Field Trials rigged?

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jhorak
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by jhorak » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:48 pm

I think we got a little off track here. I was really just looking to see if FTs are so political that it wouldn't be worth my time, or if I'd still have a chance in spite of no connections. Clearly almost everything in life is subjective (although I do believe in absolutes), so I wouldn't expect field trials to be any different. I was just hoping that they wouldn't have an abnormally large element of subjectivity! Sounds like it will be a lot of fun to get started in them.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by fuzznut » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:16 am

Know the rules of the trial you are entering, understand what the dogs are out there to do, bring a good dog, properly trained, handle him well, and yes, you will get looked at just as everyone else is.

Show up bragging and boastful, don't know what is expected of you and your dog, allow your dog to run amuck and no, you probably will not get a good look.

Nothing more fun then watching someone new to the sport walk away with one of the ribbons.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Sharon » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:53 am

Good advice above.

Don't be like the guy at my last trial:

Shows up 10 minutes before he has decided he should be on the line.

Finds out his brace will be after lunch.

DRIVES out to the field to find the judge to ask him to run his brace before lunch.
Comes back mad . Calls the person who gave him a rough estimate of his brace time a liar.
Drives off hollering, " I know where you live!"

Unlikely he will be looked at again. :)
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:13 am

Shadow wrote:so you feel wrestling is the fairest- sure hope you don't mean that fake stuff

ah- you come from a wrestling family- how many matches have you had- perhaps you had a couple brother wrestlers- or one maybe a long time coach-

speaking of FT- you ever run your meat dogs in NSTRA- rigged as you didn't win- or rigged so you won't ever enter

I most definitely don't mean the "fake stuff". I've had plenty of matches, although it has been 20 years. :cry: Actually after thinking about it, even wrestling can be subjective with stalling being called and back points being interpreted. Golf, I would have to say is the fairest. No one to blame but yourself, and no one is going to help you put the ball in the hole.

Listen, I'm not "sour grapes" about anything. I have no desire to run FTs. Most guys I have encountered say they do a lot less actual hunting and fishing once they start trialing. I have seen trials of all sorts, and enjoyed going, but isn't going to compare to the real thing. I was merely passing on knowledge from friends that are active in all types of trials. Also, they weren't bitching about it, just explaining the reality of the competition, and the biases that exist in some judges. I'm glad guys trial, that way they do my genetic work for me, and I don't have to do it myself. :D

If I were to run anything it would be NAVHDA. That seems to simulate the job I want my dogs to do in the field the most. Like I said, I'd rather shoot Huns, Sharpies, Phez, Ducks, geese, etc. than trial. I'm not saying my dogs would win anything, although I think they would hold their own. I don't know of many FTers who hunt and fish as much as I do, simply due to time constraints.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by dan v » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:28 am

Birddogz wrote:
If I were to run anything it would be NAVHDA. That seems to simulate the job I want my dogs to do in the field the most. Like I said, I'd rather shoot Huns, Sharpies, Phez, Ducks, geese, etc. than trial. I'm not saying my dogs would win anything, although I think they would hold their own. I don't know of many FTers who hunt and fish as much as I do, simply due to time constraints.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to watch, and judge when they are entered in AKC HT's, some of the top NAVHDA handlers in the nation. By in large the dogs leave me wanting for more. Not for more manners around game, not for more desire to retrieve....but they do seem more than a tad dependent on their handler. Not all, but enough to make me wonder. I like a dog that has a more free spirit, one looking to take matter in his own hands.

Now, I kid you not...you are going to kill plenty of birds with those dogs. But for me, it's more than the killing...it's about getting some of the dog work that "I" like. If the NAVHDA dogs float your boat...perfect, they just don't float mine.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:41 am

I would admit that you are right about being dependent. I hunt a lot of pheasants and waterfowl. You need a dog that will sit still and take commands in a duck blind. No room for a free spirit in a blind. While pheasant hunting, especially with 4-5 other hunters you need a dog that is in control. I will admit to being a little bit of a control freak when it comes to waterfowl and phez. However, when I let my dogs go in the Sand Hills they are very independent. THey know they can be, because I have allowed them to be. Their independence comes out in that circumstance. What I like about NAVHDA dogs is that they have proven to have the intellect/mentality to take instruction. I do not demand that my dogs behave like a NAVHDA dog, but the lines that do well in NAVHDA are very biddable dogs, which I like.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:56 pm

My dogs run 2-400 yards when I am hunting the open prairies for Huns and Sharpies. Never any further though. If this is considered too close then I am guilty for sure. I just physically can't get to a point that is much further in time for birds to be holding. Also, I don't really want to have to run to a point. :lol: Not sayin' I haven't walked really fast! :lol:
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by dan v » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:35 pm

gpblitz wrote: I'm sure there are alot of dogs at AKC HT"s that leave you wanting more. IMO one of the problems with NAVHDA dog is run . Navvhda trainers seem to suck there dogs in vs. letting the dogs roll. There are alot of NAVHDA judges looking at a dog that runs a walking gun dog race a self hunter and penalize the dog. Although this is getting better. I'm amased at how close some want to kept there dogs. The over all picture with a NAVHDA bred dog is if you want a biddable bred hunting dog you can not go wrong. The other side of the coin is some of these dogs could have the run a walking trialer is looking for if the they were trained in a different fashion. allowed to run vs. quarter, quarter and handle , handle. JMO
Yes there certainly are large numbers of AKC HT dogs that leave me wanting more. But the quality of the dogs goes up pretty fast when you watch the SH/MH levels, whereas a bunch of the JH dogs leave me wanting to gouge me eyes out. The difference, or what I see, is the NAVHDA dogs are entered in MH for this reason. 1) They are getting ready for the Invitational and need to be run in a brace. So that tells me that these are near the "cream o' the crop". Lest anybody misunderstand, those NAVHDA dogs are frickin' nice....just not for me.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Shadow » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:17 pm

Dan- I'd bet that boy of yours is a joy to be behind in pheasants

byw- like how speak

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:40 pm

Birddogz wrote:Wow. Defend FTs much? :lol: I have said they are flawed, and that I disagree with the importance they put on race. I never said they were worthless, I simply see them as flawed. Every single FT guy I have had a beer with will agree with me, with the exception it looks like, being you. I didn't start this thread by the way as you have insinuated. I merely have passed on what I have been told by EXPERIENCED FTers. I am thankful that FTs exist, and know they have contributed positively to bird dogs. Is that clear?
I am sorry Birddogz, I used the word "you" when a generic term to refer to the original post should have been used. I did not mean to insinuate that you started the thread, merely that you proffered support for the original premise which I hold to be completely untrue as a general statement. Since we are on confusing use of language, I don't see saying that field trials are flawed is the same as saying there are flaws in field trials. The former denotes a totality.

There are flaws that exist in field trials in general and there are flaws that exist in individual trials, but the original premise that they are rigged to the point of being impossible for the newbie is not one of them and neither is the inclusion of race as a critical component of a quality bird dog a flaw.

But I certainly agree with you on one thing - we would not have the quality of bird dogs we have today without field trial competition.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Keny Glasscock » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:26 pm

You pay your money, you takes your chances. Can't win if you don't play. Or you can sit around whinning about how you were "done wrong". Losing builds character.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:37 pm

Slistoe,
Every form of bird competition is flawed. Just like what Winston Churchill said....."Democracy is the worst form of government that exists, but it's better than all the rest." :lol: :lol: Kind of like FTs, they aren't the best, but they are better than all the rest. They do not require retrieving, which I do not like, but what they do that is the best is figure out which dog has the highest prey drive. This in my experience is 75% of what a bird dog needs. The other 25% is split into various categories. Not just FTs either, I mean NAVHDA, NASTRA, etc. All the competitions and hunt tests serve a purpose. I am grateful for all of them as they allow me to select great genetics for the TRUE perfect test, hunting wild birds with me. :D I wasn't trying to say that FTs were rigged so that a newbie couldn't win, only that there are humans judging, and when that happens there is bias involved by definition. FTs are wonderful. They do my work for me, so I can pursue wild birds with the best genes that are available. :D Field Trials speed up the progression of bird dogs by light speed. Kind of like evolution on steroids! :D
Last edited by Birddogz on Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:52 pm

On another note, I am curious as to what FTs could do in the eyes of Fters to make them better. If anything. Just curious as to what anyone's suggestions would be. I don't really have enough knowledge on the subject to interject. Just would be interested in your thoughts.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Sharon » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:55 pm

Keny Glasscock wrote:You pay your money, you takes your chances. Can't win if you don't play. Or you can sit around whining about how you were "done wrong". Losing builds character.

LOL . Well , if that's the case, I must have an outstanding character. :)
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Keny Glasscock » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:02 pm

Birddogz wrote:On another note, I am curious as to what FTs could do in the eyes of Fters to make them better. If anything. Just curious as to what anyone's suggestions would be. I don't really have enough knowledge on the subject to interject. Just would be interested in your thoughts.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by dan v » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:05 pm

Birddogz wrote:Slistoe,
I wasn't trying to say that FTs were rigged so that a newbie couldn't win, only that there are humans judging, and when that happens there is bias involved by definition. FTs are wonderful. They do my work for me, so I can pursue wild birds with the best genes that are available. :D
Forgive me if I attribute something to you that you didn't state.

But it's a far cry from bias to political. Everybody has a bias when they judge. I hate trail runners. Yes I understand it's a way, a fast way, to the front, and I generally won't hold that against a dog. But I give the dog that digs more credit. But that bias in no way gets me a favor from somebody else at a future time. Political things do.

What could help FT's?

1)Having a larger pool of more knowledgeable judges. Not judges who only know birddogs from field trials.
2)Grounds bigger than a postage stamp.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:06 pm

I meant in the format.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:13 pm

Well between, akc, Af, AFTCA, BDC, NAVDA, NASTRA and I am sure others that I haven't heard of...i think we got her surrounded

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by birddogger » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:21 pm

Field trials are games and like any other game, whether it be baseball, football or whatever, over the years people have decided what the rules are going to be in order to make that particular game interesting and competitive. The thing about field trials is that if you don't like the rules in one venue, there are others that have different rules. For instance, if you don't like the fact that a particular trial venue does not score so much on the number of birds found and birds are not shot and retrieved, participate in one that does. In every sport the rules are in place for a reason.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:34 pm

This is getting a little ridiculous. I'm just curious if anyone has any ideas about making Fts or any other bird challenge more effective. If you have none, say so. I'm simply curious. I'm not questioning the validity of anything. Chill out all. This is similar to a company asking employees if they can be more efficient in some way. No accusations, just looking for improvements. I hold no power, this is done purely with a mind that is curious and ignorant to the process.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:48 pm

You see Birddogz, this is America where thumbing tradition IS the tradition and so every conceivable "improvement" that someone could think of has been done - and they called it a different format. It still happens today that new "Organizations" are cropping up with their own version of the way things should be. Then the format evolves, or people find the perceived shortcomings and they move to a different format - or create another new one. The latest that comes to mind is the VHDF. The testing system used in Europe for ages to develop the style of dogs these fellows preferred wasn't good enough - they needed a born in NA version and NAVHDA was born. Then NAVHDA didn't seem right so VHDF was organized - by some of the same people who founded NAVHDA. In the meantime the German testing system was imported and organized because it was the "right" way. Of course the folks involved with AKC wanted something and developed the Hunt Test program, but all these are not sufficient so the French Brittany folks found a home with the UKC to devise an evolving testing system for their perceptions. The same type of progressions can be seen in the various trial formats. So when you come up with an improvement take a look around - there is most likely a format incorporating it already. In the end, the traditional field trials are where the genetics are found to create dynamic performers in all the venues, and the people who understand the traditional field trials and compete in them on that basis do not see a need to "improve" the format - that has already been done in history and the results speak for themselves.

So, improvements to traditional field trials:
1. Bigger grounds with better access to wild birds across the country.
2. More semi-pros - amateurs who have the time to dedicate to a stable of dogs and the resources to campaign and hunt them across the country. These folks are the basis of the judging pool - they have the depth and breadth of experience to assess what they are seeing in a bird dog and they help maintain the standard of competition.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:30 pm

Great post Slistoe, I see your point about America, and it is right on.
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Duane M » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:06 pm

Well I see that the
Image

still goes on :lol: :lol:

Some are fair and the types matters as much as anything, thats second hand in some venues I never ran in but from guys who have and do win none the less. Best advice I could give know what you are potentially getting into and who ya are getting into it with.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by hardlinedrives » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:18 pm

I have had good experiences with AKC pointing trials. Just the weekend variety, but if you have an outstanding dog and they handle kindly, sometimes I think you get an even more fair judgement because you have no history, no politics, etc. In such a situation as this, when your dog does an amazing job, finds a bird, slams on a point, etc., the judge gets to enjoy the purity of the dog work since they have no preconceived notions about you. Many events are inclusive and if you want to do it and your dog is exceptional, you should go for it. Remember that on Hunt Tests your dog is judged according to a standard and they either qualify or don't whereas Field Trials are competitive and even the pros have their dogs get beat. There can only be one 1st place in any field trial category. I have enjoyed both field trials and hunt tests as an individual dog owner and have placed and qualified in both. You should at least go check it out!

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by north country guy » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:54 pm

JMO. if a pro brings a big trailer full of dogs he will be darn hard to beat !!! they want him back again with all them dogs for there next trial :wink: again JMO ...

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by shags » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:48 pm

north country guy wrote:JMO. if a pro brings a big trailer full of dogs he will be darn hard to beat !!! they want him back again with all them dogs for there next trial :wink: again JMO ...
He better be hard to beat...he trains for a living and takes folks' hard-earned money to do it. He has the time and facilities to get the job done, unlike the amateur who squeezes dog work and conditioning in between a job, commuting, and family obligations and does it on a couple of acres with a couple of birds if he's lucky. On the other hand, there are plenty of pros that have percentages to their advantage, but have been beaten by amateurs.

How do you explain trials where multiple pros enter? They all can't win every stake.

IMO someone who gets beat a lot and gripes about trial politics needs to review his/her training regimen 8)

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:04 pm

north country guy wrote:JMO. if a pro brings a big trailer full of dogs he will be darn hard to beat !!! they want him back again with all them dogs for there next trial :wink: again JMO ...
So you think the club tells the judge which one should win or do they just let him mke up his own mind as long as he places a dog from each pro? Wonder what happens if the judge forgets and just places the best dog?

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Chukar12 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:53 pm

I am an amateur and I couldn't agree more that the reason pros are placed more in FT stakes than amateurs is because they are better...ususally better trainers and handlers. You want proof? See how many dogs they get around clean in an open stake v how many get around clean in an amateur stake it is usually a stark difference.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:25 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I am an amateur and I couldn't agree more that the reason pros are placed more in FT stakes than amateurs is because they are better...ususally better trainers and handlers. You want proof? See how many dogs they get around clean in an open stake v how many get around clean in an amateur stake it is usually a stark difference.
Plus they have a 100 of the better dogs to choose from.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:39 pm

north country guy wrote:JMO. if a pro brings a big trailer full of dogs he will be darn hard to beat !!! they want him back again with all them dogs for there next trial :wink: again JMO ...

Maybe it is a regional thing, but if we are talking AF open stakes...the pro trained dogs are, on average, much better bred, better trained and better handled. In AF stakes, it is mostly pros versus pros. Not too many amateurs go head to head with the pros around here. There are a few, and their dogs are generally on a par with the best the pros put down and the placements reflect that.

If we are talking AKC open stakes, then it is not at all uncommon for amateurs to beat pros hereabouts.

Pros go where their clients tell them to go. Pros place their clients dogs regularly. If they don't... they will, very often, be minus a client.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Sharon » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:16 pm

The day I beat Mike Tracy I'll let you know. :wink:
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by myerstenn » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:51 am

There is a learning process that newbies go thru in the ft game, so dont expect to beat everybody of the get go. the biggest problem I see is new people bring the first dog they ever trained to their first few trials .They dont win or place so they become disenchanted and then the the whole process is rigged. I personally like a little new cannon fodder at our trials! My point is , they need to hang around for a while and learn what kind of dogs it takes to win in these events.That may mean getting a new dog and starting over again. The field trial game is a labor of love, keep working ,keep asking questions and keep running. Oh, dont expect the good old boys who do this every weekend to run you over kindness and information, they have seen a lot of newbies come and go , hang around for awhile you'll get all the help you can stand.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by SeniorCoot » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:03 pm

B S-Good dog= good handler- good rsluts- may take a while and yes some judges are biased towards certain type of dog and handler etc BUT it ain't no different than horse shows- dog shows- etc-- best dog usually wins.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:11 pm

Sharon wrote:The day I beat Mike Tracy I'll let you know. :wink:
Sharon -

If I am braced with Mike Tracy, I have every confidence I can beat him occasionally. What I cannot do is beat all ten or twelve of the outstanding dogs he brings to the line in a typical stake. I might beat half of them, but the talent he keeps pulling out of his trailer will get you, sooner or later.

That is pretty much the way it is with most of the successful pros. You can beat some of their dogs, but usually not all of them. Since you got to beat ALL of them to get the blue...that don't happen much.

It does set the bar high and keep you working hard, though.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by slistoe » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:59 am

RayGubernat wrote: If I am braced with Mike Tracy, I have every confidence I can beat him occasionally. What I cannot do is beat all ten or twelve of the outstanding dogs he brings to the line in a typical stake. I might beat half of them, but the talent he keeps pulling out of his trailer will get you, sooner or later.

That is pretty much the way it is with most of the successful pros. You can beat some of their dogs, but usually not all of them. Since you got to beat ALL of them to get the blue...that don't happen much.

It does set the bar high and keep you working hard, though.

RayG
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Rich Heaton » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:01 pm

I have heard pro's say and to me this logic makes sense,,,,,, the biggest threat to them is a top ranked amateur. Why,,,, they get to pick and choose the dogs they want to train,,,, where as the pro's have to take the dogs that will put food on the table. I think alot of pro's have the attitude they would be unstoppable if they could put together a string of their choosing. This kinda of drives home the point of "What makes a good pro is good owners",,, so you not only have to have great owners that will financially back the dog but also owners that the pro can say,,, "Hey lets find a different home for this one and I want you to go buy this dog site unseen". Which I assume could be a tough conversation to have with an owner of there pride and joy.

But Ray's logic holds true,,,, its tough to show up with one bullet and go up against a 23 bullet pro,,,, odds are he will have a few dogs that will be drawn on the "good" course at the "good" time of day,,, and the reality of having your one bullet drawing out well is not very good.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by dan v » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:12 pm

Rich Heaton wrote:I have heard pro's say and to me this logic makes sense,,,,,, the biggest threat to them is a top ranked amateur. Why,,,, they get to pick and choose the dogs they want to train,,,, where as the pro's have to take the dogs that will put food on the table. I think alot of pro's have the attitude they would be unstoppable if they could put together a string of their choosing. This kinda of drives home the point of "What makes a good pro is good owners",,, so you not only have to have great owners that will financially back the dog but also owners that the pro can say,,, "Hey lets find a different home for this one and I want you to go buy this dog site unseen". Which I assume could be a tough conversation to have with an owner of there pride and joy.

But Ray's logic holds true,,,, its tough to show up with one bullet and go up against a 23 bullet pro,,,, odds are he will have a few dogs that will be drawn on the "good" course at the "good" time of day,,, and the reality of having your one bullet drawing out well is not very good.
Rich,

I guess another way of saying that is, "A pro trains the dogs he gets sent, the amateur trains the dog he wants." The pros are always trying to develop a string of good owners, and place talent with them. But what has got to be very hard, is telling somebody that their pride and joy ain't gonna make it.

Pros win, fact. They have to...but they do have numbers on their side. I may run one or two, against a pro with 10-12 in the same stake.
odds are he will have a few dogs that will be drawn on the "good" course at the "good" time of day,,, and the reality of having your one bullet drawing out well is not very good.
The last two time I run the dog in the avatar, he was drawn in the AA at 2:30pm when the temp was 93, the next weekend 3:30pm and uppers 80's. He had a find at 28 the first weekend for 3rd, and birdless the next. But I left very pleased with the effort.
Dan

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Rich Heaton » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:50 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Pros win, fact
No question,,,,, a major circuit pro will beat an average handler most of the time even with a lesser dog,,, he'll just plain out handle ya. Those guy's that find themselves in the winners circles alot aren't there by accident, they are good trainers, handlers, they know the courses, they know what the judges are going to be looking for and they don't make stupid mistakes. Its just hard for an amateur to have all the experience the pros do.
Wyndancer wrote:But what has got to be very hard, is telling somebody that their pride and joy ain't gonna make it.
Yea and in the next breath telling them the price of the dog they should go buy or just handing them the reciept and showing them there new dog.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:01 pm

All field trials are rigged, all shows are rigged, all hunt test are rigged, judges are biased and no pro is better at training than me training and handling my dogs. You know how I know? Because my dog is the best in the world at everything and they should know it and I just said so. : :lol: mrgreen: Really, just kiddn' or am I? No, really I am. :wink:
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by rustyrat » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:59 am

field trials as a sport can only be described as a group commiting slow and painful suicide. i suggest you go to http://www.remekvizslas.net/ftHome.php4 and do a few statistical analysis of the info hed there. From how birds are released to who and how often people are judging it is a sad state of affairs. unfortunately i'm addicted to the sport. i have developed an ever growing list of individuals that i refuse to run under. much to several clubs dismay. its too expensive and the dogs seem to enjoy it just as much when i have a scabbard and a shotgun as when i only have the garmin astro. the sport has been severely crippled by field trialers "individuals who grew up at trials whose only hunting experience comes when the pigeon explodes from the release trap and they miss. that judge from a rule book and look very favorably on their friends dogs. in the early '90's as a statistical project at Penn State Behrend i analyized over 20 years of American Brittany field trial results and exposed info that was so incrimminaing that the prof had the data resubmitted it held. as was stated earlier all judges are human and i begrudge no one their chance but once every 365 days is enough
Winnen

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by phermes1 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:02 am

Well, at least you're not bitter or anything... :)
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by SeniorCoot » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:55 pm

The best part of training is taking a shot bird from pups mouth and later eating it.

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:14 pm

rustyrat wrote:field trials as a sport can only be described as a group commiting slow and painful suicide....From how birds are released to who and how often people are judging it is a sad state of affairs...i have developed an ever growing list of individuals that i refuse to run under....its too expensive and the dogs seem to enjoy it just as much when i have a scabbard and a shotgun as when i only have the garmin astro...the sport has been severely crippled by field trialers "individuals who grew up at trials whose only hunting experience comes when the pigeon explodes from the release trap and they miss...that judge from a rule book and look very favorably on their friends dogs....and exposed info that was so incrimminaing that the prof had the data resubmitted it held...as was stated earlier all judges are human and i begrudge no one their chance but once every 365 days is enough.
Rusty, you are going to kill yourself ... put on a smiley face run the pups, shoot some birds, chew the fat, but for gosh sakes, try to ENJOY life rather than rippin it to heck!
rustyrat wrote:i have developed an ever growing list of individuals that i refuse to run under. much to several clubs dismay
I doubt they care. As I was told, clubs, associations, teams are all bigger than one individual.

Move on...

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:53 pm

My Goodness Rusty Rat,
it sure seems we get a much more controllable picture in life when we look in the mirror rather than out the window...doesn't it?

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by rustyrat » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:27 am

unfotunately Rookie you are incorrect. Look at the data i've pointed out. the numbers or shall i say the falling numbers are not all do to economic reasons. in fact the numbers were falling when the country was booming. here is an example to ponder: in the '80s here in western pa we had a walking type association i believe it was NBHA affiliated, you literally had a hard time getting a dog entered. its gone, not due to lack of interest as the walking trials are growing but people just couldn't handle the designated scouts and other less than open rules that were dreamt up. As for looking in the mirror vs out the window, correctly run trials generally grow, yes there are cycles but organizations that put on a good show are generally rewarded. i understand that AKC has complicated acquiring judges but the same judges week after week year after year?? is not good. I participated in all facets of trials, from developing ground, judging, being the secretary. there is a huge difference between a judge putting up the type of dog he or she appreciates and an individual that puts up other individuals he or she rides with, bought or sold a dog too, has dogs of the same lines etc. trials need to grow and i've watched as organizations shoot themselves in the feet trying to make their field trial into a fund raiser for other club activities. the old kart in front of the horse over and over. Trust me my dogs and those in my care have yet to complain when i'm not at a trial but instead we go shooting birds. the question was " are field trials rigged?" 50/50

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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:02 am

jhorak wrote:Hello, I've got a question for those of you who have experience with field trials. Does the average joe have any chance of placing in them? I am considering getting into them at some point (although hunt tests will be my first step), but I have been told by my dog's breeder that it isn't worth my time because unless I am a professional trainer who is "in tight" with the right people, there isn't even a slight chance that my dog would ever place. I'm asking specifically about spaniel field trials. Any input?

I am less then the average "Joe" , I am the average Jolene. I was able to put " Walking trials, Derby Dog of the Year for Ontario, Region 13" on two of my dogs.
If you've got the dog, you'll do well. If not ....................
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Re: Field Trials rigged?

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:28 pm

I was told by more than one person on this board that handling a dog in a trial is a whole lot different than training one. Well needless to say my Pointer and I placed a 2nd and 1st in the only two coverdog trials we have entered :wink: It can be done and it is well worth trying even if you don't walk away with a prize, the experience alone is worth the entry fee.

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