Why use e-collars?

[birddogger]

I was just going to point that out. It sure hasn't worked out very well with our kids so don't know why it would with a dog. I think you will find the most efective training will be about 70 positive and 30 percent negative.

Ezzy

Yep, and I really don't like comparing kids to do dogs, but I did so to make my point. I believe in plenty of positive reinforcement but there will ALWAYS be times when they will test you and a correction is needed. I have been around too long for anybody to convince me any different.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

I was just going to point that out. It sure hasn't worked out very well with our kids so don't know why it would with a dog. I think you will find the most efective training will be about 70 positive and 30 percent negative.

Ezzy

Yep, and I really don't like comparing kids to do dogs, but I did so to make my point. I believe in plenty of positive reinforcement but there will ALWAYS be times when they will test you and a correction is needed. I have been around too long for anybody to convince me any different.

Charlie

Think it has been true since Biblicl times and will continue to be true as long as we are capable of learning in the future. And I don't have a problem comparing kids and dogs. I have trained both and dogs seem to learn faster is about the only difference. Took me a month to house break the pup and a little over 3 years for the kids.

Ezzy

[Iowa]

Being in a subdivision i have a few neighbors using my older e-collars. Now most are gun dogs (labs) but none hunt. With the right training most dogs on our street get to be out when we are. This keeps them safe. One couple who now have my circa 1990 tritronics are spending more time with their dog since he doesnt spend all his time in the house or back yard. He gets to spend his time with Remi (my V) while we are out with kids etc. I worked with him and showed them how to use it. He has a much better life with the e-collar. I would never leave home without. He is a none neutered male but still has a level head at the dog park with the collar.

[Iowa]

One other thing. I made them try the collar on them. Sounds funny I would never use something on my dog I would not be willing to try myself.

[Shadow]

my first AKC field trial bred Britt was a ranger- she was 14 months old and liked ignoring at 1/4 mile- an experienced fella put on a electric collar- three times he pushed the button- from then on she would turn at 1/4 mile- it worked the rest of her life-

thing is- once the dog understands and I have this expensive collar- seems a waste

I might get one- shocking to you after these posts- correct

[Kato&Sanka]

Wow....you think it's ok to have a dog wearing an e-collar at a dog park? That just seems like it's going too far. I don't really like when people use e-collars for containment (not electric fence, just e-collars). Just get a long line for that if you can't install a fence.

I know lots of people here who use electric fence to contain their dogs. But the collar also has a shock button. The dog always blows past the fence and instead of training a recall, they just grab the remote and push a button to shock their dog into coming back. I think it'd be better to do some training or containment than to be so reliant on an e-collar for something as simple as your dog leaving your yard. And using it at a dog park....I just think that's ridiculous.

[ezzy333]

Wow....you think it's ok to have a dog wearing an e-collar at a dog park? That just seems like it's going too far. I don't really like when people use e-collars for containment (not electric fence, just e-collars). Just get a long line for that if you can't install a fence.

I know lots of people here who use electric fence to contain their dogs. But the collar also has a shock button. The dog always blows past the fence and instead of training a recall, they just grab the remote and push a button to shock their dog into coming back. I think it'd be better to do some training or containment than to be so reliant on an e-collar for something as simple as your dog leaving your yard. And using it at a dog park....I just think that's ridiculous.

Lets go back and read what most everyone has told you in their posts. The e-collar is less severe, as in more humane, than most other methods of control. And yet you come right back to your original opinion when someone tells you how they use and how it has worked so well all of the neighbors and friends are now using it. No one is ever reliant on a collar to control a dog but we do rely on it to help enforce a command the dog knows but decides to ignore which they all do.

And you make a point that the automatic e-fence is OK but not the manually operated e-collar. What is the real difference other than the fence works every time while the collar can be used only when needed.

All of this info won't make a nickels worth of difference until you can open your mind and actually see that the collar is a great tool for doing what you do with a similar tool that you are familiar with. The difference is just that . You have to be open to try new things and you will find some of them are great tools. That is exactly why practically every trainer uses them. They work to reinforce commands the dog knows no matter what the setting, front yard, dog park, or bird field.

Ezzy

[wems2371]

K & S--Why wouldn't you be consistent? Just because it's the dog park, things change? The e-collar in that case IS the long line or checkcord-as we gundog folks call 'em.

Please don't judge all of us who own an e-collar, by the people you know... First of all, we are not all "shocking" our dogs to train them. Until you get to the higher settings on my e-collar, that word can be thrown right off the table. It's ironic that I'm defending something I have hardly used, but I have actually used it--versus judging it's usage, having never used it. Are e-collars abusive in the wrong hands...certainly. So is a choke chain. The most abusive "training" I have ever seen to a dog, was done with nothing store bought--but rather human hands.

[phermes1]

Wow....you think it's ok to have a dog wearing an e-collar at a dog park? That just seems like it's going too far. I don't really like when people use e-collars for containment (not electric fence, just e-collars). Just get a long line for that if you can't install a fence.

I know lots of people here who use electric fence to contain their dogs. But the collar also has a shock button. The dog always blows past the fence and instead of training a recall, they just grab the remote and push a button to shock their dog into coming back. I think it'd be better to do some training or containment than to be so reliant on an e-collar for something as simple as your dog leaving your yard. And using it at a dog park....I just think that's ridiculous.

With all due respect, it doesn't seem to me that you've read a single thing that anyone here has written.

[EvanG]

Wow....you think it's ok to have a dog wearing an e-collar at a dog park? That just seems like it's going too far.

What seems ridiculous to me is caring more about the opinions of strangers more than caring about the overall well-being of your dog, and the consistency of the standards to which he has been trained. I maintain the e-collar in the park (any park). I take my Golden to Pet Smart with me; e-collar and all. Never a problem.

If there is a place where a collar may be prohibited, we simply don't go there.

EvanG

[Iowa]

Wow....you think it's ok to have a dog wearing an e-collar at a dog park? That just seems like it's going too far. I don't really like when people use e-collars for containment (not electric fence, just e-collars). Just get a long line for that if you can't install a fence.

I know lots of people here who use electric fence to contain their dogs. But the collar also has a shock button. The dog always blows past the fence and instead of training a recall, they just grab the remote and push a button to shock their dog into coming back. I think it'd be better to do some training or containment than to be so reliant on an e-collar for something as simple as your dog leaving your yard. And using it at a dog park....I just think that's ridiculous.

My dog has her ecollar on all the time. BUT I can count the number of times I've used it in 4 years on my hands. In my situation my V minds better than any other dog I've ever trained but I basically use it as a long check cord for HER safety when we are out without a leash. What if she decided to chase an animal into the street while a car was in the street, I can then shock her or even vibrate it and she remembers that she is not allowed in the street. I would much rather do this than chain in out in the front yard. How is chaining a dog more humane than a shock or even vibration. If I tied my V up in the front yard she would go nuts. How is that far to the dog?

For the dog park situation with my neighbors NON neutered male. This is for the safety of all the dogs at the park. He will not start a fight but he will not back down. We are working with him on more socialization but for his safety and the safety of the other dogs I suggest keeping the collar on. I little shock can break a fight up quick.

[birddog1968]

I think we just went full circle and the OP didn't learn a thing. I'm starting to think the whole original
premise of the OP was fake as well.....

[ezzy333]

I think we just went full circle and the OP didn't learn a thing. I'm starting to think the whole original
premise of the OP was fake as well.....

X2 Was my exact thought also.


Ezzy

[Kato&Sanka]

The e-collar is less severe, as in more humane, than most other methods of control. And yet you come right back to your original opinion when someone tells you how they use and how it has worked so well all of the neighbors and friends are now using it.

My original opinion? What? I never gave my opinion on it. I said I wanted examples on how it is used in training or in hunting to help show others a different side of e-collars because THEY were so opposed to it. Please don't get me mixed up with those people.

No one is ever reliant on a collar to control a dog but we do rely on it to help enforce a command the dog knows but decides to ignore which they all do.

But why use it at a dog park? Where is the need at a dog park? A dog park is an area for the dog to let loose. The only thing you'd need to keep an eye on is if your dog is playing too rough or acting aggressively...and if acting aggressively, you shouldn't bring them to the dog park. And if playing too rough, remove them. Shocking them while playing just doesn't sit well with me. The dog is in a completely different mindset. So where's the need in a dog park?

I've seen many people become reliant on the collar. Instead of working on a better recall or working on reinforcing staying in the yard, they just carry the remote with them, finger ready to shock. That's no way to live with a dog. Training is a constant thing. You can't just stop because pushing the button gets what you want. You want to prevent that from happening in the first place. That's why I don't like e-collars for containment because people have to push the button. There's no set line, it's a guess on the person's part and random timing as to when they see the dog out of the yard. The invisible fence is a set barrier. It doesn't move. The dog knows where it is. It gets a nick at the exact moment it crosses, everytime...not whenever the person is able to find the remote and push the button. That is the difference between invisible fence and just using an e-collar for keeping a dog in the yard.

Please don't judge all of us who own an e-collar, by the people you know...

Ugh....I'd like to ask the same of you as I said specifically that I wanted to show the people I know that e-collars aren't the bane of all evil. So please, stop lumping me with them. I know there are uses for e-collars, but there are places where I just think they're unnecessary, especially at a dog park. You don't want to be shocking your dog while it's playing with other dogs. That can create problems.

With all due respect, it doesn't seem to me that you've read a single thing that anyone here has written.

That doesn't sound very respectful. What do you mean? I've read all of the posts and have taken mental notes on it. Then someone commented about how they use e-collars at dog parks. I'm open about things, but e-collars at dog parks are just too much imo.

I maintain the e-collar in the park (any park). I take my Golden to Pet Smart with me; e-collar and all. Never a problem.

If there is a place where a collar may be prohibited, we simply don't go there.

I think if you HAVE to do that, then the e-collar is just a management tool. If you HAVE to use an e-collar in those places, then what training have you done? I understand e-collars in hunting or high stimulating areas...but at a dog park where a dog is supposed to let loose or at pet smart where a dog has to be on a leash? Where is the need for an e-collar? If your dog so severely needs corrections in those areas because they're causing major problems, then you shouldn't go to those areas until your dog has better manners. If you're only correcting the dog because it didn't sit or didn't come when called at a dog park...then more training is in order. A dog park and petsmart is not the same as a dog in a hunting scenario. I don't think an e-collar is warranted in those situations. That's where I draw the line and find it becoming too needy.

What if she decided to chase an animal into the street while a car was in the street, I can then shock her or even vibrate it and she remembers that she is not allowed in the street. I would much rather do this than chain in out in the front yard. How is chaining a dog more humane than a shock or even vibration. If I tied my V up in the front yard she would go nuts. How is that far to the dog?

A long line has a higher guarantee than a shock collar. What if the battery dies? What if the receiver doesn't work? What if you don't catch the dog in time to push the button? If your dog mostly stays in your yard and only occasionally tries to cross, then no, I don't see a problem with it. What I am talking about are people who have dogs who would bolt out of the yard at the sight of anything or if a new smell drifted there way. I think it would be better for the dog to be on a long line for safety rather than having to get nick and rely on the human's observation and timing.

And there's nothing wrong with a long line. People tend to think that putting a long line on a dog is the same as tieing it to a tree with a 3 ft leash. Yeah, no, completely wrong. A long line gives a dog just as much freedom if used right. Tie it to a tree and just leaving a dog out there is not using it right.

For the dog park situation with my neighbors NON neutered male. This is for the safety of all the dogs at the park. He will not start a fight but he will not back down. We are working with him on more socialization but for his safety and the safety of the other dogs I suggest keeping the collar on. I little shock can break a fight up quick.

This is another thing I steadfastly disagree with. A shock collar should NEVER be used on an aggressive dog. Think about it, every time this dog gets riled up, it gets shocked. No wonder it keeps fighting or becomes uncomfortable around other dogs. If every time you say another person you got shocked, would you be happy seeing other people? If every time you got near a person, you got zapped, would you be happy about other people approaching you? So, if you shock a dog that lashes out against other dogs, you're only creating more anxiety. This dog realizes that it gets shocked when other dogs are around or when it's in close proximity to other dogs....so, it becomes afraid of other dogs because of the possibility of getting shocked, and it ends up lashing out and biting out of fear to scare the other dogs off because IT doesn't want to be shocked. Trust me, I've seen it. Aggressive or fearful aggressive dogs only become more anxious when a shock collar is being used on them when dealing with their aggression/fear aggression.

You want to create a positive association with other dogs for that aggressive dogs. Other dogs shouldn't be a sign of a possibility of getting shocked. The sight of other dogs should be a sign of treats or praise or good things. When you do this, the dog becomes happy in seeing other dogs. It's like this, if someone slapped you across the face every time you saw or got close to another person and you showed signs of stress/anxiety/fear and tried to protect yourself (in a dog, growling, nipping, biting, screaming, barking, etc.), you wouldn't welcome the sight of other people. In fact, you'd become more hostile to them. But if someone paid you $500 every time you saw someone, you'd be more open about seeing them. Same with dogs.

I think we just went full circle and the OP didn't learn a thing. I'm starting to think the whole original
premise of the OP was fake as well.....

I wanted to learn about e-collar use for hunting dogs as I see a use for e-collars in that function. I have learned. But I highly disagree with using e-collars a dog parks...a place where a dog is supposed to have fun, not get nicked...and I highly disagree with using e-collars on aggressive or fearful aggressive dogs. Just because I stand firm on those matters doesn't mean I haven't learned.

And quite honestly, this place has become very rude every since I showed my dislike for e-collars in certain situations. No where did I generalize anyone. No where did I say e-collars where a bad tool. I just don't believe they should be used in all situations. I just wanted to learn about how they were used in hunting and how they were trained. I don't think I should ask any more questions here as you all are showing your true colors now. You want people to respect your opinion on using an e-collar...well, learn to respect others on their opinions on when to use e-collars. I don't think you evil of using e-collars. And by me saying how I disagree with using e-collars in certain areas doesn't mean I've just dismissed everything else that was said. That's just my opinion on that matter. I'm not going to fight about it.

I noticed in a lot of replies that people kept saying that "everything 'you' (you as in me, the OP) think about e-collars is wrong"....and yet I specifically said it was to prove others wrong as I have nothing against the tool itself...and yet people kept thinking I was the one with the opposition to e-collars as a whole. So please, make sure you understand everything that's being said before you start throwing out accusations and falsehoods.

[surferdave]

This is a fascinating discussion. I find it interesting because I am currently in the process of assisting a friend in training with an e-collar outside of hunting. His Labrador is probably 3 months younger than mine, he has no ambition to hunt it, but seeing the results I've produced in training my dog with an e-collar he wants in.

My dogtra collar has 127 levels of stimulus, I've never gone above 35. It scares me to even think about having to burn my dog at higher levels, but the truth is, if a dog is properly trained with one, you'll never have to hit them hard with it. My dog wags his tail when I put his collar on, if he was really scared of it, wouldn't he be cowering and running off? What I've found is having an e-collar has provided consistency. Consistent corrections at the perfect time allows my dog to know exactly what he is doing wrong at the exact moment. Also Kato, pressure training works in direct conjunction with positive reinforcement. You better believe if I need to give a correction on a heel, or come, the moment he gets to me, I immediately say good boy and give him a pat on the head or shoulders.

To me, the collar isn't forcing them to the point of breaking their spirits. It's about giving the dog the choice. Follow my command and be rewarded (praise, treats), don't follow my command and feel pressure (the necessary amount for compliance). Our dogs are smart and figure it out very quickly. Lastly, I find if coupled with positive reinforcement, even when he is not wearing the collar, he becomes extremely consistent with compliance. Properly timed corrections also helps to enforce the alpha role in the relationship, which we all know is necessary.

[Kato&Sanka]

Lastly, I find if coupled with positive reinforcement, even when he is not wearing the collar, he becomes extremely consistent with compliance. Properly timed corrections also helps to enforce the alpha role in the relationship, which we all know is necessary.

Ok...compliance...that's a word that's confusing. I don't want my dogs to just comply, I want them to also enjoy. I tell my dogs to sit, but I don't want them to gripe and grumble into a sit because I'm forcing them too, I want them to jump into a sit because they're eager too. They comply...but you have to look at the dog. Is he only complying because if he doesn't, he'll get shocked? Or is he complying because he actually enjoys what he's doing? If he's only complying because of the e-collar, that's when I think more training is needed. You want your dog to enjoy life and live it with you. You can get compliance by making things fun.

I understand dogs in the field get a little too worked up and need a reminder....but as far as the dog "choosing to ignore" in regular situations...I just think that's a training issue, not something that needs to be corrected. Dogs don't generalize well. So you really have to ask yourself...does my dog truly know that command and needs a correction? Or does my dog only know that command in the house...in the yard....but not out in the field or other locations because he/she didn't generalize to those locations? If the latter is true...more training.

And I strongly disagree with the whole Alpha thing...if you're referencing dominance and such. If you're just speaking of basic leadership, then yeah, that's important. But as to showing your dog who's alpha? I disagree. I have the food. I have the resources...I don't need to assert dominance. I'm already the care giver. I do need to show leadership though. Leadership doesn't always mean corrections. Leadership means guidance.

[birddog1968]

Kato&sanka,

You would do well to remove the tendency you have to project human emotions on the dog, they are not human and its the weakness
in your thought process when trying to understand the trainer/trainee relationship.

Dogs are happiest when they know their place in the pack, they dont need to feel like an alpha or omega, they just need to know their place.

[surferdave]

Lastly, I find if coupled with positive reinforcement, even when he is not wearing the collar, he becomes extremely consistent with compliance. Properly timed corrections also helps to enforce the alpha role in the relationship, which we all know is necessary.

Ok...compliance...that's a word that's confusing. I don't want my dogs to just comply, I want them to also enjoy. I tell my dogs to sit, but I don't want them to gripe and grumble into a sit because I'm forcing them too, I want them to jump into a sit because they're eager too. They comply...but you have to look at the dog. Is he only complying because if he doesn't, he'll get shocked? Or is he complying because he actually enjoys what he's doing? If he's only complying because of the e-collar, that's when I think more training is needed. You want your dog to enjoy life and live it with you. You can get compliance by making things fun.

I understand dogs in the field get a little too worked up and need a reminder....but as far as the dog "choosing to ignore" in regular situations...I just think that's a training issue, not something that needs to be corrected. Dogs don't generalize well. So you really have to ask yourself...does my dog truly know that command and needs a correction? Or does my dog only know that command in the house...in the yard....but not out in the field or other locations because he/she didn't generalize to those locations? If the latter is true...more training.

And I strongly disagree with the whole Alpha thing...if you're referencing dominance and such. If you're just speaking of basic leadership, then yeah, that's important. But as to showing your dog who's alpha? I disagree. I have the food. I have the resources...I don't need to assert dominance. I'm already the care giver. I do need to show leadership though. Leadership doesn't always mean corrections. Leadership means guidance.

The webster dictionary definition of compliance is as follows: "A state in which someone or something is in accordance with established guidelines."

I did not mention anything about my dog griping or being unhappy. Why do you automatically associate compliance and bulletproof obedience with a dogs unhappiness. Again, you are still looking at an e-collar as a punishment tool, correcting and punishing are two different things. Yes, it the collar CAN be used for punishment and abuse, but like others have said, used properly and responsibly, the collar is valuable to dog training.

I'm all for positive reinforcement, but I have seen it first hand where all the treats and praise in the world won't stop a dog from doing what it wants. Also when I refer to being the Alpha, it's not just about asserting dominance, but providing proper leadership.

[surferdave]

Also Sato, doesn't training and corrections go hand in hand? When you tell your dog to stay, and it doesn't, what do you do? You probably say Ah Ah! Or repeat the command... no? Aren't those verbal corrections? E-collar is a tool, it doesn't train the dog, it only assist in training. I'll bet you that after being trained with an e-collar, my 10 month old is far more obedient than any of your dogs, WITHOUT wearing the collar, and just if not more happy.

[Chukar12]

I think the question as to why use the e-collar in the practical application of hunting has been sufficiently answered....and any village idiot can use a boot, stick or any other type of brute force as easily as they can an e-collar. Why use an e-collar at a dog park (in a moment a slanted opinion on dog parks) or a store? Dogs cannot read signs, and as any professional trainer will tell you the depth of generalization (exposure to different locations, environments and scenarios) in behavioral shaping has significant impact on the level of compliance.

Let's use the dog park as an example: How might a person prepare a dog for the distractions of lesser trained and disciplined canines that are under the guidance of the most unpredictable animal of all; the urban humanity who has anthropomorphosised (sp…I made that word up) Fido to the point that he or she is a neurotic head case in the canine world? Here, heel and whoa all could play a part in a reasonable solution to avoid a dog fight, hurt feelings, embarrassment or a punch in the nose; but only if you can first be sure the dog knows what you want, and secondly that you can enforce what you want, regardless of how the dog determines the situation should be dealt with.

Over time, the collar becomes moot. Field trials, agility rally, etc...Are proofs that these tools can be phased out, but make no mistake they are the most humane and effective tool available and are employed by the umpteenth percentile in the training world. We should all react to abuse as the exception to the rule when we see it; but it seems ill-placed if not purely ignorant to be judgmental of someone using the tool properly in whatever environment they may be in.

[birddogger]

Kato&sanka,

You would do well to remove the tendency you have to project human emotions on the dog, they are not human and its the weakness
in your thought process when trying to understand the trainer/trainee relationship.

Dogs are happiest when they know their place in the pack, they dont need to feel like an alpha or omega, they just need to know their place.

Well said.

Charlie

[Shadow]

Also Sato, doesn't training and corrections go hand in hand? When you tell your dog to stay, and it doesn't, what do you do? You probably say Ah Ah! Or repeat the command... no? Aren't those verbal corrections? E-collar is a tool, it doesn't train the dog, it only assist in training. I'll bet you that after being trained with an e-collar, my 10 month old is far more obedient than any of your dogs, WITHOUT wearing the collar, and just if not more happy.

I've got a Brittany that's never seen an ecollar- you think your 10 month old who is trained by ecollar is more obedient - I'd sure like to test that out-

[phermes1]

That doesn't sound very respectful. What do you mean? I've read all of the posts and have taken mental notes on it. Then someone commented about how they use e-collars at dog parks. I'm open about things, but e-collars at dog parks are just too much imo.

It means that there have been many excellent and fair points made in this thread, and your response each and every time has been to disagree. It seems to me like you already had your mind made up.

[Kato&Sanka]

You would do well to remove the tendency you have to project human emotions on the dog, they are not human and its the weakness
in your thought process when trying to understand the trainer/trainee relationship.

Dogs are happiest when they know their place in the pack, they dont need to feel like an alpha or omega, they just need to know their place.

I think you would fair much better in doing some research yourself. There are no different status points within dogs. There is no alpha, beta, charlie...or ranks in general with dogs. Many dogs do not form packs when left on their own. All this omega and alpha stuff is based off an old, incorrect study on wolves. And to be blunt, dogs are not wolves.

I did not mention anything about my dog griping or being unhappy. Why do you automatically associate compliance and bulletproof obedience with a dogs unhappiness.

I didn't. You seemed to have missed what I said. I'll repeat it if that was the case...I said...

"Ok...compliance...that's a word that's confusing." "They comply...but you have to look at the dog. Is he only complying because if he doesn't, he'll get shocked? Or is he complying because he actually enjoys what he's doing?"

I was not implying that a dog that complies is automatically unhappy. What I was getting at was a lot of people only see compliance but don't look at the dog's happiness. A lot of people miss that. They see a dog that'll sit when buzzed with an e-collar and they bathe in the glory that the dog is so "well-behaved" even though the dog is clearly not having fun. (not saying all dogs that are trained with e-collars are miserable, it's just a random example) So you have to ask yourself when saying something makes your dog comply....is the dog complying because it'll have something it dislikes happen to it or is complying because it enjoys what it's doing? Does that make sense?

Also Sato, doesn't training and corrections go hand in hand? When you tell your dog to stay, and it doesn't, what do you do? You probably say Ah Ah! Or repeat the command... no? Aren't those verbal corrections?

I'm not against corrections. It's impossible to train without them. When my dogs break a stay, I simply guide them back to the spot, repeat the command, and wait for a shorter duration because I had obviously gone past the level they were at.

I'll bet you that after being trained with an e-collar, my 10 month old is far more obedient than any of your dogs, WITHOUT wearing the collar, and just if not more happy.

I'm not here to bet or prove anything. I personally wouldn't use an e-collar for obedience training...especially on a little puppy. They respond sooo well to positive reinforcement. I never needed corrections on my pup as far as obedience went. And I'm really satisfied with how well behaved he is...even at his crazy "teenager" stage.

but it seems ill-placed if not purely ignorant to be judgmental of someone using the tool properly in whatever environment they may be in.

I'm not judging anyone. I disagree with the use of an e-collar on puppies...on aggressive/fear aggressive dogs...in dog parks...or in petsmart. That's my opinion...just like it's theirs to use an e-collar in those places. If they feel the need to constantly be prepared to shock their dog at any little misstep...then that's theirs for the taking. I personally wouldn't want to live that life style. I've got enough stuff to carry around, and I'd rather not add an electronic remote to that collection. If my dog acts up at a dog park, I wouldn't just shock him and continue to bring him there. I'd look at the situation. Was it really my dog that was in the wrong? Was another dog creating havoc? If it was my dog, can he handle the dog park? If I have to constantly correct him with a shock collar...as in a verbal cue does nothing....I don't think he's ready for a dog park.

In my opinion, I think it'd be ideal to phase the e-collar out in those situations. You don't know for sure what your dog is associated the shock with when at a dog park. Does he know the shock is your doing? Does he associate it with his actions? Does he associate it with other dogs? Does he associate it with a certain spot on the ground? A dog park is just a completely different element than out on a hunt. I just don't see the need in an e-collar. If you HAVE to have one on your dog at all times....I just believe more training is involved. If you CHOOSE to use an e-collar at all times...well, that's your choice. If you've taken the time to properly train the dog and continue to train the dog so it'll respond to voice commands and you aren't using the e-collar, then that's your choice.

I just see so many people comment on how obedient there dog has become because of an e-collar...and then I see the dog is all stressed out. But it's the subtle signs that people miss....lip licking, yawning, big eyes, body posture....it just sickens me. And again, I recognize it's not the tool, but the training. But it's still sickening when someone tries to place a bet on which dog is more obedient because of a e-collar. That seems more ignorant than anything.

[Kato&Sanka]

It means that there have been many excellent and fair points made in this thread, and your response each and every time has been to disagree. It seems to me like you already had your mind made up.

No...I posed more questions to see what your answers were. And I learned from them. Then someone posted something that I disagreed with, and that's where this started.

So please, don't dismiss me as someone just starting something. I got plenty of answers, and I already acknowledged it. Go back a few pages an reread what I posted. My questions were answered, so I asked more to see what else I could learn. My mind was open on the topic of hunting. But as far as e-collar use in certain other situations...yes, I've had my mind made up on those. I've had so many discussions already on those topics, and have witnessed first hand many accounts of it that I have made a decision on what I agree with and what I disagree with in those specific situations. But as far as e-collar use in hunting and training for hunting, I was and still am open about the use in those situations.

[birddog1968]

Im calling troll....it seems you didn't enter to learn anything only to project an agenda.

You said you weren't against collars (others you know were) and at every turn you show your true colors and purpose.....silly human.

[birddog1968]

You would do well to remove the tendency you have to project human emotions on the dog, they are not human and its the weakness
in your thought process when trying to understand the trainer/trainee relationship.

Dogs are happiest when they know their place in the pack, they dont need to feel like an alpha or omega, they just need to know their place.

I think you would fair much better in doing some research yourself. There are no different status points within dogs. There is no alpha, beta, charlie...or ranks in general with dogs. Many dogs do not form packs when left on their own. All this omega and alpha stuff is based off an old, incorrect study on wolves. And to be blunt, dogs are not wolves.

From Wiki- Note the word pack and the fact they are in fact canis lupus

Domestic dogs (Canis lupus): Despite being genetically the same species as the grey wolf, it is unclear what the similarities are between the pack behaviour of the dog and the gray wolf. Domesticated dogs have had humans as part of dog social structure for at least 12,000 years, and human behaviour is not the same as wolf behaviour. Studies of dog behaviour include studies of dogs and their interactions with humans (example [6]), "dumped" or "road" dogs that were raised by humans and then left to fend for themselves (The Tuscany Dog Project[7]), feral dogs not attached to humans (Carolina Dog), and feral dog packs that live in association with human villages or camps (New Guinea Singing Dog). Pack structure and behaviour varies greatly.

From- http://icwdm.org/handbook/carnivor/FeralDog.asp

Gipson (1983) suggested that family groups of feral dogs are more highly organized than previously believed. Pup rearing may be shared by several members of a pack. Survival of pups born during autumn and winter has been documented, even in areas with harsh winter weather. Gipson found that only one female in a pack of feral dogs studied in Alaska gave birth during two years of study, even though other adult females were present in the pack. The breeding female gave birth during late September or early October during both years. It is noteworthy that all pups from both litters had similar color markings, suggesting that the pups had the same father. Adult males of different colors were present in the pack.

Nesbitt (1975) commented on the rigid social organization of a pack of feral dogs where nonresident dogs were excluded, including females in estrus. In one instance, Nesbitt used three separate female dogs in estrus as bait (dogs were chained in the back of a corral-type trap) over a 59-day period and captured no feral dogs. He then baited the same trap with carrion, and a pack of feral dogs, including four adult males, entered the trap within 1 week.

[surferdave]

I apologize for the my dog vs. your dog banter, that never leads to anything productive. If you really are here to learn more about how e-collars are utilized with hunters you have to understand the training process. We don't strap e-collars on puppies. Most dogs start at 7 months to a year. Some start earlier, but that is with very experienced trainers working with dogs meant to perform at high level test and trials early.

An e-collar isn't a short cut. Before just throwing it on a dog, we go through work using praise/treat training for young puppies, then move on to the use of check cords and long leads, once they become consistent and reliable with this, then we introduce the collar in a VERY careful and humane way. Making sure the dog knows exactly what is expected of it, and teaching it precisely how to "turn off" the e-collar stimulation. It is a through process, and "obedience" is not just a product of the e-collar, it's a product of constant training with or without a collar.

You also mention that you feel e-collars shouldn't be necessary at dog parks. From most hunters point of view, obedience is obedience no matter where you are. I expect the same degree of obedience in the field, as I do at a dog park, or even in my kitchen while my dog waits for his food. This doesn't mean I have an e-collar on him while in the house, but guarantee if he were to ever make a dash for his food without permission, he would get a verbal correction. So yes, if there is a possible dog fight happening where my dog is situated at the park, I feel having an e-collar to guarantee he comes to me when called to prevent a vet bill is important.

So let me ask you, if it is necessary to recall your dog at a park, and he is too enthralled to pay attention to you, how do you go about bringing him in? Do you repeat yourself? Doesn't that just enforce the fact that he can get away with blowing you off? Do you shake a bag of treats? Do you just go get him? Truth is, if your dog truly decides not to come to you, or obey your commands, you have no tools that have the same immediate response as an e-collar.

The greatest thing is, the more you utilize it, the more consistent a dog becomes in all aspects of obedience and compliance, with or without wearing the collar.

[Chukar12]

My goodness...this entire discussion could use an e-collar correction. So many who have commented have tried to respond intelligently to the question as asked only to have it spun to a circular if not entirely emotionally based argument. Domesticated dogs and wolves share 98% plus common DNA markers, using the definition from Wikpedia for dog v wolf in this argument is at best misplaced. Much of the original poster's argument is based on the dogs "happiness' as defined by he or she. So if this is the goal, then forego the dog park, ignore compliance and e-collars. I submit that the dogs I see in the poster's thread would be happiest (by their definition) in a pen full of white rabbits doing what nature designed them to do. It isn't a pretty picture but I venture it suits their whims the best. Is that the goal? Or are we arrogant enough to believe that we can project their willingmess to compromise their natural tendencies to suit our more civilized needs? Some arguments cannot be won and when you step outside them and note the depth of your involvement...well dang it ...it"s emabarrasing.

[phermes1]

Post deleted.

Reason: Responding has become a waste of time.

[birddog1968]

Yes, I got in too deep, my point with the wiki quote was to show in fact both the wolf and dog are both canis lupis, nothing more.

Late night posts aren't my strong point and I should have bailed a while back.

[Kato&Sanka]

You said you weren't against collars (others you know were) and at every turn you show your true colors and purpose.....silly human.

Really, look in the mirror. Silly human. I'm not against e-collars. I just don't think they should be used in ALL situations. I asked about their use in hunting and in training for hunting. That's where my curiosity lies as I think e-collars are a great tool in that situation. Then people started posting about how they use e-collars at dog parks and pet stores....I don't agree with using them there. Excuse me for voicing my opinion.

I guess anyone here who isn't 100% supportive of e-collars in every situation is a troll. :roll:

From Wiki- Note the word pack and the fact they are in fact canis lupus

No, DNA testing suggests they are descendants from wolves. But nobody knows the exact link...nobody knows for sure how dogs became dogs so to speak. And please, use a reliable source, not wikipedia. Read some stuff by Ray & Lorna Coppinger. It'll give you a different perspective.

So yes, if there is a possible dog fight happening where my dog is situated at the park, I feel having an e-collar to guarantee he comes to me when called to prevent a vet bill is important.

So wait...is the e-collar being used as a correction or have you trained it as a cue to return to you? If it's a correction, that's where my uncertainty lies. What is the dog associating the correction with?

So let me ask you, if it is necessary to recall your dog at a park, and he is too enthralled to pay attention to you, how do you go about bringing him in? Do you repeat yourself? Doesn't that just enforce the fact that he can get away with blowing you off? Do you shake a bag of treats? Do you just go get him? Truth is, if your dog truly decides not to come to you, or obey your commands, you have no tools that have the same immediate response as an e-collar.

With my youngest dog, I have found a wonderful thing called the Premack principle. It works wonderfully for calling him off of critters. Mind you, we're still in the beginning stages. I've only been working on it for a month or 2 and my dog is still young, so it's not proofed yet, but it still has worked! He will turn on a dime to come to me no matter where his focus lies. I was even able to call him off mid chase when he saw a chipmunk scatter about 20 feet in front of him. I always bring hotdogs with me, but I've found that I do not need them when using the premack.

I suppose you all get certain types of dogs and carefully pick certain personalities, but if you don't mind me asking, what do you do when/if you get a sensitive dog? A dog that's perfectly content but the vibration or nick of the collar makes it shut down? Are you still going to use the e-collar? I don't mean to be e-collar negative here, just a general question to understand where you think it's ok to use an e-collar and where you draw the line.

And I appreciate the response to the original question I posed.

Much of the original poster's argument is based on the dogs "happiness' as defined by he or she.

I think you, and many others are severely confused. I never came here to argue. I came here to find about more about the use of e-collars in hunting. As far as obedience training and other situations, I disagree about using an e-collar as their are methods that I feel work better. Just my opinion. Again, sorry for voicing that.

Or are we arrogant enough to believe that we can project their willingmess to compromise their natural tendencies to suit our more civilized needs?

If you can see my picture, you'll see my dog, who is obsessed with chasing birds, laying next to a baby bird. I have like a million pictures of him just laying next to that baby. He has killed many critters, birds included, and yet I was able to get him to be able to lay down contently next to that bird. I never gave any corrections. I simply taught him the leave it command, and he complied....he complied when his biggest obsession was just sitting there calling. I'd think you guys know how crazy a dog gets when it hears a bird calling in distress.

Am I arrogant for wanting to stop his killing of birds? Am I arrogant to believe that he listened to me even though I had no way of correcting him...well, only verbal, he was nearly 30 ft away from me when I called out "leave it". I don't see it as them compromising their tendencies if you give them an outlet for it. Sure, if you keep taking away their natural tendencies and never give them anything to do, of course they'll snap. But you can't take away something without filling that void. And that's where the balance is created.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what you posted. I already did. For practically every single reason brought up for e-collar use, your response was to contest it.

Ok...fine, let me quote myself...here's my first response

Thanks for the replies.

I have nothing against e-collars. The people I know are the ones sooo opposed to it. They repeatedly post videos of people using e-collars on aggressive dogs or to simply teach a dog how to sit. That's incorrect use of an e-collar.

But I always point out that the tool is not being properly used. They then ask me how to properly use an e-collar or if there are any videos to showcase the proper use of the tool. And that's where I'm left hanging. I know of some people who use e-collars for hunting, but since I don't use them myself, I can't offer much input on how to properly use the collar.

These people are super positive reinforcement based. They believe that since essentially anything can be taught using treats and positive reinforcement that there is no need for aversives or e-collars. (not sure if you all consider it a total aversive). So, they always question the reason behind having an e-collar, the use, and how a dog is taught to respond to the e-collar. But again, since I have no personal experience, I can't really offer much insight.

And please, feel free to post as long a post as you want.

I asked for more insight and thanked others for their responses....yeah, I totally contested what they said. :roll:

Another quote from me

I see a lot of people here comparing e-collars to check cords or other past methods of corrections.

The people I know who are so opposed to e-collars always say that if you use positive reinforcement, you don't need to correct the dog. If you constantly work on recall and make it super fun for the dog, the dog will return to you. They don't believe corrections are needed for recall. I personally don't use corrections for recall.

They always say "My dog doesn't have to sit, he gets to sit". Now, I'd put my money down and say that a majority of these people have never hunted a day in the lives or even tried training a hunting dog. But they still steadfastly believe that corrections are not needed for recall work or retrieval, even if the behavior is already known. If the dog doesn't respond to you, then you need to do more training rather than do corrections or "reminders". That's their belief...so don't shoot the messenger here.

What do you all think of that?

On a side note, I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm just curious about those who actually use e-collars. I'm tired of having to constantly talk to know-it-alls who've never used an e-collar properly before and constantly dismissing it.

I asked another question to get more information on the concept of training and how to train properly. Plus, I wanted more ammo to help dismiss all the people who are 100% against e-collars no matter what.

So yeah...wow, I'm just totally against everything everybody has said....right. :roll:

Another post from me

Back OT, I wish all positive reinforcement trainers were open minded about different training methods. But sooo many just truly believe that positive reinforcement will work for any dog and make them just as good as other dogs trained with other methods or devices. Once had an extensive conversation about the use of prong collars on police dogs and schutzhund...and many positive reinforcement trainers were still soundly convinced that there was no need or use for prongs in those sports or in those training regimen. It's undoubtedly frustrating trying to have a nice debate when some are so close minded now that they've found a technique they enjoy.

I don't mean to lump every positive reinforcement trainer into this category, as they all vary greatly. But I'm mainly talking of the ones who are all about applying as minimal amount of corrections as you can.

Ope yeah...well look, I'm just totally contesting everything that's been said again....holy cow :roll:

I'm telling you how I agree with you that e-collars aren't the bane of all evil which the people who I talk to do think.

Admittedly, my next post is about my opposition to use e-collars in a dog park or on aggressive dogs. But I did not contest anything that was said regarding training for hunting or for the use of e-collars in hunting, which is what I came here for.

I'd rather not have had to quote myself, but it really seems as though you didn't read my posts yourself.

I would still enjoy more information on the specifics on how one trains a dog to be comfortable with an e-collar and the specifics of training for hunting. I'm still curious about that. I have no opposition there.

[gonehuntin']

Ecollars don't intimidate dogs when properly used. People intimidate dogs.

Dogs BEG to have an ecollar put on. They know a pleasurable experience ( a walk, hunting, training) awaits them.

No dog EVER in the retriever games, has ever been, or ever will be made an FC by the use of positive reinforcement only. Whether it's from a whip or an ecollar, every dog has to run with respect for his handler.

If you have never competed in hunting trials of any kind, and it seems from your posts you're not a hunter at all and don't own a hunting dog, then you have absolutely NO idea what it takes to win in these games.

Seems to me like you're a bunny hugger trying to pick on fight on a hunting dog board.

[Iowa]

What if she decided to chase an animal into the street while a car was in the street, I can then shock her or even vibrate it and she remembers that she is not allowed in the street. I would much rather do this than chain in out in the front yard. How is chaining a dog more humane than a shock or even vibration. If I tied my V up in the front yard she would go nuts. How is that far to the dog?

A long line has a higher guarantee than a shock collar. What if the battery dies? What if the receiver doesn't work? What if you don't catch the dog in time to push the button? If your dog mostly stays in your yard and only occasionally tries to cross, then no, I don't see a problem with it. What I am talking about are people who have dogs who would bolt out of the yard at the sight of anything or if a new smell drifted there way. I think it would be better for the dog to be on a long line for safety rather than having to get nick and rely on the human's observation and timing.

And there's nothing wrong with a long line. People tend to think that putting a long line on a dog is the same as tieing it to a tree with a 3 ft leash. Yeah, no, completely wrong. A long line gives a dog just as much freedom if used right. Tie it to a tree and just leaving a dog out there is not using it right.

Your not hearing me. I've shocked my dog MAYBE 8 times in 4 years. She doesnt stray away from me. The shock collar is a safety for her JUST IN CASE. Tying a high energy V up in the front yard with kids running around and other dogs is not the answer.

For the dog park situation with my neighbors NON neutered male. This is for the safety of all the dogs at the park. He will not start a fight but he will not back down. We are working with him on more socialization but for his safety and the safety of the other dogs I suggest keeping the collar on. I little shock can break a fight up quick.

This is another thing I steadfastly disagree with. A shock collar should NEVER be used on an aggressive dog. Think about it, every time this dog gets riled up, it gets shocked. No wonder it keeps fighting or becomes uncomfortable around other dogs. If every time you say another person you got shocked, would you be happy seeing other people? If every time you got near a person, you got zapped, would you be happy about other people approaching you? So, if you shock a dog that lashes out against other dogs, you're only creating more anxiety. This dog realizes that it gets shocked when other dogs are around or when it's in close proximity to other dogs....so, it becomes afraid of other dogs because of the possibility of getting shocked, and it ends up lashing out and biting out of fear to scare the other dogs off because IT doesn't want to be shocked. Trust me, I've seen it. Aggressive or fearful aggressive dogs only become more anxious when a shock collar is being used on them when dealing with their aggression/fear aggression.

You want to create a positive association with other dogs for that aggressive dogs. Other dogs shouldn't be a sign of a possibility of getting shocked. The sight of other dogs should be a sign of treats or praise or good things. When you do this, the dog becomes happy in seeing other dogs. It's like this, if someone slapped you across the face every time you saw or got close to another person and you showed signs of stress/anxiety/fear and tried to protect yourself (in a dog, growling, nipping, biting, screaming, barking, etc.), you wouldn't welcome the sight of other people. In fact, you'd become more hostile to them. But if someone paid you $500 every time you saw someone, you'd be more open about seeing them. Same with dogs.

Your not hearing me again. My neighbors dog is not aggressive OTHER dogs are. If I could force them not to bring those dogs the world would be a better place. Now have you ever seen a pack of well balanced dogs and ONE SINGLE dog starts something. The whole pack runs over and starts something. This is the pack mentality. Even the well balanced dogs with get into the mix. This is when I would use a collar. But once again I barely use mine. For the most part my V doesnt even like other dogs. She would rather play fetch.

[ezzy333]

Ope yeah...well look, I'm just totally contesting everything that's been said again....holy cow

I'm telling you how I agree with you that e-collars aren't the bane of all evil which the people who I talk to do think.

Admittedly, my next post is about my opposition to use e-collars in a dog park or on aggressive dogs. But I did not contest anything that was said regarding training for hunting or for the use of e-collars in hunting, which is what I came here for.

I'd rather not have had to quote myself, but it really seems as though you didn't read my posts yourself.

I would still enjoy more information on the specifics on how one trains a dog to be comfortable with an e-collar and the specifics of training for hunting. I'm still curious about that. I have no opposition there.

If you agree with something that has been said then you will have to say so. At this point i can't find where you have once said that you didn't know something or that you have learned something from any post that has been made. This is just one of the reasons why people are thinking you aren't being completely honest.

You made the statement that you don't use and e-collar yet you are quick to condemn their use in a dog park or an a aggressive dog. Tell us about your experiences that have led you to those conclusions. Then people might think you are being completely truthful instead of baiting. No one says you have to agree with everything but when you disagree then tell us your experiences that led you to your believe.

Specifics on how you train a hunting dog have been made by many people but let me try to make it a little clearer. You train a hunting dog just like you tran any other dog. And you use the e-collar to enforce know commands. You do this every time you take the dog any place, whether it is a poodle or a GSP. They are dogs and you are training every time you have contact. A hunting dog is trained in a dog park just like it is in the field. From your posts you still do not understand how to use a collar and it is apparent that you probably won't learn from this thread. Because a dog has an e-collar on does not say it is being used. It is there when you need it and that is all. It is not used for teaching in most cases but is there to reinforce a command when the dog does not comply. When a dog is in the field or in the backyard or a dog park does not enter into when the collar is used but the dogs actions do. When you say come and the dog does not come that might trigger a reminder no matter where you are.

If you have read all of these posts I think everyone has explained that the collar is less severe than a leash. The law in most places say a dog needs to be on a leash when you take it off of your property. I haven't heard you say that is unnecessary or overkill and yet the collar being on a dog though not being used is overkill. Why do you continue to say that when it has been explained that it is nothing but a leash which you think is fine? Seems to all of us that your opinions have not changed one iota from your first post to the last one. And that is not conducive to having anyone think you are wanting info so you can explain why an e-collar is a great tool to your friends that don't think a collar should be on a dog at the dog park or in their yard like you do.

These forums re a great place to learn through other peoples experiences but it just doesn't help a bit for someone to keep asking for info and never acknowledging you have learned a thing from the posts already offered. I would suggest you ask specific questions on the things you want to know and offer experiences that have led you to your opinions and maybe this thread can be saved and and used by you to further your knowledge. Lessons learned will change opinions simple as that. Let us hear how your opinions have changed through the knowledge you have learned that has given you a basic understanding of an e-collar and how it is used in training.

Ezzy

[Iowa]

I'm going to add a few more things then I'm done with this thread. Consistency is the greatest tool a trainer has. Wether by a long lead, pinch collar, or a shock collar. If your going to use the collar you need to be consistent about it. When I say use it I mean have it on the dog. Training a hunting dog "hunting things" is no different than teaching a dog to sit. So using the collar in the field and not at the dog park would be stupid.

I dont have the pleasure of having a large yard or even a few acres unless I'm in Iowa for a weekend at the farm. I do my training in my circle. I also wear my dog out by tossing the dummy in the circle. So tying my dog up in the front yard is not an option.

My dog takes atleast 1 - 2 hour per day of exercise to get her mind right. So an ecollar in my subdivision is the only way. A 100' check word would not work.

[Ruffshooter]

Kato:
What is your back ground?
How many dogs have you trained personally?
Are you a professional trainer?
How many years have you had dogs or other animals that need training?

Why do you think the pros & amatures that have trained 10's, 100's or even thousands of dogs in their lives on here are wrong? There are many successful an humane methods to train dogs or any animal? You are learning some new ones as well and I suspect some old ones.

You got what you wanted in response to using an ecollar for training a dog (hunting dog) out of a park.
A dog does not know it is a park or not, it is a place. (Dog parks have many more distractions and dangers than the woods and fields.)
Well mannered dogs are dogs that comply. They comply because they were trained in some manner with some tools. I use collars then tranistion away from them. They learn the commands first then overlayed with the collar. Does not matter where.

I feel you are completely wrong in your approach here. You got and continue to get good info and you dispute it instead of agreeing to disagree. But IMHO you have shown very little knowledge of dogs and their manner of learning and heirarchy.

I hope you will open you eyes and heart to allow the flow of knowledge of the more fortunate than you. :roll:

This has gotten wicked stupid you are stubborn and afraid to be seen as wrong or less knowledgable. Your magazine has run low.

You teach a dog to turn off the stimulation. Check out George Hickox method and DVD all will be answered and you may just learn something.

[surferdave]

"So wait...is the e-collar being used as a correction or have you trained it as a cue to return to you? If it's a correction, that's where my uncertainty lies. What is the dog associating the correction with?"

In a dog park situation, my dog understands that when I say "come" he is expected to run back to me. So yes, it is used as a correction if my dog should decide that his interest in something else is more important than my commands. He associates the correction with not complying to the command given. Whether it is sit from a distance, down, stay, come or fetch. We train all of these commands with an e-collar so the dog knows exactly why he/she is given a correction. Also regarding your question about shutting down. Modern e-collars have so many different levels of stimulus. Even on a level 10 of 127 on my dogtra collar, I can barely feel anything on my wrist. There is a "working" or effective training level for every dog. Dogs only shut down when they are confused, or do not understand why they are getting corrected. If introduced and trained with properly in conjunction with positive reinforcement, shutting down is not an issue. As many have said, the moment I grab the e-collar my dog sits right in front of me, waiting for me to put it on. They associate it with doing fun things.

[Kato&Sanka]

If you have never competed in hunting trials of any kind, and it seems from your posts you're not a hunter at all and don't own a hunting dog, then you have absolutely NO idea what it takes to win in these games.

Seems to me like you're a bunny hugger trying to pick on fight on a hunting dog board.

Ok...wow...seriously, do I have to spell it ALL out for you? How many times to I have to frigging say this!?!?

I AM CURIOUS about the use of e-collars in HUNTING! I don't like e-collars being used in some other situations, but I am genuinely curious about the use in hunting. I have said that so many times now, and just because I don't support the e-collar in every situation, you're calling me a bunny hugger? Seriously, don't even utter the word respect. I honestly don't see how you can get any respect from anyone, or even your dog, when you're so cruel to others.

Your not hearing me. I've shocked my dog MAYBE 8 times in 4 years. She doesnt stray away from me. The shock collar is a safety for her JUST IN CASE. Tying a high energy V up in the front yard with kids running around and other dogs is not the answer.

You even quoted me saying this, but again, a common theme here, I'll have to repeat myself...

"If your dog mostly stays in your yard and only occasionally tries to cross, then no, I don't see a problem with it. What I am talking about are people who have dogs who would bolt out of the yard at the sight of anything or if a new smell drifted there way."

You don't have to shock your dog every waking moment because it's generally well mannered. So as I said, I don't have a problem with it.

Your not hearing me again. My neighbors dog is not aggressive OTHER dogs are. If I could force them not to bring those dogs the world would be a better place. Now have you ever seen a pack of well balanced dogs and ONE SINGLE dog starts something. The whole pack runs over and starts something. This is the pack mentality. Even the well balanced dogs with get into the mix. This is when I would use a collar. But once again I barely use mine. For the most part my V doesnt even like other dogs. She would rather play fetch.

So....you shock your dog when another dog is causing trouble? Well balanced dogs don't join into the fight, they either ignore it or try to settle things down. If your dog is one of those, shocking it is the last thing you want to do. You want to train to prevent that from happening. It can and has been done. If you choose to just manage instead of being proactive to prevent by having to shock your own dog because of another's mistake...well that's your own doing then.

If you agree with something that has been said then you will have to say so. At this point i can't find where you have once said that you didn't know something or that you have learned something from any post that has been made. This is just one of the reasons why people are thinking you aren't being completely honest.

Seriously? Do you want me to write and entire essay on what I've learned? I said thank you. That is acknowledgment. And I'm not here to agree or disagree, it's about learning about the use of e-collars in hunting. I clearly said I did not know much about the use of e-collars in hunting. So anything in reference to that is new to me. Excuse me for not writing out all of the sentences that have helped. I thought that part was obvious.

You made the statement that you don't use and e-collar yet you are quick to condemn their use in a dog park or an a aggressive dog. Tell us about your experiences that have led you to those conclusions.

I don't use an e-collar. I have had success without them. But I know people who use them, and I have seen their dogs reactions. I have personally seen many different dogs handled via e-collars. Were all of them just wrecks? No. Some were content, but I know of a way that is much more fun and much more engaging in having control of your dog when it comes to something as simple as a dog park. I just honestly don't see the need for an e-collar at a dog park. So many things can go wrong. As for hunting, I see possibilities. Which is why I am curious to learn more.

No one says you have to agree with everything but when you disagree then tell us your experiences that led you to your believe.

I have. And I even gave reference on what I would do and methods I use.

From your posts you still do not understand how to use a collar and it is apparent that you probably won't learn from this thread.

Ok seriously....that's a great way to go about proposing your ideals. Let's train people by insulting them. Brilliant. That'll help reinforce the positives of e-collars. :roll: If you're going to be so rude about things, then don't speak, you're only hurting yourself more. How do you expect me to become more accepting of e-collars when you're so rude about explaining it to me?

In all honesty, when you started writing about hunting and e-collars, I thought "Finally!"....but then you were rude...so now I'm having a hard time reading the rest of your post seriously. If you want to show the good of e-collars and educate people, I suggest you not be so rude. I haven't insulted anyone here....so why take the time to insult someone asking for information on the use of e-collars in hunting? E-collars is a touchy subject, but if you want to be heard, you have to be respectful to others, even if they may oppose some of your ideals.

If you have read all of these posts I think everyone has explained that the collar is less severe than a leash.

Which I found odd....not that an e-collar is less severe....but the fact that sooo many people kept bringing that up when I never even proposed or even talked about severity to begin with. I just think people are so used to being criticized for using e-collars that they're so quick to jump the gun and defend themselves or attack the "newcomer".

I haven't heard you say that is unnecessary or overkill and yet the collar being on a dog though not being used is overkill.

I never said that....I said shocking a dog at a dog park may cause more problems because you aren't 100% sure what the dog is associating the shock with. I never said anything about it being cruel. I'm assuming that I'm talking to people who use e-collars responsibly and aren't those maniacs who are anxious to zap there dog at any given second. And you all seem to be assuming that I think e-collars are cruel devices. Perhaps we shouldn't make assumptions.

Why do you continue to say that when it has been explained that it is nothing but a leash which you think is fine?

Because it's not a leash. The purpose behind it may have the same concept of the leash, but it's still not a leash. And I know some people use beeps or vibrations to remind there dogs, but I am referring to actual shocks. Although I know they're not dangerous in the right hands and aren't necessarily painful....it's still electricity. And it's not the same as a leash in actuality. And just to make myself clear, when I am in support of a leash, I'm not in full support of just leash popping as opposed to nicks from an e-collar. I'm supporting a leash as a way for containment, not corrections.

Seems to all of us that your opinions have not changed one iota from your first post to the last one. And that is not conducive to having anyone think you are wanting info so you can explain why an e-collar is a great tool to your friends that don't think a collar should be on a dog at the dog park or in their yard like you do.

Seriously....are my words disappearing or something? My opinion on e-collars in certain situations was there. But I was curious about hunting....so saying my opinion hasn't changed from the first post is ridiculous. I never had an opinion on e-collars for hunting dogs, which is what I've been asking for this entire time. Saying it's a moot point to continue because I disagree with using e-collars in other situations is just stupid. You're missing the whole point of me starting this thread.

I'm open minded about the use of e-collars in situations where I personally feel they fit in. I know people who always dismiss e-collars no matter what. I wanted to learn more about e-collars for hunting so I'd be able to have more knowledge to tell them that e-collars aren't all bad. But again...maybe I should just go with them because at least they're not rude about their opinions unlike the majority here. :roll:

I would suggest you ask specific questions on the things you want to know and offer experiences that have led you to your opinions and maybe this thread can be saved and and used by you to further your knowledge.

I did. I asked if an e-collar was just used as a correction or if it was ever used as a cue. Yet the only responses I get are that I'm a bunny hugger who is close minded and only came here for a fight. How can I ask any more questions if those are the answers I get?

If your going to use the collar you need to be consistent about it. When I say use it I mean have it on the dog. Training a hunting dog "hunting things" is no different than teaching a dog to sit. So using the collar in the field and not at the dog park would be stupid.

This is what I don't understand. Wouldn't you WANT to fade out the tool? Isn't that the whole point of training and using it to reinforce what you've trained? If you're just going to use it your whole life, what's the point in continuing training?

I also wear my dog out by tossing the dummy in the circle. So tying my dog up in the front yard is not an option.

This is where we get mixed up. A long line, as I said, doesn't mean tying a dog up to a tree and leaving it there. I put my dogs on long lines so they can run around. I had my dog on an 80 footer today, and he had all the fun in the world playing whack a "mole" by trying to catch all of the chipmunks when they'd pop up out of their holes.

And so...if an e-collar is the same as a leash....why is it that it's so stupid to put your dog on a long line then?

My dog takes atleast 1 - 2 hour per day of exercise to get her mind right. So an ecollar in my subdivision is the only way. A 100' check word would not work.

There are many other ways to exercise your dog mentally and physically. I roller blade...bike....hike...walk...train tricks...all sorts of stuff. And I don't need an e-collar. They all work well.

[Kato&Sanka]

What is your back ground?

???specifics???

How many dogs have you trained personally?

Multiple.

Are you a professional trainer?

No, but anyone can call themselves a professional. There are no regulations on it. So I don't see how this has anything to do with it. I suppose I could just call myself a professional.

How many years have you had dogs or other animals that need training?

Over a decade.

Why do you think the pros & amatures that have trained 10's, 100's or even thousands of dogs in their lives on here are wrong?

Where did you get that? I never said anyone was wrong. I just said I disagree with e-collars being used in different places. What's so wrong with voicing my opinion on that? And for the record, just because you've been training for a long time doesn't always mean you're doing it the best way. If anyone knows of Brad Pattison....you'll know what I'm talking about.

You got what you wanted in response to using an ecollar for training a dog (hunting dog) out of a park.

What? All I wanted was to learn more about the role of e-collars in hunting...

I feel you are completely wrong in your approach here. You got and continue to get good info and you dispute it instead of agreeing to disagree.

I'm not disputing. I stated my opinion on a matter. All I wanted was more info on an e-collar in hunting. I feel like I should just copy and paste that last sentence because I've repeated it about a million times and still nobody seems to be understanding that.

I'm not here to agree or disagree. I'm just here to gather more info. I'll make up my mind when I feel I have all the pieces. But typing up a thread on an internet forum is no where near close to solving this. It's just a small chunk of an assortment of things to learn from. I'm not going to say I agree with you when I'm not sure if I do yet. I haven't said anything negative about the use of e-collars in hunting. I only have questions which go unanswered or are only brief answers which I already knew to begin with. I was hoping to go into more depth about the use.

But IMHO you have shown very little knowledge of dogs and their manner of learning and heirarchy.

Ok now this is wrong. I know a bunch about dogs. I have done tons of research and have lots of personal experience. There is no such thing as hierarchies in dog "packs". In fact, studies have shown that dogs don't always live in packs when left to their own devices. So, for you to even utter that word makes me severely question any advice you give. I seriously have done so much research on that material because it interests me. I bought into the dominance and alpha crap at first, but then did more research and found studies to prove those false.

This has gotten wicked stupid you are stubborn and afraid to be seen as wrong or less knowledgable.

Wicked stupid? You from Boston or something?

I'm not being stubborn...you guys are just feeling attacked because I don't agree with everything you do. I asked questions about e-collars in hunting and got responses about dominance, heriarchies, and using e-collars to keep dogs in yards and at parks.....Excuse me for going off on a tangent. But the original idea behind this thread is still there.

I'm not being stubborn. You all are the ones talking and acting like know-it-alls.

[Ron R]

WOW

[kninebirddog]

Kato&Sanka

I think it is very nice of you to have such wonderful pets...What you are doing here is baiting

I'm not being stubborn...you guys are just feeling attacked because I don't agree with everything you do. I asked questions about e-collars in hunting and got responses about dominance, heriarchies, and using e-collars to keep dogs in yards and at parks.....Excuse me for going off on a tangent. But the original idea behind this thread is still there.

I'm not being stubborn. You all are the ones talking and acting like know-it-alls.

I am sure you have plenty of experience with companion pets but it is clear you do not have an idea what a hunting dog is about nor the training it really requires to have a partner in the field


Your tangent is just proof you do not wish to learn our world you may not agree with how we do things..that is fine but again we train for for more in our dogs that having a dog lay down by a baby bird in the back yard for a cute picture..I do not have use for a dog that lays down by a song bird in the back yard...nor do I have use for a dog that will not hold point on a bird and just chases them or tries and kills them..
My dogs better work intelligently in front of me and when they locate birds they better hold point till I get there and when I harvest that bird they better go find it and retrieve it because they have the desire to and the manners to do it properly
our dogs are selectively bred to have the desire to do this...like cattle dogs are bred to have herding instincts

Mix breed dogs are for people who want to have a companions around the house maybe catch a frisbee or do stupid pet tricks to even be some type of service which doesn't require the drive which hounds and birds dogs are bred for.

With that said I do not see this post going where it will benefit anyone

If you really want to learn about our dogs try reading the brag posts and hunting stories and training

This site is geared for hunting dogs not companion fidos and the requirements for what is needed is like comparing apples to t bone steaks your not even in the same food group

[Iowa]

.

So....you shock your dog when another dog is causing trouble? Well balanced dogs don't join into the fight, they either ignore it or try to settle things down. If your dog is one of those, shocking it is the last thing you want to do. You want to train to prevent that from happening. It can and has been done. If you choose to just manage instead of being proactive to prevent by having to shock your own dog because of another's mistake...well that's your own doing then.

I keep her away from the problem in the first place with VERBAL commands. Once again I've used the shocker maybe 8 times in 4 years. Her having the collar on keeps her head level and I dont have to shock her. 1 problem dog WILL upset a whole pack of great dogs. I've seen it done 100 times. If you dont believe me watch what happens on the good ole dog whisperer whith his pack of well balanced pits and rottys when ONE dog doesnt behave. The whole pack reacts.

This is what I don't understand. Wouldn't you WANT to fade out the tool? Isn't that the whole point of training and using it to reinforce what you've trained? If you're just going to use it your whole life, what's the point in continuing training?.

Would you fade out the leash on walks with traffic involved? NO so I still use the collar. Once again I'VE ONLY SHOCKED MY DOG 8 TIMES IN 4 FLIPPING YEARS!!!!! I guess we all fade out the tool to a certain extent. But I always have it on her. To a certain extent you fade out a leash, pulling it back to get her to walk next to you and not pulling it all the time. This doesnt mean you would get ride of the leash.

This is where we get mixed up. A long line, as I said, doesn't mean tying a dog up to a tree and leaving it there. I put my dogs on long lines so they can run around. I had my dog on an 80 footer today, and he had all the fun in the world playing whack a "mole" by trying to catch all of the chipmunks when they'd pop up out of their holes.

And so...if an e-collar is the same as a leash....why is it that it's so stupid to put your dog on a long line then?.

You dont own a V and dont understand how much it takes to wear one out. Come over to my house and use a 80 lead. You see how many parked cars, boats, and trees the dog gets tangled up in. Also when a car comes down the street I would love to see you pulling a 80 lead back. That would be a fun one.

There are many other ways to exercise your dog mentally and physically. I roller blade...bike....hike...walk...train tricks...all sorts of stuff. And I don't need an e-collar. They all work well.

I work up to 70 hours per week. I work at home so I exercise my dog out side when I take a break or after work. With a hunting breed a simple walk will not do the trick. You would pass out before my dog would stark to pant. I dont rollerblade nor wish to. I need intense physical activity for my dog EVERY day. I hike on weekends but 2 times a week is not enough for a hunting dog. I train every day in the yard with plenty of distractions for her.

[phermes1]

Kato, I think your best bet at this point is to walk away.

[Ruffshooter]

Wicked stupid? You from Boston or something?

Now that really hurts. You are not playing fair.

I only have questions which go unanswered or are only brief answers which I already knew to begin with. I was hoping to go into more depth about the use.

Get George Hickox videos or DVD. all will be answered. So many have answered yet you don't get what you want. Perhaps there is a flaw in your question.
Some of the top trainers in the Country are on this forum and some have answered you others are not responding because they are smarter than I an amature trainer with only around 70 or so partially under my belt.

You research dogs stuff alot, well go to Discovery and the wild Dogs of Georgia. (Don't remember the actual title) That particular one covers feral dogs all over the world. But in particular how the feral dogs developed into packs over the generations and even bred back into (pure wild type dogs) Ears, body types manner etc. (reminded me of Dingo's in Austrailia.)

This has been fun reading and certainly useless so I am out. Check out Hickox.

Good luck with your quest and the perfect answer that you understand.

Good luck with your multiple dogs which maybe, only two if it has only been 10 years or so.

[surferdave]

I did. I asked if an e-collar was just used as a correction or if it was ever used as a cue. Yet the only responses I get are that I'm a bunny hugger who is close minded and only came here for a fight. How can I ask any more questions if those are the answers I get?

I believe I answered this question for you in my post.

"So wait...is the e-collar being used as a correction or have you trained it as a cue to return to you? If it's a correction, that's where my uncertainty lies. What is the dog associating the correction with?"

In a dog park situation, my dog understands that when I say "come" he is expected to run back to me. So yes, it is used as a correction if my dog should decide that his interest in something else is more important than my commands. He associates the correction with not complying to the command given. Whether it is sit from a distance, down, stay, come or fetch. We train all of these commands with an e-collar so the dog knows exactly why he/she is given a correction. Also regarding your question about shutting down.

You don't seem to understand that training a hunting dog does not only apply to being out in the field hunting. The discipline and obedience required of our dogs on a hunt is just as important in a dog park. Dog training is about consistency, and repetition. We can't just say "hey, we expect you to be 100% compliant in the field, but at a dog park just do what you want". The dog is already conditioned to the collar and understands what is expected of them, why train differently depending on the environment? Also one question for you, what about hunting makes you think an e-collar is ok for it's application?

[gonehuntin']

Seriously, don't even utter the word respect. I honestly don't see how you can get any respect from anyone, or even your dog, when you're so cruel to others.

I don't think you'll ever have to worry about getting respect from ANYONE on this board.

[Kato&Sanka]

am sure you have plenty of experience with companion pets but it is clear you do not have an idea what a hunting dog is about nor the training it really requires to have a partner in the field

Well, yeah, that should be pretty clear as I've admitted it several times! Heck, that's why I came here, so I could learn more. But since I've shown that I don't agree with using e-collars everywhere, people have decided that it's not worth talking about hunting, as I have again, said SOOO many times that's what I'm interested in learning about, and instead, they choose to call me names.

Your tangent is just proof you do not wish to learn our world you may not agree with how we do things..

No, I went off on a tangent because for 1, I just stated my opinion on something and for 2, people started insulting me, so I got defensive. Also, people started asking me questions on a different topic, so I answered them, which furthered strayed me from my original post. So no, it's not that cut and dry. If people ask me questions, I'll answer them. I'm not going to just ignore them so I can just skip to the point. They're asking questions for answers just as I am. I want my questions answered, so I assume they want theirs answered too.

that is fine but again we train for for more in our dogs that having a dog lay down by a baby bird in the back yard for a cute picture.

Ok wow, you missed the whole point of that. I didn't make my dog lay down and pose for a picture. I told him to leave the bird alone, to which he did. All of the pictures I took were of him making his own decision to listen to me. Laying down next to the bird was his own desicion. I didn't put him there. I didn't tell him to stay. He did it all on his own. All I did was tell him leave it. The rest was up to him. I didn't need an e-collar to diminish his instinct to naturally kill that bird, as he has reinforced this behavior many times on his own.

And no, my dogs are not hunting dogs. But don't get on your high horse and just lump me in there with a regular family pet. I have my dogs for a reason, and not just to lay around and occasionally take on walks. I put them to work. It may not be as direct as hunting, but it's work none the less.

Mix breed dogs are for people who want to have a companions around the house maybe catch a frisbee or do stupid pet tricks to even be some type of service which doesn't require the drive which hounds and birds dogs are bred for.

Yeah, ok...you've proven your ignorance. Everything else you say is void from now on. I can't take anything you say seriously when someone openly says something so stupid.

With that said I do not see this post going where it will benefit anyone

How can it benefit anyone when you're insulting dogs and people? What have you brought to the table but ill manners and disrespect?

Would you fade out the leash on walks with traffic involved? NO so I still use the collar.

But see, this is where we differ. I don't use a leash for corrections. I use it for containment. You use an e-collar for corrections. So how can you compare the two when they're used differently?

You dont own a V and dont understand how much it takes to wear one out. Come over to my house and use a 80 lead.

I don't use a long line to wear out a dog. I use a long line for containment to let the dog have fun. I wear dogs out by rollerblading, biking, hiking, or whatever else is available to me. Simply tossing a toy around the yard isn't sufficient enough, whether on leash or off. I think you completely missed that I had said that before.

You see how many parked cars, boats, and trees the dog gets tangled up in. Also when a car comes down the street I would love to see you pulling a 80 lead back. That would be a fun one

I don't tie the lead up to anything. I let the dogs drag it. I keep them away from roads to prevent any altercations with cars in the first place. I keep pace with the end of the long line...not the very end, I give about 10 ft of slack. So if the dog bolts, I can grab hold.

With a hunting breed a simple walk will not do the trick. You would pass out before my dog would stark to pant. I dont rollerblade nor wish to. I need intense physical activity for my dog EVERY day. I hike on weekends but 2 times a week is not enough for a hunting dog. I train every day in the yard with plenty of distractions for her.

Ok, that's good for you guess. But I rollerblade with my dogs daily....and usually twice a day. It is a very intense workout. They're completely drained. So if you don't wish to try it, why are you talking about how much work your dog needs? I have yet to see a dog that doesn't tire before me on rollerblades. They do the runnin' and I just stand there.

Kato, I think your best bet at this point is to walk away.

Ok then....I guess that's how you all treat someone who doesn't think exactly like you. I'm not opposed to e-collars. I don't think unkindly of people who use them. I just have a different opinion of them in certain situations. I'm open about hunting...which I thought this forum would be a good place to learn....but I guess if you don't just nod your head and say yes to all, you get the boot.

Great place you all have here.

Good luck with your quest and the perfect answer that you understand.

I don't wish for a perfect answer. I just want a more in depth discussion about how exactly one trains a dog to an e-collar and how it is exactly used.

So far I've gotten, if used properly a dog won't fear an e-collar....and an e-collar is just used like a long line. If that's all that's too an e-collar, then I guess I got my hopes up. I was thinking it just wasn't that vague. When people speak of e-collars, they always add "when trained properly".....I want to know what exactly properly training a dog to an e-collar entails. What is proper and what is improper? Do you just gauge them based on your results? As in, if a dog complies, it's proper, but if a dog doesn't or becomes scared, it's improper? Is it just guess and check?

The dog is already conditioned to the collar and understands what is expected of them, why train differently depending on the environment? Also one question for you, what about hunting makes you think an e-collar is ok for it's application?

I'm not a one trick pony, so I don't use the same methods for every scenario because honestly, I don't believe 1 method works for everything. Just my opinion.

I think e-collars for hunting are ok because of all of the potential dangers and the distances. Many times, depending on location and such, you may not be able to see your dog and the next thing you know it may be heading straight for danger...wind in its face...focused on whatever it's chasing. You can't call that dog back. It can't hear you. Hand signals won't work because it can't see you. So, and e-collar would work wonderfully in that situation.

I also think e-collars are good for dogs who chase birds off of runways. Roaring plane engines, combined with wind blowing through the ears, plus the thrill of the chase...you'd be hard pressed to stop that dog with anything else. And you wouldn't want it running into the path of a landing plane....or one taking off either. So, an e-collar is good.

But a dog park is not the same. It's a completely different level of intensity. It's a completely different mindset. Your dog playing with other dogs is not the same state of mind as your dog out on the hunt. So why would you treat it the same?

[Greg Jennings]

The dog has the ecollar on it at, for example, a leisurely walk, for a couple of different reasons:

1. Just in case. Improbable things happen all the time and we want to be able to handle it.
2. The dogs wear the collar almost all the time, even when we *know* we're not going to use it to help with the dog becoming "collar wise".

With that said: why don't you lurk a while, listen and learn. Learn the context that we're speaking from. Please also note the context of my suggestion.

[jiml]

But see, this is where we differ. I don't use a leash for corrections. I use it for containment. You use an e-collar for corrections. So how can you compare the two when they're used differently?>>>>>>

I would guess that if your dog once pulled and you "acted like a tree" eventually the dog learned not to pull - is that the method you used? well by not walking and the dog getting the uncomfortable feeling of pulling without the reward of going forward - you effectively corrected the dog. It still is avoidance training the dog is avoiding pulling because there was no reward just discomfort.

In fact there was research done I believe in a Canadian university that showed high drive dogs (Belgian Malinoi) exibeted less stress, measured by cortisol levels, than when a treat was withheld.