Almost Sitting on Point?

[gitrdone]

Hey, I am new to the forum and a couple months ago I acquired a 3 year old male GSP that was headed to the shelter. I spent a couple of months just letting him be a dog and get use to things. I understand that he was going to be used to run in NSTRA and as soon as I got him I could tell he had a ton of pressure put on him in the past. He is one of those dogs that just wants to please and shows that he is afraid of getting in trouble. I recently put him on 3-4 birds (pigeons) in two different outings. I was told that he flags but I have not had any flagging. He has been super intense on point and looks great most of the time but a couple of times he hit his birds so hard that he skidded to a stop but his back end was almost on the ground and stayed in that position rather than elevating after the stop to the extent that he was almost sitting down on point and he was afraid to move at all, even if it was to just elevate his back end? What are your opinions on this and is there anything that can be done to help him?

Thanks
Les

[ezzy333]

Not a problem I don't think. He froze in the position he was in when skidding to the stop. That's what you want in my opinion. If he was standing tall when he stopped and then lowered himself that might be a problem. Just let him learn with exposure and I think you will be OK>

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

If you're not going to field trial with him it's not a problem. You know you won't necessarily get the same kind of a point on pigeons as you may on wild birds, especially if the dog was trained a lot on pigeons. If you can get in some runs on wild game birds that'd be great. Then you'd have a better idea of how he's going to look and act during a hunt. One thing he'll probably learn on wild birds if he's smart, is that he won't be able to slam into a close point on them, without a flush.

On the other hand if this is happening because he doesn't have a great nose there'll be little you can do.

[578SLE]

Not a problem I don't think. He froze in the position he was in when skidding to the stop. That's what you want in my opinion. If he was standing tall when he stopped and then lowered himself that might be a problem. Just let him learn with exposure and I think you will be OK

Sounds like good advice to me.

[snips]

I have seen dogs do this out of certain bloodlines..But if you are hunting, no biggie..

[gitrdone]

Thanks y'all for your advice. No, I will not be trialing him, just hunting. He actually has a great nose and usually hits his game 20-25 yards out on average and that has been on pigeons. I have just heard of some bloodlines a long ways back(in Germany if I'm not mistaken) where it was even acceptable for a dog to essentially lay down on point and I have seen some trainers use an e-collar around the flank to make correction to a dog that wants to lay down when whoaed and when bumped it's almost like a hydraulic jack unerneath the dog. He kind of cowers a bit when whoaed in the yard and I wondered if this may have something to do with why this is happening? Just another indication in my opinion of the pressure that was put on the dog?

Thanks
Les

[boberosagundogs]

Sometimes we train pointers that do a similar thing. Most guys don't mind it as long as the stay staunch on point. You assumption on the ecollar could be correct you can really mess with a dogs brain if you use one imporperly. My suggestion is if you can live with it then let it be. If he make you happy on a hunt then I'd live with it. It probably could be fixed but not really needed. Mendota makes a product called an EZtrainer that we use that helps correct the sittting problem. It connects to thie collar and wraps around thier waist if thier hips drop we just pick them up with the rope and repostion them, after a little repetition they usually pick up on what we want. Its a soft approach to a small problem.

[BigShooter]

Mendota makes a product called an EZtrainer that we use that helps correct the sittting problem. It connects to thie collar and wraps around thier waist if thier hips drop we just pick them up with the rope and repostion them, after a little repetition they usually pick up on what we want. Its a soft approach to a small problem.

I was tempted to add this advice as well however we just had a thread about touching a dog on point (such as lifting them up) & I didn't want to start the debate all over again. An amateur messing with an already slightly messed up dog at this point in their training relationship might affect the dog's intensity on point or even lead back into the flagging issue. I'm pretty sure most pros could fix it because they can usually read dogs so well during training but it's one of the last things I'd work on if I were the OP (original poster). JMO

[snips]

I personally am not a fan of gimmicks to fix a dogs style. It is impossible to tell on a Forum what caused it, if anything. The dogs I have seen that did this, did it because that was the way they pointed. And if that is the case, then what you see is what you get...You will not change how you dog hits a point. The dogs I saw do this were all out of one litter (certain bloodlines) and they did slam the point with intensity. But their butt would hit the ground:( Absolutly nothing wrong with it if you are hunting...I spoke to a AKC rep about judging dogs in hunt tests doing this..Interesting, as I had seen dogs that were flunked because if their style...He said the dog should not flunk, but should receive lower scores in pointing. He said they should be judging a dog for hunting, and if they were a good hunting dog it should not fail them...(kinda off subject).(Footnote, he said if the dog hit the point standing, but went down on approah or while flushing he would probably flunk the dog).

[ezzy333]

I personally am not a fan of gimmicks to fix a dogs style. It is impossible to tell on a Forum what caused it, if anything. The dogs I have seen that did this, did it because that was the way they pointed. And if that is the case, then what you see is what you get...You will not change how you dog hits a point. The dogs I saw do this were all out of one litter (certain bloodlines) and they did slam the point with intensity. But their butt would hit the ground:( Absolutly nothing wrong with it if you are hunting...I spoke to a AKC rep about judging dogs in hunt tests doing this..Interesting, as I had seen dogs that were flunked because if their style...He said the dog should not flunk, but should receive lower scores in pointing. He said they should be judging a dog for hunting, and if they were a good hunting dog it should not fail them...(kinda off subject).(Footnote, he said if the dog hit the point standing, but went down on approah or while flushing he would probably flunk the dog).

May be off subject but is good. I am still of the opinion from what I have read on this post that there really isn't a problem. Sounds to me like this was a one time occurrence when the dog slammed a point in close and knew he couldn't move. Exactly what we want. I didn't read where this was an ongoing thing that needed correction. Was I wrong?

A big concern I have after reading thread after thread on this and other forums is that many newcomers or first time owners are so concerned about training that they are making common ordinary reactions of a dog into a problem. And most of us in our effort to help immediately jump on the band wagon and start advising how to correct the "problem", when in fact if we just ignore it and let the dog learn it will correct itself if it really was a minor problem in the first place. In this case the pup slammed a point and was in an awkward position but was smart enough to hold it since he was close to the bird. That doesn't mean to me that it is a problem since this seems to be a onetime occurrence.

Lets all be sure there is a problem before we start fixing it and also lets be sure we get enough info from someone to know if it is a dog problem or just a nervous first time trainer problem. Both are real and need fixing but the methods are completely different.

JMO
Ezzy

[Munster]

I have seen this done on a friends Viszlas. He will sometimes come up to the dog on point and put some pressure on the hind end. The dog will push back and stand taller. But then you get into the arguement about "touching" your dog while on point.
Works for this guy and he has very good dogs with hunt and field trail champs. Just a thought.

[mudhunter]

I wouldn't worry about it. I would be very careful how many birds you give this dog, don't give it a lot or I bet you will see some more problems creep in (like the flagging). Also I would be curios to hear what birds the dog was broke on, some dogs will only flag the birds that they had pressure put on around and not other birds. Good luck and have fun (and go slow).

[daniel77]

I personally am not a fan of gimmicks to fix a dogs style. It is impossible to tell on a Forum what caused it, if anything. The dogs I have seen that did this, did it because that was the way they pointed. And if that is the case, then what you see is what you get...You will not change how you dog hits a point. The dogs I saw do this were all out of one litter (certain bloodlines) and they did slam the point with intensity. But their butt would hit the ground:( Absolutly nothing wrong with it if you are hunting...I spoke to a AKC rep about judging dogs in hunt tests doing this..Interesting, as I had seen dogs that were flunked because if their style...He said the dog should not flunk, but should receive lower scores in pointing. He said they should be judging a dog for hunting, and if they were a good hunting dog it should not fail them...(kinda off subject).(Footnote, he said if the dog hit the point standing, but went down on approah or while flushing he would probably flunk the dog).

I couldn't agree more about the use of gimmicks. They are generally desperate attempts, rather than useful tools. This also brings to mind a thread (that I was bashed pretty hard in) on whether or not to teach "sit" to pointing dogs. Seems that they can sit on point without that (some say) foolish command being the culprit.

[birddogger]

Huh? :roll:

Charlie

[boberosagundogs]

Are you guys talking about the Ez trainer as a gimmick? Its a checkcord with a d ring on it. You just loop the cord back throught the d ring and around thier flank. It just elimintes the need to make the knot around thier flank. We like it better because it acts more like a slip lead around the flank releasing easier that a tied knot. The EZ trainer is just specifically made for that function. We use the flank loop alot when we are using a whoa post to teach the whoa command. Here is a link to the video on how the Ez trainer works. http://www.mendotaproducts.com/eztrainervideo.htm I would concider it far from a gimmick.

[BigShooter]

Are you guys talking about the Ez trainer as a gimmick? Its a checkcord with a d ring on it. You just loop the cord back throught the d ring and around thier flank. It just elimintes the need to make the knot around thier flank. We like it better because it acts more like a slip lead around the flank releasing easier that a tied knot. The EZ trainer is just specifically made for that function. We use the flank loop alot when we are using a whoa post to teach the whoa command. Here is a link to the video on how the Ez trainer works. http://www.mendotaproducts.com/eztrainervideo.htm I would concider it far from a gimmick.

I think folks may have had their minds back on this recent thread: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 89&t=23433

In the thread a lot of people didn't think you should touch a dog on point. I wonder if they were thinking more about it's gimmicky to mess with a dog on point rather than the EZ trainer is a specific gimmick. I could be wrong.

[snips]

I use a regular dog collar on their rear for whoa work, hook lead to neck collar and dog collar on rear for setting them back. I then hook the CC to rear collar for CCing the dog. It is not a gimmick but a training method...Now, once a dog is trained, cut loose and doing what they are suppossed to do, at that point, messing with a dog with contraptions to get his style better would be a "gimmick", IMO. Pushing down on a dog to raise them taller, stroking tails, ecollar to raise them up, bristle brushes under them, on and on.... IMO, is a gimmick...As it may help their style as you are doing it, but next point he hits will be as he points naturally. What a dog is born with is, for the most part, is what you got...............

[boberosagundogs]

I use a regular dog collar on their rear for whoa work, hook lead to neck collar and dog collar on rear for setting them back. I then hook the CC to rear collar for CCing the dog. It is not a gimmick but a training method...Now, once a dog is trained, cut loose and doing what they are suppossed to do, at that point, messing with a dog with contraptions to get his style better would be a "gimmick", IMO. Pushing down on a dog to raise them taller, stroking tails, ecollar to raise them up, bristle brushes under them, on and on.... IMO, is a gimmick...As it may help their style as you are doing it, but next point he hits will be as he points naturally. What a dog is born with is, for the most part, is what you got...............

Gotcha. With my personal dogs I agree. With breeding alot of times you get what you get and a dogs style is as individual as thier personality. One the professional end of things when its a customers dog they want a given result as it might be the only dog they will own for the next 15 plus years. If they want us to try and fix a style issue we can give it an honest effort. Guys want us to "dress up" thier dogs point. Most of the time we have to tell them it is what it is. Like you said though, more often than not its never 100% perfect all of the time. It looks great once but then they run over the top of a bird and catch the scent right over it and thier point isn't "perfect" When it comes to style most of the time a dog has what you want or doesn't. As long as they serve you need as a family compainion, hunter, or both the style should be secondary. With our field style is about half of the battle in the springer world they are all great hunters for the most part but, style cannot be trained into them.

I'm liking this place already...Its a great place for discussions of all types. I love talking dogs.

[smittysmith777]

the best setter that i have ever owned has that same thing going on.. the first year i would grab hold of his tail and stand him up but i said the heck with it the dog is steady and has a nose and a half.. and i could not be more happy with him .. thats his style so i let it be.. it looks like he is sqwuting on point