Touching a dog while on point?

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by BigShooter » Sat May 01, 2010 3:35 pm

Now Rich if you could just stick to your hands off approach down at the bar you'd be all set. You either have style or you don't. :wink:
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by DGFavor » Sat May 01, 2010 4:38 pm

take it away Douglas
:lol: :lol: I haven't read all this but think I got the gist. All I know is if it ain't there, you don't have to mess with it!!
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Gives you more time to work on the important stuff! :wink: :
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 01, 2010 5:01 pm

Guess Ferrel Miller ain't got it huh :p

Pretty obvious to me anyway that the technique he used (quickly rubbing the tail up and down) has
a soothing effect on pups and staunches them up....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Yawallac » Sat May 01, 2010 8:10 pm

So if your going to work the planters,,,,,, IMO quit spending all that time out infront of the dog pretending to flush,,,, go to the launcher and release or release when your still a hundred yards back. But all that fake "kicking of bushes" when your out in front of the dog does more harm that good,,,, especially on dogs that already know the game. The dog has to be thinking "Hey Bub,,, You and I both know the bird is over here in this bush, so I'm just going to stand here and have a smoke until you decide to get your happy arse over here and release it".
Rich, you wild bird guys got it made!! :D

If you are going to compete in throw-down trials, the dog MUST be taught that there will be flushing attempts that more resemble a Beounce dance routine than anything you'd ever expect to see while bird hunting! ...because the brainless, flightless, worthless rats with feathers have less natural flying ability then their distant cousins the dodo bird! You have to train for it and you have to train your dog to remain intense during the whole charade.

What would you and Doug do if you actually had to train a dog!?!? :D (You know I'm kidding!)

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Neil » Sat May 01, 2010 9:32 pm

I am not sure how this got controversial.

Since the use of barrel/platform work, and style after the flush became important to some judges, nearly all of the top pros stroke their dogs up on point, certainly the winning shooting dog pros do.

Now it is another topic if high style is important after the flush, I think the dog's job is done, but there are places you cannot win with a dog that lets down until he is collared away. So if you want to win, you best put your hands on them while they are on point, I know of no other way to keep them high and tight after the birds leave.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by DGFavor » Sat May 01, 2010 9:42 pm

What would you and Doug do if you actually had to train a dog!?!?
:lol: :lol: I've actually been thinking of trying to train Scoots to do some sort of stupid party trick to entertain at lunchtime in camp...looking like that would be his best chance at a little fame. The getting a beer out of the cooler schtick has been done to death so gotta do some thinkin' for some new material...

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by BigShooter » Sat May 01, 2010 9:55 pm

Doug - and here I was going to suggest that Scoots bring you a Blue Ribbon .... Pabst that is. 8)
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by smokinsam » Sun May 02, 2010 1:29 pm

I will stroke then tap my dog lightly to relocate him if needed.
sometimes he is low in front and i will lift him up a bit but not much more.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 02, 2010 2:44 pm

smokinsam wrote:I will stroke then tap my dog lightly to relocate him if needed.
sometimes he is low in front and i will lift him up a bit but not much more.
sam, what you are talking about is a little different. You are touching your dog for a reason, especially when you want to relocate him.

I believe fieldtrialing is a great sport, but one of the reasons I can't get enthused or serious about it is all the artificial things judges want to see. I will probably get jumped on for this comment, but this is just me and I am in no way intending to knock any field trials or the people who enjoy them. We have enough outsiders who want our sport to go away without fighting amongst ourselves. :wink:

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by M1Tanker » Sun May 02, 2010 8:02 pm

No touching on wild birds during training but I have been known to touch em with planted birds and the pup on the checkcord.

I like to kneel reel in the slack and kneel down beside the dog. I will then lightly push forward on their rumps...two things could happen:

1. They hold and push back a bit.

2. They break and you have to correct.

In my experience, they usually are so intense that they push back and then I stroke their side and they get even further up on their toes.

Different strokes for different folks. I agree that you probably don't have to touch em to style em up, but that is they way I was taught.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by BoJack » Mon May 03, 2010 3:22 pm

What M1Tanker said.
Dog On Point!!

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue May 04, 2010 6:35 am

Yawallac wrote:
If you are going to compete in throw-down trials, the dog MUST be taught that there will be flushing attempts that more resemble a Beounce dance routine than anything you'd ever expect to see while bird hunting! ...because the brainless, flightless, worthless rats with feathers have less natural flying ability then their distant cousins the dodo bird! You have to train for it and you have to train your dog to remain intense during the whole charade.
That is an unfortunate truth. This is one instance where the wild bird dog does, in fact have it easy. No self respecting wild bird would ever run toward the dog as a result of a flushing attempt, much less run underneath it!

If you do not train a dog to resist that level of temptation and sometimes, even if you do...they most likely will not be able to resist. That is a really tough part of the planted bird game.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Duane M » Tue May 04, 2010 8:50 am

If touching a dog on point is enough to distract it then how much intensity does it have? :lol: I've watched quite a few guys do everything from simple stroking of the sides to pickng the dog up with no issues at all so no problem with me on this one.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Duane M » Tue May 04, 2010 8:53 am

birddog1968 wrote:Guess Ferrel Miller ain't got it huh :p

Pretty obvious to me anyway that the technique he used (quickly rubbing the tail up and down) has
a soothing effect on pups and staunches them up....
Yep he's one I just was talking about along with others, but hey what do they know, they aint on the internet. :lol:

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by snips » Tue May 04, 2010 9:47 am

I am still not seeing from all these posts what benifit it has. I have never touched a dog on point until I started running AKC trials and I had to go to them to collar them. At that point I stroke them. But that is after birds are gone. I have dogs with all the style they need, why touch them? And if they did not have the style they need, I do not see it helping to touch them :roll:
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue May 04, 2010 9:54 am

Touching the dog while on point is soothing, its like petting a cat. I like to touch my dog so I can remain calm. :wink:
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Yawallac » Tue May 04, 2010 10:24 am

I like to touch my dog so I can remain calm.

That's good. :lol:

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Tall Boy » Tue May 04, 2010 7:07 pm

All through out yard working (which is the name-of-the-game in my opinion) I stroke my dogs with just my finger tips once or twice to confirm that what they are doing is correct. When a dog, especially a young dog, is on point I will do the same finger tip stroke after I have styled the dog. This is to confirm that what the dog is doing is correct, like I have done hundreds of times in the yard already. Now with an older dog I will only approach the dog occasionally, usually just walking in to flush.

As far as styling goes, it is your dog and if you do not care about styling then that is just one less thing to pressure your dog with. Being that I am a trainer/handler on a plantation, half of what I do is a show for the guests so styling is just part of it. And I can tell you for a fact, that it is possible to change a dogs demeanor on point, but most of this is done in the yard. If you do your homework, your dog will understand the subtle corrections you give him in the field, because he's felt them before.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by zzweims » Wed May 05, 2010 8:17 am

Yikes, I just read this thread. All this talk of 'touching, soothing and stroking tails', makes me wonder if I'm on a dog forum! How you guys can write this stuff with a straight face is really quite impressive :lol:

p.s. whether I touch or not, is a private matter between me and my dogs :mrgreen:

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by BigShooter » Wed May 05, 2010 8:38 am

Aline,

Following up "on your point" .... at least everyone stayed on topic & talked only about touching the dogs ....... classy folks on this forum to be sure! :lol:
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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Sprig » Fri May 07, 2010 7:08 pm

:lol:

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddog1968 » Fri May 07, 2010 7:44 pm

snips wrote: And if they did not have the style they need, I do not see it helping to touch them :roll:

Yea it did nothing for names like Silver Bullet, Chief, Silver Ending, Online...... :P
It obviously wasn't to add style that wasn't there and didn't hurt these champions at all.


If anyone is really interested in the why's and how's Im sure Mr. Millers video could
give some insight. Probably be real easy to sell again here after your done with it.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat May 08, 2010 10:36 am

Wow,,,,, sounds like somebody's got a "man crush" on Ferrill.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 08, 2010 5:43 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:Wow,,,,, sounds like somebody's got a "man crush" on Ferrill.

Hard not to value a persons opinions with that much success.....well over 1000 wins and 100 championships. Who's opinion should I take as WORD ! :D

I can say Ive never seen anything detrimental in touching a dog on point if done with some forethought.....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by 578SLE » Sat May 08, 2010 9:52 pm

When I originally posted on this the thread, I said that may professional trainers are very successful touching dogs on point. However, I have come to learn that many successful trainers are training dogs from a particular line or that respond well to a particular style of training. Their success in the field is often unbeatable, but by the same token many of these successful trainers also don't talk about the dogs that don't make the "cut," the "culls," the dogs that are sent home, the ones that are 'left behind" in the parking lot. Sorry if this hits a nerve with anyone, but I feel it needed to be said. Locally, we have such a "professional" dog trainer that has taken several pointing dogs to the AKC National Gun Dog Championships and has won in the retrieving stakes. He is a great dog trainer to be sure! He will touch a dog, pose a dog, slam a dog, move a dog, or whatever it takes from hanging a dog in a harness to grabbing it by its ears and giving it a good lashing. He gets results and he wins. But he is also not able to, or willing to, train "all" bird dogs. He has ruined more than one "bleep" good bird dog, and is known for being very, very hard on dogs. I would never let him train my dog, and yet, he has more titles than I do. On the other hand, we have another local "professional" trainer who does not give a rat's arsh about competition, field trials, or hunt tests and gets all the culls, washouts, screwed up dogs from all these other "pro" trainers and steadies them all to WSF. He makes great bird dogs out of them. The owners walk away pleased knowing that this guy is as honest as the day is long and that their dogs are in good hands when they are with him. Many of the "culls" this guy trains go on to earn their AKC MH titles. He almost never touches them on point and takes a much more natural approach to training them.

Different dogs need different strokes and different strokes are for different folks.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Ridge-Point » Sat May 08, 2010 10:25 pm

birddog1968 wrote:If anyone is really interested in the why's and how's Im sure Mr. Millers video could
give some insight.
I really like that video. One thing Ferrell stressed is getting your hands on your dog all the time, that way he is used to you putting your hands on him when you stroke him up on point. I don't think that video is setup for beginners, but I do think there is some great stuff to learn in there. I wouldn't try alot of the stuff he does in that video. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just not my cup of tee. Still a great vid to watch.

I personally do not put my hands on the dogs on point, but there is no doubt some people are talented enough to add a little style that way. Some of those guys can make the dog strike a pose. For someone like me, I don't see an advantage to messing with them on point, I want them focussed on the bird. That doesn't mean someone else can't get some benefit from it.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddog1968 » Sun May 09, 2010 10:45 am

Most of what he does regarding touching the dog is done in training, shouldn't be much need
in touching the dog while hunting or in a trial.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Duane M » Mon May 10, 2010 10:21 am

Rich Heaton wrote:Wow,,,,, sounds like somebody's got a "man crush" on Ferrill.
And someone else sounds like a bitter little troll :lol: :lol: :roll: Respect is not a man crush.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Tall Boy » Mon May 10, 2010 6:14 pm

578SLE wrote:When I originally posted on this the thread, I said that may professional trainers are very successful touching dogs on point. However, I have come to learn that many successful trainers are training dogs from a particular line or that respond well to a particular style of training. Their success in the field is often unbeatable, but by the same token many of these successful trainers also don't talk about the dogs that don't make the "cut," the "culls," the dogs that are sent home, the ones that are 'left behind" in the parking lot. Sorry if this hits a nerve with anyone, but I feel it needed to be said. Locally, we have such a "professional" dog trainer that has taken several pointing dogs to the AKC National Gun Dog Championships and has won in the retrieving stakes. He is a great dog trainer to be sure! He will touch a dog, pose a dog, slam a dog, move a dog, or whatever it takes from hanging a dog in a harness to grabbing it by its ears and giving it a good lashing. He gets results and he wins. But he is also not able to, or willing to, train "all" bird dogs. He has ruined more than one "bleep" good bird dog, and is known for being very, very hard on dogs. I would never let him train my dog, and yet, he has more titles than I do. On the other hand, we have another local "professional" trainer who does not give a rat's arsh about competition, field trials, or hunt tests and gets all the culls, washouts, screwed up dogs from all these other "pro" trainers and steadies them all to WSF. He makes great bird dogs out of them. The owners walk away pleased knowing that this guy is as honest as the day is long and that their dogs are in good hands when they are with him. Many of the "culls" this guy trains go on to earn their AKC MH titles. He almost never touches them on point and takes a much more natural approach to training them.

Different dogs need different strokes and different strokes are for different folks.
I have a kennel full of "culls", and almost all of them have turned into nice dogs.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Hattrick » Mon May 10, 2010 8:04 pm

I`m new to training, this is what i`ve learen so far..... I believe you have to adjust your training to the temperament of dog period.. If they are breed right then they have it... the rest is up to the trainer to harness that drive in a controlled manner ,what ever that takes a little pressure or alot.

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by Yawallac » Mon May 10, 2010 8:37 pm

He almost never touches them on point and takes a much more natural approach to training them.
I'm not sure what 'natural approach' means. I think what I do is pretty natural, at least it seems natural to me. :D

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Re: Touching a dog while on point?

Post by birddog1968 » Mon May 10, 2010 8:54 pm

Yawallac wrote:
He almost never touches them on point and takes a much more natural approach to training them.
I'm not sure what 'natural approach' means. I think what I do is pretty natural, at least it seems natural to me. :D
That's funny Ross.....

I was stuck on the AKC hunt test thing :mrgreen:
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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