. I do not run in or judge Hunt Tests, just field trials, but the required manners around game is the same in both. Heck, if anythng, the requirment for manners around game in a Master Hunter is more demanding, or at least it should be.

I believe in giving the dog the benefit of the doubt...whenever possible.

I do not however, generally believe in giving the dog "a break" when doing so would allow a clear breach of manners. In a field trial, a minor breach of manners may be overcome by a superlative performance otherwise, but in a Hunt Test the dog either meets the standard or it does not. To allow a substandard performance to pass is to cheapen, lessen and denigrate the Hunt test titles that have been won by other dogs and that is just not right.

It sucks to have your dog be denied a pass, but the standard needs to be upheld or the title soon will become meaningless. A Master Hunter dog is supposed to be just that...a MASTER HUNTER and that should always be something to be immensely proud of..


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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:59 am

this is directly from the rule book

"A question, “How much forward motion is allowed?” —
a few steps to mark the fall or out of enthusiasm, if the
dog stops without command, would be permissible."

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:13 am

Even with the added explanation, I think this is a situation where I definitely would have left the dog down. It's kind of hard to judge from a description over the internet, though.
Regardless of whether it stopped on its own or not, though, a dog CAN move too much to pass. Depends on the situation.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:18 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Reech wrote:Even if the dog made forward some forward progress and then stopped on its own it should NEVER be enough for a judge to tell you to pick up your dog.

Many times when we train our "Master Hunt dogs" if the pointing dog does not act properly on the pointed bird we may send the backing dog for the retrieve. It keeps all dog sharp during the training and hunting situations. I would hope a dog has enough prey drive or hunting instincts or what ever name you want to give to it to keep its head in the game and it shouldn't matter if it is pointing or honoring. When a bird is flushed a dog should mark it.

It was a bad break, The good news is that the dog is at the level it needs to be to pass a MH test. You just got hosed on the clubs choice of judges.

Reech
I disagree with the above opinion. If the dog makes forward progress toward the bird...it is done. Period... end of story. You cannot change the standard. That is a slippery slope.
No one is changing the Standard. Read page 33 on the regulations for AKC Hunt test for Pointing Breeds. A dog that has taken steps out of enthusiasm or turned to mark as long as the dog stopped on his own is Permissable. This means that the dog didn't break because on the previous page it says a dog that breaks on a bird cannot recieve a passing score. Not changing the standard at all. I just know what the rules are. Which is why you still have judges who do not pass dogs because they do not know the rules.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:35 am

Reech wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
Reech wrote:Even if the dog made forward some forward progress and then stopped on its own it should NEVER be enough for a judge to tell you to pick up your dog.

Many times when we train our "Master Hunt dogs" if the pointing dog does not act properly on the pointed bird we may send the backing dog for the retrieve. It keeps all dog sharp during the training and hunting situations. I would hope a dog has enough prey drive or hunting instincts or what ever name you want to give to it to keep its head in the game and it shouldn't matter if it is pointing or honoring. When a bird is flushed a dog should mark it.

It was a bad break, The good news is that the dog is at the level it needs to be to pass a MH test. You just got hosed on the clubs choice of judges.

Reech
I disagree with the above opinion. If the dog makes forward progress toward the bird...it is done. Period... end of story. You cannot change the standard. That is a slippery slope.
No one is changing the Standard. Read page 33 on the regulations for AKC Hunt test for Pointing Breeds. A dog that has taken steps out of enthusiasm or turned to mark did not break as long as the dog stopped on his own. Not changing the standard at all. I just know what the rules are. Which is why you still have judges who do not pass dogs because they do not know the rules.

Reech
Reech, the only issue I have with your original statement is that you say a dog can make forward motion, but if it stops on its own, it should 'NEVER' be enough for the judge to pick up your dog. Maybe that was just misstated. It makes it sound like the dog stopping on its own is like some sort of trump card that overrides the dog's forward motion, no matter how significant.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:51 am

phermes1 wrote:
Reech, the only issue I have with your original statement is that you say a dog can make forward motion, but if it stops on its own, it should 'NEVER' be enough for the judge to pick up your dog. Maybe that was just misstated. It makes it sound like the dog stopping on its own is like some sort of trump card that overrides the dog's forward motion, no matter how significant.
If a judge sitting on a horse cannot tell the difference between a dog breaking on a bird and one that takes a few forward steps out of enthusiasm or one where a dog has moved around an object to get a mark on a bird weither it is honoring or pointing, Well the nicest thing I can say about it is that I wouldnt waste my money to run under his judgement. The only other thing is.

It's not My opinion, it is on Page 33 on the regulations for AKC Hunting test for pointing breeds.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:04 am

No need to take offense. I'm just saying sometimes there is such a thing as TOO much movement, regardless of the reason.
And I've read the rulebook a few times.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:24 am

phermes1 wrote:No need to take offense. I'm just saying sometimes there is such a thing as TOO much movement, regardless of the reason.
And I've read the rulebook a few times.
I am not offended, it takes more than a discussion on internet forum to make me mad.... It is very clearly defined as far as what moment is allowed. As far as the movement we were discussing in the first place all comes back to the original thread question. I have had birds fly directly over my dogs head and had to have the dog do a 360 in order to mark. I have had a bird flush from the pressure of me trying to find it from an area I wasn't looking at and had the dog relocate itself to get a better mark on the bird because I was blocking the dogs vision. Everyone of those instances I have had a judge complement me on my dog. You should always ask yourself... What would I want my dog doing in a hunting situation. These dogs are not machines and shouldn't be treated and trained in a way that makes them anything other than a Gundog.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:13 pm

Reech -

As I said at the outset, I do not do Hunt Tests, but I have read the rules as i was toying with the idea at one time. Sooooo, I went back anbd re-read my 2004 issue of the regs and checked the online updated version.

You are correct that the regulations go into a discussion of how many steps and they state "a few is permissible." Now to define " a few". That would mean more than two steps but less than...HOW MANY? Five? Eight?

What you have apparently forgotten was what was clearly spelled out on page 32, so I am pasting it here for reference:

A Master hunting dog must demonstrate steadiness
to wing and shot on all birds and cannot receive a
Qualifying score it if breaks. The handler may caution a
Master dog after it has established point. Cautioning, if
any, is expected to be quiet and infrequent. No intimidation
or physical restraint shall be permitted. The dog cannot be
commanded to retrieve until positive steadiness has
been demonstrated. A handler may send his dog to
retrieve after the bird has hit the ground and the dog is
seen to remain in position. A dog that breaks at any
time before it is commanded to retrieve cannot receive
a Qualifying score. Normally, a dog can move or turn in
place to mark the fall of the bird,

provided no significant forward motion is made.
________________________________________

This allows movement if the
bird should happen to fly behind the dog but,

again, there should be no significant forward motion.
_____________________________________________


I separated out and underlined the two clauses that you should re-read. Twice, not once , the standard says on page 32...no significant forward motion PRIOR to going into a discussion of how many steps are permissible.

The way I read the standard is this...If the dog spins and has happy feet that is OK, not great, but permissible...AS LONG AS THE DOG HAS NOT MADE SIGNIFICANT FORWARD MOTION.

We all need to read the whole rule...not just the part we agree with. Forward motion is NOT OK.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:35 am

Ray,

It has been my experience in the Hunt test game that you have to look at the entire body of work and look at the dogs performance in general. A Master hunt dog is one that requires very little handling through the course. They literally handle themselves. It is a thing of beauty to see a dog hunt objectives, use the wind and the terrain to its advantage. A dog is under judgement from the time the handler realeases it. It can be subjective on how to score a dog. The AKC does not set hard rules in my opinion because it knows that all dogs are going to run different. Try and judge a Spinone and a Shorthair braced together. The AKC asks that before a club selects a judge that they give consideration to a judges knowledge of dogs, A judges ability to have trained/handled a dog to the level it is judging, and in my opinion I would like to see a Judge who hunts his dogs also. This would also require a bit of common sense.

Given all of this. I can only speak for myself, however I can tell weither a dog is breaking or one that not breaking. The key phrase "NOT MAKING ANY SIGNIFICANT FORWARD MOTION." (I am not yelling just emphasizing for someone who comes into the conversation that this is where the main discussion is).

I can tell the difference between a dog moving to mark a bird, weither it is marking after the flush or marking from the honoring position, Or a dog that has "Bolted" from the handlers side. A dog that has NO Significant forward movement and then the handler allows the dog re-establish its steadiness WIth out Commanding the dog to do so, weither on point or on the honor will recieve a passing grade from me. The dog should basically never leave the handler until the handler releases the dog to either retrieve or continue hunting. Forward motion is so hard to define because once the bird has flushed what was once backward can now change to forward. I feel the dog has acted in a manner in which demonstrates that it is a "Broke" dog and a Dog worthy of being Called A Master Hunter. I look to see if the Handler and the dog are acting in unison in the field.

I am sorry but a dog not making any significant forward motion is Permissable.

How much forward motion is allowed?” — a few steps to mark the fall or out of enthusiasm, if the dog stops without command, would be permissible."

There is a big Difference between a dog breaking on a bird or taking a few steps to mark in any direction.

Reech

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by slistoe » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:57 pm

Reech, your attempts to deride others beneath your superior knowledge as justification of liberalism with the rule detracts from the credibility of your position.

The rules are quite clear - movement to mark is allowed as long as it does not involve significant forward movement. The OP described a dog that spun to mark which was most clearly within the limits of the rule and then the dog handler clarified with the dog moved around him, which would imply significant forward motion and is most clearly a contravention of the rule. Had the dog taken a step to the side to look past him then no foul is committed, but when he moves to gain not only a view but also forward position he is at fault.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:17 pm

slistoe wrote:Reech, your attempts to deride others beneath your superior knowledge as justification of liberalism with the rule detracts from the credibility of your position.

The rules are quite clear - movement to mark is allowed as long as it does not involve significant forward movement. The OP described a dog that spun to mark which was most clearly within the limits of the rule and then the dog handler clarified with the dog moved around him, which would imply significant forward motion and is most clearly a contravention of the rule. Had the dog taken a step to the side to look past him then no foul is committed, but when he moves to gain not only a view but also forward position he is at fault.
Wrong!

this is directly from the rule book

"A question, “How much forward motion is allowed?” —
a few steps to mark the fall or out of enthusiasm, if the
dog stops without command, would be permissible."

This site today really requires me to keep repeating myself. IF the dog had to take a couple steps forward to mark the bird it still shall be permissible MEANING PASSING SCORE! Fine if you dont like it much give me a 5 the rest of my scores were 8's

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:28 pm

slistoe wrote:Reech, your attempts to deride others beneath your superior knowledge as justification of liberalism with the rule detracts from the credibility of your position.

The rules are quite clear - movement to mark is allowed as long as it does not involve significant forward movement. The OP described a dog that spun to mark which was most clearly within the limits of the rule and then the dog handler clarified with the dog moved around him, which would imply significant forward motion and is most clearly a contravention of the rule. Had the dog taken a step to the side to look past him then no foul is committed, but when he moves to gain not only a view but also forward position he is at fault.
Read the entire book and then maybe I won't have to deride you and others. And no one is being liberal with the rules if you read page 33 and if you understand what the word means when a dog "Breaks." I especially love the part where "happy feet" ended up in the conversation on this thread as forward movement, when that is never mentioned in the rule book. That is an interpretation of the rules that judges are expressly prohibited from doing. I was wondering when it was going to get ugly. surprisingly it only took 2 pages.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:56 pm

Wow.

This really could have been a pretty good discussion if everybody wasn't so convinced they knew everything.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Reech » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:02 pm

I can't believe how many times I had to repeat myself anyway. I guess you need 1,000 post before your recognized as someone who knows what they are talking about. I don't need this to quailfy myself in the dog world. I am already respected by my peers...

I'm Done with this....

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:25 pm

Adam -

You need to read page 32 BEFORE you read page 33.

Repeat after me...NO significant forward motion is permitted. See page 32.

If the dog takes a dozens steps due to excitement but goes nowhere, that is fine. But if the dog takes a full step toward the bird that is about a foot, two steps is about two feet and three steps(minimum for "a few") is about three feet, which is about one full body length.

That to me is significant forward motion.

Oh and I don't buy that malarkey about different breeds needing special consideration. They all got four feet and when they are pointing...all four feet should be still. I have seen pointers, setters(all the types including the red and white), shorthairs, wirehairs, britts, vizslak, weims and even one small munsterlander at either trials or tests. Know what? When they pointed, they all stood still and didn't move.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:41 pm

Have you read the whole book or just the parts you want to go back and read page 26 and 27... a dog moving to mark a bird falls well within the rules call an AKC rep and ask thankfully i was able to ask the rep that was in the gallery at the test he said both I should've been good...

now the important part tell me why you would NOT want a dog to take a step or two if it would help them mark the fall of the bird which in return would make for a clean and quick retrieve??
Last edited by Adam on Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:58 pm

Adam -

I assume your most recent post was directed at me. If not, I apologize.

You might note that on my first and second posts on this topic, especially after the explanation, I said that I would probably have left the dog down, but would have watched any future bird work very carefully.

With all due respect to the AKC rep...they weren't judging and it ain't their call. Their opinion carries no more weight than mine...and I wasn't even there. The only opinions that count are those of the two judges.

If you disagree with the judges' opinions, don't run under them again. I think I said that too.

If it were my dog, I would be working on bombproofing the dog, so that it will not be an issue the next time I ran. I try to consider things like this as incentives to train harder to elevate my game.

Best of luck to you both in the future.


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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ayres » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:09 pm

I've personally met Adam and put some dogs down in the field with him. I have no doubt that he's going to proof for that situation. It still burns, though, to have a busted day because of a rule misinterpretation. Entry fees, travel expense, time, the whole lot - all lost because of a controversial call.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:17 pm

He'll soon make his son tux proud!

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Ayres
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ayres » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:42 pm

Already does! When I put Tux out in the field I see flashes of run that really remind me of Kobe. I am itching to change the SH to a MH on the pedigree, though. :wink:
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by slistoe » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:08 pm

Reech wrote: I was wondering when it was going to get ugly. surprisingly it only took 2 pages.

Reech
The only thing that turned ugly was your third post on the whole subject and you became more demeaning from there on. You turn it ugly and then wonder when it will get ugly? How patronizing is that?

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:09 am

Scott -

I wonder why no one has ever come back with a definition of the word "few" in the context of "few steps".

We know that "a few " is at least three because a couple is two. But what is the upper limit? When counting small things, or rare occurrences out of a large population, "few" can be anywhere from three to one hundred.

Why in the world would the AKC say twice on one page that no significant forward mottion is permissible during an attempt by a dog to mark a bird and then on the very next page say, in effect: "Naaaah, we were just kidding with that no forward motion stuff. A dog can take a good run at the bird and as long as it stops before it catches it without the handler yelling, that's OK. It is still a Master Hunter." Sounds right to me. NOT.

I will say this...I do not do hunt tests, but if I did, I would be contacting the AKC and request a clarification on this one. Can't have it both ways. I might see cutting a dog some slack at the Senior Hunter level but at the Master Hunter level one should strive for, and expect near perfection.

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Adam
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:22 am

Once again there is a difference in "breaking" and taking a few steps out of enthusiasm,steps around an object to mark the bird and if you can't distinguish between them we do not need you up in the saddle.

You have yet to explain why as a HUNTING dog you would not want your dog to move around an object to mark the fall of the bird remember these are HUNTING tests. What is "perfection"?

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by slistoe » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:34 am

Don't worry Adam, I can most certainly distinguish between the two, and I can also understand the application of an allowance for a few steps to mark a bird within the overarching precept of no significant forward motion.

And certainly, as I wild bird hunter, I do not want my dog making significant motion disturbing other birds of the covey while I am reloading my shotgun - unless I decide.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:14 am

Adam wrote:Once again there is a difference in "breaking" and taking a few steps out of enthusiasm,steps around an object to mark the bird and if you can't distinguish between them we do not need you up in the saddle.

You have yet to explain why as a HUNTING dog you would not want your dog to move around an object to mark the fall of the bird remember these are HUNTING tests. What is "perfection"?
Adam -

In the context of hunting and hunt tests, perfection, to me would be spinning smartly in place with ZERO forward progress to mark the bird that flew overhead, the dog's head held high, riveted on the flying bird and all four feet firmly planted in place... unless of course the cover is high and the dog pops up on its back feet to check out where the bird went. I kinda like that too.

So, the concept of no significant forward progress would be approaching perfection, which is what a Master Hunter should be all about, in my opinion. To me a Master Hunter should show all the style and class of a FC and AFC in the field, but be considerably more subservient to the gun. If not, then what is the point of the exercise?

You seem to be focused a little too much on: "What is the minimum I need to have my dog squeak by." It might be better perhaps if you set your sights on "What is the best I can do with my dog?" "What can I do to blow these judges away.?"

I guarantee you this: If your dog stood like a rock, rooted in place, when that bird buzzed by overhead and did nothing more than turn or raise its head, it would have passed with flying colors, you would be immensely and justifiably proud and we would not be having this discussion.

Take no prisoners. Go for the gold.

RayG

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Adam
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:20 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Adam wrote:Once again there is a difference in "breaking" and taking a few steps out of enthusiasm,steps around an object to mark the bird and if you can't distinguish between them we do not need you up in the saddle.

You have yet to explain why as a HUNTING dog you would not want your dog to move around an object to mark the fall of the bird remember these are HUNTING tests. What is "perfection"?
Adam -

In the context of hunting and hunt tests, perfection, to me would be spinning smartly in place with ZERO forward progress to mark the bird that flew overhead, the dog's head held high, riveted on the flying bird and all four feet firmly planted in place... unless of course the cover is high and the dog pops up on its back feet to check out where the bird went. I kinda like that too.

So, the concept of no significant forward progress would be approaching perfection, which is what a Master Hunter should be all about, in my opinion. To me a Master Hunter should show all the style and class of a FC and AFC in the field, but be considerably more subservient to the gun. If not, then what is the point of the exercise?

You seem to be focused a little too much on: "What is the minimum I need to have my dog squeak by." It might be better perhaps if you set your sights on "What is the best I can do with my dog?" "What can I do to blow these judges away.?"

I guarantee you this: If your dog stood like a rock, rooted in place, when that bird buzzed by overhead and did nothing more than turn or raise its head, it would have passed with flying colors, you would be immensely and justifiably proud and we would not be having this discussion.

Take no prisoners. Go for the gold.

RayG
I'm not one to try and squeak by that bitch in my signature has 7 master passes in a row all with quality scores.. I wish I could draw a picture or have a video from the event as I think if you'd seen what happened you truly being a hunter would've had no problem with what the dog did. It was a shitty situation and had I been the judge and been concerned about it I would've set it up again and seen what happened..

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by DeadwoodDogs » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:19 am

One thing my experiences have taught me about testing is to take the scores you get and go home. I advise my clients not to get too excited as there have been days when I felt I should have passed and didn't - and there have been days when I passed and I shouldn't have. The judges score what they see combined with their knowledge and experience....heck, I even had a MH judge ask me to produce a bird when my dog was the backing dog because the pointing dog was a bye dog. I couldn't produce the bird and the judge said we failed.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:15 am

DeadwoodDogs wrote:One thing my experiences have taught me about testing is to take the scores you get and go home. I advise my clients not to get too excited as there have been days when I felt I should have passed and didn't - and there have been days when I passed and I shouldn't have.
Thank you, that's the most sensible post yet.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by dan v » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:47 pm

Ray,

I've judged a few HT's...and been known to judge a few FT's as well...even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express :mrgreen:

Anybody that plays these throw down events knows how man-made, contrived they are. The birds do things that no wild bird would. The handlers are put in position that they would never find themselves in while hunting. So I think, as a judge, a person needs to understand the man-made aspect of the games. I know you do from things you write.

I try not to penalize the dog for a handler error, but sometimes a judge has no choice. The judges in this instance felt they needed to DQ the dog. I wasn't there, but I can picture the set-up....I'd have left the dog down...maybe I wouldn't have liked the piece of work, but then again I might have.

Was that the only honor the dog had? If so, judge it. If the dog had shown another back that had a bird shot and retrieve made, then you have another piece of work to consider. But I sure wouldn't do a callback to see it again.

One step is one step...a couple is two...and a few is three, not any more...not 4-5-6 that's a bunch...nope, a few is three.

Now that I think about it...maybe the judges thought Adam was blocking the dog.....had he not been in front (if he was) and instead was standing off the dogs shoulder, maybe the dog would have broke?
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Adam
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Adam » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:44 pm

Good questions.. I was standing off to the dogs right shoulder.. This was his only back and it was in a callback situation he handled 3 birds flawlessly in the field..

I know this isnt the best picture but its what I could create at work..Image

white ovals are the dogs and the black part of the ovals is the way the dog was facing. The big gray circles are the 3 judges

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by dan v » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:33 pm

Do you see where the judges might have thought you blocked the dog?

You know, they made a decision...and you might like the one they made, but they have to stand behind it, right or wrong.

3 judges? or more like 2 judges and an apprentice? Anyway, it was a good brace for the apprentice to be out on, he may never see something like that again.

I'm more inclined to chalk up to "sh*t happens"...it can be either a really bad experience, or used as a positive one, in that a good well natured discussion can go along way to educating those around. A good question and answer session, with calm voices, can really ease the tension and be a learning experience.....for all.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:21 pm

Why would you need 7 master passes in a row? You only need 6 for the title when you do not do SH and only need 5 when you do SH?

One never knows what the judges saw or thought they saw and they never back off there decisison. One can go crazy if one keep drilling things over and over.

At least I used to then I just let it go and do it again and be better prepared.

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Re: MH Question????????

Post by dan v » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:33 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:Why would you need 7 master passes in a row? You only need 6 for the title when you do not do SH and only need 5 when you do SH?

One never knows what the judges saw or thought they saw and they never back off there decisison. One can go crazy if one keep drilling things over and over.

At least I used to then I just let it go and do it again and be better prepared.

Rick
Jonathan Brandt has a Gordon male with something like 19 MH passes.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by phermes1 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:04 pm

I have a friend with something like 14 MH passes. Shooter has 7, mainly because I was at a HT anyway so entered him just to give him something to do and he ended up passing both days.
The folks that I know that keep going do it simply because they don't have much else better to do. :)
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Sharon » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:14 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:Amazing what happens. I was in an open trial in Maine. A bird flushed out for some reason (I forget why). We knew where the bird landed and the judges said to move on and leave the bird. So we did went the whole course had 3 or 4 finds worked perfectly. The course circled back near the break away. My dog went back to the head of the course and found and pointed the bird. The judge told me to pick him up. I said why? Delayed chase. :roll: :evil: How stupid. This was 20 minutes from the first time the bird was located.

Another time, MH, run, dog found a bird It wild flushed before the gunners or myself, got to the bird. We moved on to the next bird worked much of the field for the next 5 min. my dog went back to that area and pointed the bird again, we got picked up. Why? Delayed chase. :roll: :evil: All perfect work, till then.

LOL I feel better after reading that. I've got a better one.

Dog points. Birds flush on their own. Dog holds until I get there. Judge tells me to try and flush a bird in the same place where we all saw the birds leave. Dog , who is peeking over his shoulder at where the birds flew to, gets charged with an unproductive. LOL I wasn't laughing that day. It's fine to say, don't trial under those judges again , but what if the judges are the same every weekend. :roll:
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:44 am

That never dawned on me. Nor had I heard of one that did that.

So they just do it for the heck of it as you only get one MH title is that not right. I would say to each move on to a more fun venue like trials or NAVHDA. There is something to do.
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Re: MH Question????????

Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:48 am

Sharon, it is stuff like that and other stuff I have seen that would keep me from wanting to do it fo 19 or seve or anymore than what I would for the title. It is a good experience but I think I would end up getting banned from the AKC events if I kept going. I can only hold my tongue for so long. :roll:
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