Won't stop/hold point

[Prairie Buster]

New guy here from TX. As I said in the 'Welcome' section, I received an EP through a friend I have hunted with. He is my first dog and I have been working him on some pigeons from the local feed store. Ranger is really quick out in the field and fun to watch run. He has not been worked much before I got him, but my friend says he has a pretty good pedigree. There are a lot of miller dogs and a white powder dog is in there two or three times. The dad has gaurd rail or a rail dancer dog in several times on like the grandparents side. Anyway, my problem is when I am trying to work him he doesn't want to point all the time, if any. I have done a little work with the checkcord and it helps sometimes, but most of the time he points for a second and then pulls me into the bird. At that point the bird gets spooked and flies off. If he is running around without the checkcord, he basically won't point at all. I really like him and my friend says that this isn't common in the dogs he came from, so I don't know why this happening. It is hot down here, but I have only worked him early in the morning. Could someone please help me, or tell me something to improve my situation with him?

Thanks

[collinedward]

I am no one to give advice. I had the same problem until I switched to quail. If you have good quail and plant them lightly they should flush about the time the dog gets a good scent. He will eventually learned to stop and point when he gets a scent. I train by myself most of the time so good birds make a huge difference..

[Chukar12]

Hello and welcome...how old is your dog and has he had any work prior to you?

[Birddogz]

If you get some launchers and blow the birds out of the launcher when he gets too close he should with repetition learn to hold.

[Chukar12]

I am going to assume that we are dealing with a pup that is 16 weeks old or older. I would continue with pointing drills including getting the dog used to having someone in front of them. When the puppy establishes point, or truly at first scent gently restrain the dog, if its really young and is shy about birds let it chase and slowly slow it to a stop with the checkcord. If you are positive about its chasing instinct restrain it gently at the place it establishes point and don't let it advance. I use a half hitch set-up that I cannot decribe in type very well but here goes...snap a checkcord to the collar and as the line runs back loop the cord around underneath the belly and pull the free end back behind to form a half hitch around pups middle.

That is as clear as mud...look at this video for a visual. http://www.georgehickox.com/george_hick ... vidP1.html

This step takes awhile if you want a dog with compliance and style. Patience never hurt a thing...get in too big a hurry or too rough and you risk a dog that thinks birds are a drag and heaven forbid...one that starts blinking. I would consider a pointing dog method by a commercial trainer with readily available training materials like Rick/Ronnie Smith, George Hickox, or Perfection ( i havent seen their material but others with credibilty like them) and follw their program. It takes out the guess work and helps keep you on track. Whne you run into a problem this site is full of old posts about all methods and folks readily available to answer questions that are familiar with all methods.

[tailcrackin]

Prairiebuster, welcome.
Usually Miller blood doesnt do alot of quirky stuff, it is alot of times, stout an pretty sensible.
Dogwork is pretty simple if you allow it to be, myself, I dont believe in alot of gimmicks or accessories in fixing or straightening things out in the dogs mind. The key is staying on their table. If you allow things to be understood between you an the dog, everything should be fine.
With this style of fix, a huge number of birds at one time probably wont help, the dog is coming unglued with birds, so we need to help him understand what he is suposed to do with them. When you pass him a bunch of birds, I feel that you are more fueling the fire, instead of getting the fire under control. I will try an chime back at lunchtime, will try an help you get things figured out. Explain some things that I do when working on this type of fix, Ok?? Thanks Jonesy

[BrittGSP818]

Welcome to the forum prairie buster,

Lets take a step back here, have you whoa broke or attempted to train your pup on whoa. If not then I would stop the bird work (since this is the root of the problem) and begin basic whoa training. Put him on a short leash and walk, stop and yank the leash and command whoa. Hold there for a few seconds and then give the command heel and walk. Do this for no more than 5 mins a day until you are confident that he has the concept down. At this point should command whoa and take a few steps to the side of the dog, later advancing to walking in front and around him. You should get to the point that you could leave the leash and walk a distance and he will hold. Once this is established you can now bring the bird back into the picture. Put a bird on the ground where he can see the bird, then walk him on a leash and command whoa when you want him to stop. I would do command whoa once I see the pup catch scent, or when he becomes really interested in the bird. Repeat this until you see that he begins to estabish point without you giving the command.

Hope this helps,

George

[Chukar12]

I would be very cautious about using whoa as a means for establishing point. Whoa is not a command used for birds exclusively it simply means to stop and stand still until instructed to do otherwise. We still havent heard how old the dog is and what work has been done thus far, it dounds with the limited information like you are trying to get the dog to establish point, not hold it yet? Holding point should come way after the yardwork is advanced along including the whoa command, which should have nothing to do with birds at this point.

In addition, I would not train using any sight pointing. If you want the dog to point it should be on scent. Any sight work should be stop to flush types of drills.

[Chukar12]

I wanted to add a thought...with pups early working on restraint is different than whoa work or steadying them. It is simply behavioral shaping. If you are in a Huntsmith class they will teach you to crawl up the checkcord kneel down and hold the dog while the bird flushes never saying a word. Hickox will teach restraining the puppy with a half hitch checkcord...slowing him to a stop during the chase and later when he is confident holding him at the flush...again never saying a word. The West/Gibbons folks will teach a dog to stop with a pinch or spike collar and then proceed to letting the birds teach whoa using these tools in stop to flush drills initially, again never using a word. All of these trainers will caution you on being too disciplined too early, all dogs are different but most don't start the real breaking/steadying process before a year.

I think it is best to pick an established method and then stick with it. There are many people on the forum familiar with all of these types of training and if you follow one of them they have a much better chance of explaining how to help as they will have common language to assist you with.

[birddogger]

Keep in mind that there are people on here who are more knowledgeable than I am, but I will chime in. I would not be trying to force the dog to point by means of restraining with a CC or with a whoa command. As has been said before, it needs to be between him and the birds. I do differently than some, in that I will use the whoa command around birds after they are establishing solid points, but sometimes may get a little case of happy feet.

As chukar advised, don't get him sight pointing. That is one of the worst things you could do. Also, some dogs will just not show a lot of interest or pointing instinct on pigeons. Just be patient and try not to get too stressed out about it, and remember you cannot force or teach him to point. If it is there it will come out. Launchers have been suggested and they would be a valuable tool for you.

[snips]

So how old is your dog?

[BrittGSP818]

I should have mentioned this in my first post. I used this method to teach my 9 month old gsp who had the same issue of flash pointing or just running in. The reason I said (did the same with my pup) sight pointing is so the pup knows that the bird is there before catching scent and getting really excited. Regards to the whoa command, I used the bird also to help transition the whoa means stop to the bird means stop. Not saying this the right or best way to do it, but it sure worked for my dog.

[birddogger]

Once again, how old is your dog?

Charlie

[Sprig]

pointing is an instinct that needs to be developed naturally and then sharpened with some whoa training. sounds like you need to get a remote bird launcher and a bunch of pigeons and give him a bunch of "flyaways" to start giving him the idea that he is busting the birds and once he starts to realize that, he should start to slow down and hold point better. at that point you start to whoa train him and steady him up but until he has had that natural instinct brought out you really shouldn't worry too much about check chords and trying to get him to point. it will come when it is ready, don't worry about that. it takes birds, birds and more birds to bring out that instinct. I have seen some pointing dogs start to show it after 5 pigeons and some it took 50 or more but they all will start to slow down and point more when they hit their magical number of birds, and every dog is different in that area. Take a look at this video and it will help show you what i mean.
http://thepointingdogblog.blogspot.com/ ... rking.html

this was taken in april of this year. This young dog was breaking on every bird. I couldn't even get close to him before he broke. I just kept putting him on flyaways like you will see at the end of the video and he got much better. When he started to back off the birds a bit I spent a couple weeks or so and whoa trained him with an e-collar, then put him back on birds and whoa'd him up in the field a few times and now he is 100% steady. He has not had more than 3 months of total training in his life when its all said and done and now he has gone from a wild GSP busting everything in the county to now being a dog ready to hunt. it all comes down to flyaways and when you launch the bird. it is really that simple. I hope that helps.

[tailcrackin]

Well here is what I have learned with dog that have this issue, its not that hard of fix, you just change the ways of thinking a little....for now. I dont know where the force stuff came about in the topic, the way I will explain things isnt force at all, it is done with everything on the dogs table, and you allow the dog to learn an think on things.
Traps are good for alot of things, and at different stages of training, this situation, your timing is everything.....if the dog gets or is allowed to get in to tight on the game, it will know that playing is allowed, and the set up is man controlled. If you start releasing the birds to fast, you could possibly start a harder fix, and that is a dog that gets "sticky" points everything, wont and or dont run, because its afraid bird gonna flush......so this is just my opinion, do what ya want, some dogs are ok, and alot arent.
When I work on this style of fix, I use wild pigeons, carded or loose, and twenty foot checkcord. What I do, is I will dizzy a bird, and toss it on the ground, most of the time out in the open, I want the bird to be able to see what is going on from the dog...or me. The dog, I dont care if it is sight or scent on the bird, it isnt pointing anyway, so doesnt really matter, its gonna put the bird in the air. My main concern is the bird can get out of harms way very easily.
When i work the dog into the area of the bird, I will try an stay at about 8ft area of the check cord, this will allow cord to feed threw my hands when its needed.
What I do, is I let the dog make its decision on what its gonna do, or how quick its gonna bump the bird an not point. So, when it shows what its thinking, I will allow the bump.....i give the dog just enough cord to bump the bird, but not catch, and no more cord to be allowed to move forward. So it gets enough to bump bird, and that is it. the problem is the dog wants to run an have a hayday with things, the chase is what is preventing the pointing, would rather run than point........so we eliminate its options, and the only thing it can do is stand an point. there are no other options. The great thing on doing things this way, wether right or wrong in peoples eyes, is it is all left up to the dog on what it wants to do. So it is on the dogs table, I am not saying a thing, I am presenting it an oppertunity to do things correctly, if it doesnt, then I and we will work together to get things straightened out. Not hard fix, just little time consuming, we are not working on steadying so the traps at this point arent gonna teach much (imo) You will get more outta the dog work, when they wanna do things with and for you, Thanks Jonesy

[birddogger]

Well here is what I have learned with dog that have this issue, its not that hard of fix, you just change the ways of thinking a little....for now. I dont know where the force stuff came about in the topic, the way I will explain things isnt force at all, it is done with everything on the dogs table, and you allow the dog to learn an think on things.

Jonesy, the force comments in the topic came about because it sounds like he is using the CC to stop the dog when he brings him in on a bird, trying to force him to point, or at least that is the way I read it. Also, I believe someone advised using the whoa command to force him to stop when he scents a bird, which is not the proper way to use the command. Now the advise you gave about using the CC to take the chase out is right on. Everything you said involves no force, which is what you want when you are trying to develop the dog's natural instincts.

Charlie

[Prairie Buster]

Thanks for all the great replys! I am sorry I have been away for a couple days. That four letter word (work) has kept me hopping this week. My dog is nearing 16 months old and he had little if any work before I got him. Thank you for the Hickox link. I have seen him and some others (Smith ?) adds in a Pointing Dog Journal magazine I picked up at Gander Mt. the other day. I will check into his stuff.

Someone mentioned not giving him too many birds. What would be the right amount right now? I was thinking of getting a couple of the launchers mentioned, but Jonesy makes it sound like I could hold off on that right now. I have been running him on a check cord and trying to stop him, but it is clear that is the wrong approach. I have also been told a shock collar would be the wrong thing to use around birds. Is that correct?

Jonesy, you mentioned being on the dog's table. Do you mean being on his level mentally or are you working him up on a table? Also, what do you mean about the 8' of check cord? I am not quite following.

[birddogger]

have also been told a shock collar would be the wrong thing to use around birds. Is that correct?

For your situation that is correct. There is a method to use the e-collar around birds for certain reasons but that is a whole other subject and don't even consider it at this point.

Jonesy, you mentioned being on the dog's table. Do you mean being on his level mentally or are you working him up on a table? Also, what do you mean about the 8' of check cord? I am not quite following.

I know what he is saying, but I don't want to put words in his mouth so I will let him explain.

Good luck,
Charlie

[Prairie Buster]

Thanks again for the advice everyone. I have been checking out the George Hickox site the was suggested and a couple others. Will let y'all know how he comes along. I have not put him on birds since starting this thread. I need to get a better plan/program together and stick with it. We have just been working on obedience around the house/yard and going for runs.

Jonesy - The wife and I have a trip planned to go to the Smoky Mountains next month. If I could carve out a day, could I bring Ranger by and let you see what he is doing?

[tailcrackin]

That would be great, love to have you, or your family, everyone is welcome at my house. Pm me some details, and we will get something figured out.
Jimbo&Rooster came out last wed. morn, had some awful weather going on, but we got some dog work done in between the rain, and really had a great time. Was alot of fun, putting a face, to a name. His dog done a real good job on things, once me an him hung out for a bit. We all had real good time. We are gonna change his name to "Dead Eye" smoked a pigeon in the head, like it was nobodies business. Pretty funny. Let me know your schedule, be happy to help. Thanks Jonesy

[jimbo&rooster]

Thanks again for the advice everyone. I have been checking out the George Hickox site the was suggested and a couple others. Will let y'all know how he comes along. I have not put him on birds since starting this thread. I need to get a better plan/program together and stick with it. We have just been working on obedience around the house/yard and going for runs.

Jonesy - The wife and I have a trip planned to go to the Smoky Mountains next month. If I could carve out a day, could I bring Ranger by and let you see what he is doing?

Man if you can get a chance to go down to see jonesy I really recomend it. We had a great time and I learned quite a bit in the short time we spent together..... In about an hour he gave me more to think about than I could really register on my ride home.
It was a trip well worth taking if you can swing it.
Jim