Why use e-collars?

[Kato&Sanka]

Hi, I'm curious as to why many hunters use e-collars...as in, what functions do you use them for? How do you train a dog with an e-collar without diminishing it's want or "fun factor".

I see sooooo many people inappropriately use e-collars, and because of this, so many people I talk to think e-collars are the root of all evil. So, if I could get some examples of the use of e-collars in hunting, as I think this is a place where an e-collar is well suited, or if I could even be pointed in the direction of some good videos demonstrating the proper use of an e-collar, that would be great! I really want to show them that it's not the tool, but the technique...but I'm kind of standing on my own as I have no proof to show them as I do not use e-collars and my dogs are not specific to hunting.

[Tall Boy]

Wow, where to start? First of all you need to forget everything you've heard or seen because obvioulsy it is wrong. I see it all that time, especially with my Dad's clients, the average non-gundog owner. Yes the e-collar can, has, and will be abused forever but like any tool that is 100% the fault of the trainer. If used properly the ecollar takes a lof of unneeded pressure of a dog due to the improved timing of corrections. It also makes for a much snappier/tighter dog for the same reasons.

I incorporate it into almost every part of a dog's training as an overlayed correction. Hopefully Mourice Lindley will get on here, he has a method that is devolped around the ecollar, that I really like. The main thing I tell people is to remember that using the ecollar for training actually takes longer. It is not a tool just to make the job easier, you still have to just as much "regular" training, even more to appy it properly.

[gonehuntin']

Quite simply, the ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog, with the Astro a very close second. I would never run a dog without an ecollar and really don't understand people that won't use it.

As with any training tool, it's as good or as bad as the person using it. There should be no debate as to the effectiveness and humaneness of the ecollar. Most people just don't understand it or won't take the time to learn it.

[Shadow]

Quite simply, the ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog, with the Astro a very close second. I would never run a dog without an ecollar and really don't understand people that won't use it.

interesting gone- I've not had to resort to a shocker collar- old school- and that's since 1972-shocking the dog is not the answere to haveing a good dog-

hands on and knowing dogs is

it's a cop out- safety and all that crap- if your dog hunts for you you don't need to shock it

[birddogger]

I would venture to guess that the people who abuse it would use some other drastic, inhumane tactics if the e-collar was not available. I agree with the above posts and believe it is the most valuable tool there is when used properly. For one thing, timing is so crucial in training, and the e-collar allows a person to make an instant correction or reinforcement of a command. It shouldn't be harsh at all, unless you need to break an unwanted behavior which, as GH eluded to, is for the dog's safety, and that usually only takes one time. You should think of it as an invisible lead and on the proper setting will cause no more discomfort than a tug on the lead. There is a lot more to be said to explain how to use it but I don't like to make a post too long, so I will stop here.

Charlie

[birddogger]

Quite simply, the ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog, with the Astro a very close second. I would never run a dog without an ecollar and really don't understand people that won't use it.

interesting gone- I've not had to resort to a shocker collar- old school- and that's since 1972-shocking the dog is not the answere to haveing a good dog-

hands on and knowing dogs is

it's a cop out- safety and all that crap- if your dog hunts for you you don't need to shock it

Shadow, first of all I am glad to see you are back. I remember a post of yours not too long ago where you were wishing you had an e-collar.

Charlie

[Kato&Sanka]

Thanks for the replies.

I have nothing against e-collars. The people I know are the ones sooo opposed to it. They repeatedly post videos of people using e-collars on aggressive dogs or to simply teach a dog how to sit. That's incorrect use of an e-collar.

But I always point out that the tool is not being properly used. They then ask me how to properly use an e-collar or if there are any videos to showcase the proper use of the tool. And that's where I'm left hanging. I know of some people who use e-collars for hunting, but since I don't use them myself, I can't offer much input on how to properly use the collar.

These people are super positive reinforcement based. They believe that since essentially anything can be taught using treats and positive reinforcement that there is no need for aversives or e-collars. (not sure if you all consider it a total aversive). So, they always question the reason behind having an e-collar, the use, and how a dog is taught to respond to the e-collar. But again, since I have no personal experience, I can't really offer much insight.

And please, feel free to post as long a post as you want.

[kninebirddog]

I like the e collar to help maintain training

thing is they got the name Shock collar from when they first started out and todays collars are nothing like they were of yesterday

There are people as you can see that still refer to them as Shocker collars...That is archaic in thinking about them

I use mine lightly they have less stimulation value then that of tugging on the collar with a leash...you can be as light with a collar as anything

I would much rather be able to give my dog a command and have a way to follow through then hollering and screaming for a dog that is blowing you off

and since I trial my dogs and I guide with my guide compliance is very important to me and can be the difference in my dogs safety as I can remind my dog with a light stimulation to do what they are supposed to do and remain with out having to jabber a word and then my dog remains out of potential harms way

it is really how you use them and approach them but todays collars can make training much easier for a dog

I have read many Old school methods pre ecollar and when you had renegade dogs some of the ways they got compliance lets just say it was pretty crude Google Er M Shelley see some of his methods on how to stop a dog from bolting to if they break on birds and he was a top trainer trailer of his days

My dogs look forward to the e collar because there is nothing negative about the way i use it when it needs to be used

[zzweims]

If e-collars harm dogs, then mine are all defective

Aline
http://zzfarms.com

[RayGubernat]

I am all for positive reinforcement and i am certainly not above bribery, as I routimely use treats when training a puppy and sometimes even an older dog.

However, all the postive reinforcement or bribery in the world will not stop a dog that is chasing a rabbit directly into a four lane highway.

An e-collar WILL stop that dog nd keep it alive.

Dogs do only what they percieve to be in their best interest. They are our friend and stay with us because we feed them. They obey us because we are the pack leader. When we begin to ascribe hman emotion, feelings and motives to canines, we begin to go astray.

What a lot of folks, who do not hunt, simply do not understand is that sporting dogs are not generlly underfoot or even close at hand. They are out well beyond the range where they can be influenced by the trainers' physical presence. What they also do not understand is that a hunting dog HAS TO operate independently of its handler, at least to a degree, if it is going to be successful.

Taken together, they pose a special set of risks to a sporting dog and place a very heavy burden on the obedience training that the dog receives. Without a way to renforce that obedience training at extended distances, the dog will, sooner or later, learn that at a certain distance, it CAN begin to ignore the handler. That is where the e-collar, which is essentally a mile long check cord, will show its true worth.

FWIW, my dogs wear and e-collar whenever they are afield and not in competition. However, if you asked me when was the last time I actually used it on a particular dog, I would have to think about it. In one or two cases the answer would be: ' I had to nick the dog at a low setting once...about three years ago." in most cases, I would have to think about it and say: " Last time was a training session about six months ago."

If the trainer has done their job correctly, those kinds of e-collar experiences are much more the norm.

RayG

[Tall Boy]

That is where the e-collar, which is essentally a mile long check cord, will show its true worth.

FWIW, my dogs wear and e-collar whenever they are afield and not in competition. However, if you asked me when was the last time I actually used it on a particular dog, I would have to think about it. In one or two cases the answer would be: ' I had to nick the dog at a low setting once...about three years ago." in most cases, I would have to think about it and say: " Last time was a training session about six months ago."

If the trainer has done their job correctly, those kinds of e-collar experiences are much more the norm.

RayG

Exactly

[gonehuntin']

Quite simply, the ecollar is the greatest safety device ever invented for the dog, with the Astro a very close second. I would never run a dog without an ecollar and really don't understand people that won't use it.

interesting gone- I've not had to resort to a shocker collar- old school- and that's since 1972-shocking the dog is not the answere to haveing a good dog-

hands on and knowing dogs is

it's a cop out- safety and all that crap- if your dog hunts for you you don't need to shock it

"Shocking" the dog has never been the answer to having a good dog, but training one is. You, by your own admissions, don't even obedience train your dogs. If you valued a well trained dog, you'd train with a collar.

It's a tough post to even answer. It's so full of non truths and misconceptions, that I don't even know where to begin.

[Shadow]

I don't obedience train- don't even train actually- just always started a youngster with an experienced- pup sees- pup learns- simple hands-on in a field works for youngsters- I've set them back- seems they're not stupid- few times they get the idea

jacks and cotton tails- thought about getting an ecollar so I could shock them off- Shadow will stop when I holler or blow the whistle- pups- not there yet

you can't see them as any good because I don't obedience tain- your opinion

my three youngsters did just fine in pheasants last season- some were big on you can't start 4 month old in pheasant- another opinion

[birddog1968]

Ive got dogs trained (reinforced really) with collars, Ive got a dog not trained with collar. Done right there is no real difference.

[ezzy333]

The simple answer is that an e-collar is a long check cord which is a long leash. No more or no less. You use them all in the same manner to control your dog. One is no more harsh than the other but all are basic training tools for any dog. If you want your dog to sit you probably have taught it to sit when you pull up on the leash. Then as training progresses you can use the CC when the dog is a little further away or you can use the E-collar when the dog is a 100 yds away. Technically the leash/CC/e-collar are not training tools but are reinforcement tools to insure the dog does what you have trained it to do.

They are a great tool when any dog is off leash but the basic rules still stand. You teach the dog what you want and use the collar to enforce the command when the dog is off leash and several ft.yds away from you.

As Shadow says they are not necessary but any trainer worth his salt will use them to aid in a dogs training. Not using a collar is a lot like not using a car, not necessary but sure speeds up getting to town. However if a dog is only going to be a foot or two away from you then the leash is long enough, if it will be 20 ft away then the CC is long enough and if the dog is going to be 100 yds away the e-collar is long enough.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

I agree with everything you said except this.....

...... but any trainer worth his salt will use them to aid in a dogs training.

Ezzy

I work with a trainer who has won national championships and he uses no collars, unless a client wishes him too.
To be "worth their salt" a trainer does not need to use a collar, plain and simple.

[ezzy333]

I agree with everything you said except this.....

...... but any trainer worth his salt will use them to aid in a dogs training.

Ezzy

I work with a trainer who has won national championships and he uses no collars, unless a client wishes him too.
To be "worth their salt" a trainer does not need to use a collar, plain and simple.

Well I'm still batting .900 so I am pretty happy with that. lol

[birddog1968]

I agree with everything you said except this.....

...... but any trainer worth his salt will use them to aid in a dogs training.

Ezzy

I work with a trainer who has won national championships and he uses no collars, unless a client wishes him too.
To be "worth their salt" a trainer does not need to use a collar, plain and simple.

Well I'm still batting .900 so I am pretty happy with that. lol

Thats and average to be proud of my friend.

[578SLE]

I would like to make a couple of points regarding the e-collar:

First: The modern e-collar is perhaps the most important training tool since the advent of the lease/lead. It allows us to teach dogs very quickly and humanely all kinds of things "if" used properly --and just like the pinch collar, in the wrong hands it can be a dangerous and inhumane tool. Seems like all to often I am looking at a dog that has been abused by its owner via an e-collar and is collar shy.

Second: I often wonder if we aren't destroying the "cooper-ability" and "temperament" in the breed of the dogs we love so much. Because the e-collar is so effective as a training tool, it seems to me that we are training more and more head strong dogs that could care less about their relationship with the handler and that these dogs are not only becoming effective bird dogs, but in many cases are deemed to be the "best" kind of bird dog. The e-collar even allows a smart trainer to develop and train a dog that is willing to run through some of the highest levels of stimulation found on the average e-collar. In the hands of a good trainer, proper use of the e-collar will allow for even these dogs to be trained and I often wonder what will happen to cooper-ability and temperament of the breed when these dogs are deemed as successful and are bred to other dogs.

Third: In the age when we have new trainers who have always had an e-collar in their bags of "tricks," I think it is important for every trainer to train at least one dog to be steady through the kill "without" an e-collar. Training without the collar forces a trainer to think long and hard about his or her training and its' impact on the dog in terms of how to best to shape natural desire and behavior with the desired obedience and wanted behaviors. I think training without a collar would change a lot of people's more modern training techniques.

[Shadow]

578SLE- said nicely- you have a good point-
I've had Goldens, Irish Setters, E Pointer, Brittany's, E Setter-
in the early 70's I was given a sweet little E Pointer- hunted with quite a few guys and dogs- some were big runner covey dogs- my female who started running fairly big got intimidated by all the others and the hollering and whistle blowing- she stayed in with 150 yards- on her own-

sure there've been times when I've thought about a shock collar- would speed up things- but over the years I've seen guys with well trained dogs- so they say- but every morning they have to make sure the collar is charged- and put it on the dog- I've said- why not leave it- it's a crutch if your dog is any good

I've got two 1 year olds, one 2 years, one 9- I like that when I open the gate or let them out of the dog box they are all fire- (my 9 year old doesn't seem to care so much for the blast out and away thing) so happens that the 2 pups will every now and then take off on a mile head race- if I didn't have a big area I would be concerned- if it happened all the time I would correct- do I need a shock collar- don't think so

lots and lots of rabbits here- so far every now and then a pup will take off after one- still believe I can correct that without a shock collar- may have to let them carry a rabbit arround their neck for awhile- old school

here's another point- why is it that none of mine have ever been bitten, sprayed, quilled, or hit by a car when out with me-

ps: it's still a shock collar- you nick your dog- it doesn't odey- you increase- it doesn't obey- prety soon you shock your dog with as much current as necessary- am I not correct

[ezzy333]

here's another point- why is it that none of mine have ever been bitten, sprayed, quilled, or hit by a car when out with me-

You have been lucky and also you live in a semi deserted area. I didn't use a collar for years and we trained dogs but I also found out with some of the modern training equipment I can do the same job easier, and more efficiently which makes it a whole lot easier for me and the dog. Because something worked in the past I am not so stubborn to not learn and make use of better and newer methods. It doesn't make anyone less of a trainer to use any and every method available and in my mind it says just the opposite. Kind of like picking a doctor, I kind of prefer the ones that keep up with the times and know, understand, and use the newest and best equipment to get the job done quickly efficiently, and humanely. Same goes for a dog trainer.

ps: it's still a shock collar- you nick your dog- it doesn't odey- you increase- it doesn't obey- pretty soon you shock your dog with as much current as necessary- am I not correct

Nope this is where you are wrong. First place it is not a shock collar. It works with electricity and it will produce a stimulation that can be felt similar to a tickle at low settings. No shock to it. For a matter of fact 90 percent of my use is with the vibrator and it gets the same results as the low level tickle. Many trainers use the beeper capabilities instead. I find the vibrator works better because the dogs hate that much more than the tickle they feel from the collar. If they don't obey you go back to the training table to teach. The level of stimulation is used for different dogs that have a different level that they seem to feel. I have and do use higher intensities if I am breaking the dog of serious situations such as snake avoidance, road avoidance, or other transgressions that need to be stopped immediately.

You have to be able to try new ways sometimes and realize there are better ways of doing things many times. I like you trained without one for more years than most on here have been alive. But I an sure glad I had the ability to learn and try new ways to do the job better. And boy, does it work. So much easier for me and the dog, and so much safer for the dog that it is a shame they cost too much for many people to own. Same with the Astro's. I still don't have one, would like to think I don't need one, but they sure do add to the safety factor when hunting heavy cover with a dog that will stand on point for hours, and you can't see the dog. I lucked on to my female a couple of years ago standing 1/2 mile from where I was but I was lucky as she could just as easily been lying in a ditch bleeding to death while I was calling her and all the time saying to myself I don't need an Astro.

Please let it never be said I was afraid to learn and try something new instead of saying what I have done in the past is as good as it gets.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

ps: it's still a shock collar- you nick your dog- it doesn't odey- you increase- it doesn't obey- prety soon you shock your dog with as much current as necessary- am I not correct

If this is what you believe you don't really understand how a collar is used properly, if you've seen someone do this than they haven't taken the time to lay the ground work of actual training. No offense intended of course.

[gonehuntin']

ps: it's still a shock collar- you nick your dog- it doesn't odey- you increase- it doesn't obey- prety soon you shock your dog with as much current as necessary- am I not correct

Again Shadow, you show your total lack of knowledge concerning the ecollar. If a dog has been correctly trained on the collar, there is rarely, ever, a need to raise the intensity.

I've gone, I believe, two years now without ever using the collar on my dog in the field. But it's there. For that one, terrifying moment when a car is speeding down a road and the dog is heading for the road, that collar is there as a safety measure. I won't run a dog without a name plate and my phone number on the collar and I won't run one without the ecollar. You can add the Astro to that now too.

[RayGubernat]

There is apparently a misconception on the part of some folks that use of an e-collar by many expereinced trainers it in order to "speed up'" the training process.

That is an absolutely and completely false conclusion.

The use of an e-collar is all about applying an appropriate amount of pressure at EXACTLY and PRECISELY the correct time.

The electronic collar allows the trainer the ability to correct a dog, regardless of the range, at the exact moment of the infraction. The electronic collar allows even a novice trainer to react to a dog's misbehavior in a timely manner. Occasionally, all the "correction" tht is needed is a minor tickle...more of a reminder. The variable intensity and nick capabilities of modern e-trainers makes these things easy.

Training and giving corrections during training is all about timing. A properly timed correction will instruct a dog. An improperly timed correction will confuse, even scare a dog.

Prior to e-collar technology, it took years of training, and, all too often, a fair bunch of ruined dogs for a trainer to learn their craft, especially the when to and when not to and the timing involved.

Training with and electronic collar can indeed be faster. WHY? Because, in the hands of a reasonably skilled trainer, it is so much easier and faster to convey to the dog what is being asked of them, and so much faster to guide them and nudge them in the right directions with precisely timed cues.


It can be faster...because it is often a better way.

FWIW, my dogs are broke to wing and shot using a checkcord and a prong collar. That's it.

It probably takes me a bit longer than some, but not as long as others, but since I am an amateur, with only a dog or at most two to work with on steadying at any one time, time is not a problem.

However, once the dog is steady to wing and shot, the prong collar is replaced with the e-collar so that any necessary corrections, reminders or "Hi there, remember me??" little nudges can be conveyed to the dog before anything gets out of hand.

There are many, many ways to get from here to there with a dog. The e-collar is one of the better ways.

Think about this:

If a dog ignores the come in command in the field, a simple stab of a little button will remind the dog, that it is his job to come in on command. Without the e-collar, what options are available to the handler? Like some on here, I am old enough to have been in that situation and know the answers, because, at one time or another I did most of them.

Most of them ain't pretty and today, a couple of them just might get you locked up.

RayG

[Ruffshooter]

Amazing that folks make final judgements on something they know absolutely nothing about and when they don't actually train their dogs.

One needs to know how to train a dog before one uses the E-collar to help in the training of the dog. An E-collar used properly will bolden a dog. An E-collar used properly can help keep the human emotion out of the training. An E-collar used properly is just a glorified check cord, Whoa post,Whoa barrel, whoa place board, slip collar, Snake breaker, deer chaser breaker, car chaser breaker. An E-collar used properly is just a reminder of the process that got the dog to understand the correct behavior. One can transition a dog from an E-collar to no E-collar. But one must do the formal commands then overlay the e-collar. This way there is always the master element to the training and easy to correct the dog in the field with out the e-collar on the dog.

THis of course is all IMHO.
Rick

[ezzy333]

Ray,

Your above post is good and all of the points you make are true. And the end result of corrections at the right time and all of the other points you make is that the training goes far faster and easier for trainer and the dog. You did nothing but back up my statement that the collar speeds the training and produces less trauma for both of us. I have done them both ways and there just isn't any comparison to the times we used the prong collars and the clubs or the shot gun to correct the dogs and I have seen them all used.

I am not finding fault with anyones method as it is personal preference how you want to do it but I will question anyone saying the collars are bad or they can do it better without the collar. Ive done both and have experienced the good and the bad with each and I highly recommend anyone trying whatever comes along that is new or different and see how it helps in the training.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

Ray, I am in TOTAL agreement with your post. I totally train all of my dogs FIRST to a finished state, then overlay all of the commands with ecollar.

People that don't manually train the dog first, are making a huge mistake.

[Shadow]

sorry- I didn't mean to convey those collars weren't ok- but don't tell me I can't have good dogs without one- and no matter how you put it the collar is a shock collar- you don't think so- put it arround your arm nice and snug- and press the button at a medium level- the button you'd use to stop your dog from crossing a road in front of a car- tell me then you don't feel a shock
I've hunted with a few shock collar owners who have them on all the time- because their dog just isn't any good without them-

oh Ezzy- Goldens, Irish Setter, cross of a golden and Irish, growing up and thru college in North Minnesota
English Pointer, Eastern Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Northern Minnesota
Brittany's and English Setter in Eastern Kansas, Texas, Iowa, North Minnesota
Brittany's Eastern Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Colorado,Texas, North and Southwest Minnesota

[gonehuntin']

sorry- I didn't mean to convey those collars weren't ok- but don't tell me I can't have good dogs without one-

No one here has said that. You're the one that said we used them as a crutch instead of training our dogs.

and no matter how you put it the collar is a shock collar- you don't think so- put it arround your arm nice and snug- and press the button at a medium level- the button you'd use to stop your dog from crossing a road in front of a car- tell me then you don't feel a shock

It doesn't feel like a shock to me, but rather an unusual sensation, something like a slow burn. Once ya crank em' up, it does feel like a shock. In the lower levels they remind me of the treatments chiropractors use on your back where they lay pads on it and run electricity through it. It's actually pleasurable until they get up into the higher voltages.

I've hunted with a few shock collar owners who have them on all the time- because their dog just isn't any good without them-

Yup. Same guys chasing their dogs all over the field and shooting at them because they were too lazy to train them. I've even heard of dogs going out of control on field trial grounds, causing disruption in the trials, because they weren't trained by the owners then let run unleashed.

[wems2371]

I own an e-collar, but it's seen minimal use in the last 2 years. The one and only reason I purchased one was--after watching my young dog tear off after a fresh deer track and run 900 yards across an open cornfield before she returned...I was scared of how it could have ended. I did have a Garmin on her at the time, but that wasn't going to help if she crossed the road and got hit by a car. I think we shocked her 2x after that for deer. The only other time I've used it was to speed up her return retrieve. I only needed to use it a couple times for that, and she got the idea.

On it's lower settings, it is nothing like a shock, but just a tingle...on my TT Sport Basic anyway. On setting one or two, it's not even a tingle, but a sensation that I had to question was I even feeling it. In the couple e-collar seminars I have sat in on, the goal was to use it on the lightest possible setting that gets a reaction. That does not mean squealing in pain. That means starting at level 1 and watch your dog very closely. If you see an ear flick or a glance or whatever it is--that is where you use it at. Apart from trash breaking, where the strongest setting is needed...I think of it as an attention getter on the lowest settings...something to break into the dogs state of mind and say "Hey, what did I ask you to do?"

That being said, my dogs pretty much only wear it for safety purposes, and my 14 month old has never received a shock. I have friends that do obedience, rally, agility, and whose dogs do all kinds of tricks--and they've never seen an e-collar. I know it is NOT a necessary tool, but I don't begrudge it, and may find I want to use it again at some point.

I do believe 578SLE made some interesting points.

Now that e-collars are available just about anywhere--from Walmart, Menards, my local farm store, etc--I have to wonder how many people have really done the groundwork to prepare for proper e-collar usage versus taking an untrained unruly dog, shocking the heck out of it, and hoping for a miracle cure.

[phermes1]

An e-collar is only one more tool in a trainer’s toolbag. With any tool, if you don’t know how to use it, there is potential for things to go wrong. I could probably ruin a dog almost as easily with a check cord as I could with an e-collar. There is nothing inherently bad or evil about it. The worst thing I can say about an e-collar is that it’s too easy for someone who doesn’t know how to use it to pick one up and screw up their dog. In that case, the problem is the trainer, and the e-collar just doesn’t have the functionality to protect the dog from the handler’s stupidity.

For me, I found breaking a dog with an e-collar to actually be a gentler, quieter way. I prefer using one because I can achieve my goals with LESS stress on both myself and the dog.
Funny - one person I know brags on his website about not using an e-collar at all for his training, as if it were a kinder, gentler way. I also saw this same person repeatedly whipping his dog with a leather leash after it busted in a field trial because ‘that’s the only way to get through to him.’ I’ve also seen rabid, anti-e-collar people tie checkcords to trees, so when the dog busts and hits the end of that checkcord at full-speed, they’re yanked back by the neck and upended. How this is better than an e-collar is beyond me. When those same people try to chastise me for using an e-collar, I can only shake my head. Some people just shouldn’t judge.

[Shadow]

Again Shadow, you show your total lack of knowledge concerning the ecollar.

your opinion

you demand obedience, 100% didn't you say once, so why do you need to have one on everytime you hunt- your dog is heading to a raod- so well trained but you can't stop it without shocking

maybe some dogs with the collar on really do mind 100% of the time- ok- leave the transmitter in the vehicle on a 3 day hunt

glad you put it on your arm and set it at medium setting and had someone press the button- try it at the highest setting- ever try one arround your neck- or real low down on your waist

I put one on my arm- fella that said about what you say had the transmitter- at one it could hardly be felt- as he dialed it up I know what it was like for his dog when I heard a yelp- then I asked him to put it on his arm and me with the transmitter- he refused-

yea- if trained properly and used by someone who also has had one on- but then again- if trained properly with one you shouldn't need it on all the time

[birddog1968]

ps: it's still a shock collar- you nick your dog- it doesn't odey- you increase- it doesn't obey- prety soon you shock your dog with as much current as necessary- am I not correct

This is the sentence that showed you don't understand how a collar is supposed to be used, no ands, ifs, or butts.
Even after very good posts on how a collar is correctly used you continue to naysay. Now it is plain it is some kind
of stubborn obsession or emotional argument you make.

I think this is where my signature line begins to come into play......

[RayGubernat]

Shadow -

A few points, if I may...

Properly used, there is no difference between a checkcord and an e-collar. Improperly used, thre is also not much difference.

You cannot make comparisons between the proper use of a checkcord and the improper use of an e-collar.

If you do not choose to use an e-collar for anything at all, that is your choice. There are many, many ways to get from here to there with a dog. I personally use an e-collar for certain things and not for others. That is my choice, based on what i am comfortable with and have been successful with.

You say that the e-collar on the highest setting is painful. Yes it is, but nowhere near as painful or dangerous as a load of # 9's in the dog's rear, or nowhere near as intimidaing, or dangerous as riding down a dog with a horse or chasing it down on foot screaming at it until it stops drops and cowers while you scream at it.

Dogs do what we ask them to do because they know if they don't, the ask becomes a demand and unpleasant things happen.

RayG

[Greg Jennings]

The simple answer is that an e-collar is a long check cord which is a long leash. No more or no less.

The only thing that I would add to that is that they can be used directly to teach the dog to avoid deer, snakes, skunks, etc. Other than that, you teach with the check cord, then over lay the e-collar.

Greg J.

[Kato&Sanka]

I see a lot of people here comparing e-collars to check cords or other past methods of corrections.

The people I know who are so opposed to e-collars always say that if you use positive reinforcement, you don't need to correct the dog. If you constantly work on recall and make it super fun for the dog, the dog will return to you. They don't believe corrections are needed for recall. I personally don't use corrections for recall.

They always say "My dog doesn't have to sit, he gets to sit". Now, I'd put my money down and say that a majority of these people have never hunted a day in the lives or even tried training a hunting dog. But they still steadfastly believe that corrections are not needed for recall work or retrieval, even if the behavior is already known. If the dog doesn't respond to you, then you need to do more training rather than do corrections or "reminders". That's their belief...so don't shoot the messenger here.

What do you all think of that?

On a side note, I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm just curious about those who actually use e-collars. I'm tired of having to constantly talk to know-it-alls who've never used an e-collar properly before and constantly dismissing it.

[RayGubernat]

I see a lot of people here comparing e-collars to check cords or other past methods of corrections.

The people I know who are so opposed to e-collars always say that if you use positive reinforcement, you don't need to correct the dog. If you constantly work on recall and make it super fun for the dog, the dog will return to you. They don't believe corrections are needed for recall. I personally don't use corrections for recall.

They always say "My dog doesn't have to sit, he gets to sit". Now, I'd put my money down and say that a majority of these people have never hunted a day in the lives or even tried training a hunting dog. But they still steadfastly believe that corrections are not needed for recall work or retrieval, even if the behavior is already known. If the dog doesn't respond to you, then you need to do more training rather than do corrections or "reminders". That's their belief...so don't shoot the messenger here.

What do you all think of that?

On a side note, I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm just curious about those who actually use e-collars. I'm tired of having to constantly talk to know-it-alls who've never used an e-collar properly before and constantly dismissing it.

Here's my take, FWIW -

When you are training a dog...ANY dog... it is, I believe, nearly always advisable to use postive reinforcement techniques to achieve the desired result. HOWEVER, in the real world, a dog, no matter how well trained, is still a dog and is capable of ignoring that training and doing something else. All the postive reinforcement in the world will not turn a beagle when it is hot pursuit of a rabbit. That is a fact of life.

If a dog fails to obey a known command, it is always, to some extent a trainig failure. To that extent, saying that the dog needs more or better training is accurate and correct I believe.

However, not all breeds of dogs are created alike. Not all categories of dogs are alike. Methods that work superbly on one type of dog may not wrok well at all on another type of dog.

When one is working with high drive dogs, such as sporting dogs, pointers, flusher, retrievers and especially hounds, the amount of prey drive that these type dogs posesse, far, far exceed the prey drive in non sporting breeds.

The amount of dependence that sporting breed dogs have on their masters is very often far, far less than, for example working dog and guard dog breeds.

I take no offense to differing postitions as regard training dogs./ I am always willing to learn something new and better. I am quite certain i am not alone.

RayG

[kninebirddog]

For regular house dogs positive reward works for the most part
But when you are hunting a dog our out for an unleashed method of exercise..prey drive will over take happy rewards and this is where the timing of an E collar can be priceless in when you say here and the dog is blowing you off to self hunt or do what it wants a treat will not cut it but a soft reminder will let the dog know to follow through on a command

[Shadow]

why not we have a meeting some place somewhere in the midwest- some feel mine are totally out of control because I've never had a - ah- ecollar- on them- or obedience trained- fun little gathering, cookout, camp out- run and plant some birds would be fun-

[birddog1968]

why not we have a meeting some place somewhere in the midwest- some feel mine are totally out of control because I've never had a - ah- ecollar- on them- or obedience trained- fun little gathering, cookout, camp out- run and plant some birds would be fun-

who has said yours are out of control or worthless? you've said this a couple of times now....I have not read that or thought it.

and why in the world would you plant birds in the midwest , not hard to find bird haunts out there.....

[Shadow]

well thank you- if you saw mine leave the gate or dog box one might think they are-

planting birds- why- because a few runs most wild would be gone- nothing wrong with putting out some quail- although mine might not know they are to be pointed- they're quite used to our friendly bunch in the pens

gonehunting refered- if I valued my dogs- I assumed he thinks mine aren't valued

[birddog1968]

well thank you- if you saw mine leave the gate or dog box one might think they are-

planting birds- why- because a few runs most wild would be gone- nothing wrong with putting out some quail- although mine might not know they are to be pointed- they're quite used to our friendly bunch in the pens

I guide on a preserve, know all about planted birds....just wouldn't travel to the midwest to plant them, personally.

[Shadow]

but birdog1968- looking out over this 1/2 mile field- planting a couple- and turning loose a couple real good dogs- interesting wouldn't you say

and last I checked- 30 or so rabbits

[birddog1968]

but birdog1968- looking out over this 1/2 mile field- planting a couple- and turning loose a couple real good dogs- interesting wouldn't you say

I do it 100's of times a year.....too many places with plenty of wild birds in the midwest......

[Shadow]

well then- how about a bunch of us try to meet up this fall someplace

I was thinking these veratiles could help get rid of all the rabbits- and someone would offer to do the dressing and cooking

[Kato&Sanka]

While your at it...knock out some of the rabbits and turkeys here. I swear those rabbits will be the death of me. They're everywhere!

Back OT, I wish all positive reinforcement trainers were open minded about different training methods. But sooo many just truly believe that positive reinforcement will work for any dog and make them just as good as other dogs trained with other methods or devices. Once had an extensive conversation about the use of prong collars on police dogs and schutzhund...and many positive reinforcement trainers were still soundly convinced that there was no need or use for prongs in those sports or in those training regimen. It's undoubtedly frustrating trying to have a nice debate when some are so close minded now that they've found a technique they enjoy.

I don't mean to lump every positive reinforcement trainer into this category, as they all vary greatly. But I'm mainly talking of the ones who are all about applying as minimal amount of corrections as you can.

[birddogger]

While your at it...knock out some of the rabbits and turkeys here. I swear those rabbits will be the death of me. They're everywhere!

Back OT, I wish all positive reinforcement trainers were open minded about different training methods. But sooo many just truly believe that positive reinforcement will work for any dog and make them just as good as other dogs trained with other methods or devices. Once had an extensive conversation about the use of prong collars on police dogs and schutzhund...and many positive reinforcement trainers were still soundly convinced that there was no need or use for prongs in those sports or in those training regimen. It's undoubtedly frustrating trying to have a nice debate when some are so close minded now that they've found a technique they enjoy.

I don't mean to lump every positive reinforcement trainer into this category, as they all vary greatly. But I'm mainly talking of the ones who are all about applying as minimal amount of corrections as you can.

I see a lot of kids who's parents believe in nothing but positive reinforcement. SAVE ME FROM THE GOOD PEOPLE!!

Charlie

[gonehuntin']

gonehunting refered- if I valued my dogs- I assumed he thinks mine aren't valued

No, I didn't say you didn't value them. I did say that I don't understand why anyone that DOES highly value their dog's doesn't run them with a collar on. If anyone, anytime, anyplace, anywhere, tells me their dogs will comply with every command given 100% of the time, I KNOW that person is a liar. No dog will, collar dog or not. That's why the collars there; safety.

In a high wind with the dogs working upwind of you, they can't hear a whistle or voice. What do you do then if they're in danger?

Nobody EVER said your dogs were untrained. I don't see why you seem to feel it necessary to challenge everyone to a duel with your pooches. I, personally, hunt these days for enjoyment only. Contests, once so important to me, hold absolutely no attraction for me.

It is YOU saying that WE use the collar as a crutch. WE never said YOU had untrained dogs or used anything as a crutch. Seems you just want to rant.

[ezzy333]

While your at it...knock out some of the rabbits and turkeys here. I swear those rabbits will be the death of me. They're everywhere!

Back OT, I wish all positive reinforcement trainers were open minded about different training methods. But sooo many just truly believe that positive reinforcement will work for any dog and make them just as good as other dogs trained with other methods or devices. Once had an extensive conversation about the use of prong collars on police dogs and schutzhund...and many positive reinforcement trainers were still soundly convinced that there was no need or use for prongs in those sports or in those training regimen. It's undoubtedly frustrating trying to have a nice debate when some are so close minded now that they've found a technique they enjoy.

I don't mean to lump every positive reinforcement trainer into this category, as they all vary greatly. But I'm mainly talking of the ones who are all about applying as minimal amount of corrections as you can.

I see a lot of kids who's parents believe in nothing but positive reinforcement. SAVE ME FROM THE GOOD PEOPLE!!

Charlie

I was just going to point that out. It sure hasn't worked out very well with our kids so don't know why it would with a dog. I think you will find the most efective training will be about 70 positive and 30 percent negative.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

Whenever you work with an animal with high drives and desires is far more difficult than working with a dog without them. Positive reinforcement is fine in ENCLOSED surroundings at CLOSE distances. In my experience, it stops being effective when the dog chooses to do what HE wants to do and turns you off.

Hunting dogs seem to do that a lot.