Dog bump

[kst]

I have a 31/2 year old setter who has been doing great this year pointing wild pheasants. He will point and hold point till flush. We have used the EC on him to stop if he bumps the bird. I want to know if the dog stops when he bumps the bird what should you do? Do you use the EC even if he stops or do you bring him back to where you think he first smelled the bird? Do you do anything if the wind is wrong and he bumps it.
Thanks

[HUTCH]

I use the ecollar to stop him. I do not move him back just make him stand where he is and dont shoot the bird!

[tailcrackin]

How did you teach him? If you taught to stop and stand with the collar, when he bumps the bird, with the bird in the air, correct him the way you taught him, so then the collar is not confusing. Go out front resimulate the flush, praise him for standing through the simulation, and tap and send on, get back in the weeds and hunt, watch him on the next bird, probably wont chase, do not correct for the bump. Wild birds are never the same, but do correct if he chases. Make sense?? thanks Jonesy

[kst]

Here is an example of one time he bumped. He was acting birdy,did a flash point at an edge of a field,then started running down till the corner of the field and out poppped a bird. He stopped to the flush. I believe the wind was coming from behind him. So on that one do I just let it go or how do I let him know he goofed? There have been others where the wind was favorable and he knew a bird was there but just looked like he needed to get closer and bumps the bird. Almost all the birds he bumps he stops when they flush. He has had a couple points,no bird, I release him, and he runs 100 or more yards and goes on point again. He has pointed the running bird. When he does this it is so great!

[tailcrackin]

Sounds like the foundation needs to be tightened, yes he stops to flush, but he should be pointing a whole lot more, should have learned by now, how close,........ you follow?? I think if it was to come here I would go back and redo, the foundation, and tighten up the nose and point. Meaning, set it up so if he comes in, points, even starts to step, birds out of there, if he hunting and getting in to close, birds out of there, I think that it boils down to no respect for the bird, he is doing what he wants because he can, that is why he is over running so frequent, and having stop to flushes all the time. He does not have to hunt for you, sounds more like he is hunting some what for himself. Does this make sense?? Thanks Jonesy

[kst]

He has pointed many birds without bumping them. I just don't know what to do when he bumps then stops to flush. Do I move him back to first scent or do I give a nick with the EC when the bird goes up? Giving the nick when the bird goes up is hard to do real quick when you are hunting. When I plant a pigeon in the remote launcher he is solid and a lot of times is solid even after the shot. If he would move I would use EC when he would chase. I would also move him back to where he pointed.

[tailcrackin]

ok, I am sorry miss understood the post, what you are doing is fine, no need in picking up and putting back, because you have already corrected, for the chase. Next time he bumps, make your correction, did you do any kind of que, for the stop and stand. meaning like a tug on the check cord, I would say you are being fair to the dog, the correction is made, mybe use low heat and a continuos nick, which will be a hotter nick at lower heat. instead of a frction of a second, it will be half a second. Which will be a hotter correction, because it is a touch longer, at the same temp, as the initial nick, that has been applied frequently before. Maybe this will help tighten him up, does this make sense? Like when you are a kid, and dad bust your butt with a belt, you get used to it, now he starts with a switch and man that hurts, different correction? Thanks jonesy

[kst]

I will try to have my hand on my EC the next time we go out. If he takes off like he is on a bird I will be ready if he bumps the bird. He will get a low continuous stimulation right when he bumps. Hopefully I will be fast enough and do it before he stops to flush. I won't do it unless I am fast enough.
He even stops when he sees a bird in the air when someone else puts the bird up! He doesn't move until I release him with a tap on the nose. We have had this happen when I flushed a bird, he stops, then I move and there are more birds that flush. That is great when evereything goes well!

[Margaret]

Here is an example of one time he bumped. He was acting birdy,did a flash point at an edge of a field,then started running down till the corner of the field and out poppped a bird. He stopped to the flush. I believe the wind was coming from behind him. So on that one do I just let it go or how do I let him know he goofed? There have been others where the wind was favorable and he knew a bird was there but just looked like he needed to get closer and bumps the bird. Almost all the birds he bumps he stops when they flush. He has had a couple points,no bird, I release him, and he runs 100 or more yards and goes on point again. He has pointed the running bird. When he does this it is so great!

I have a contrary opinion.
It seems to me your dog is doing just fine, all it needs is more experience on wild birds.
You describe running birds, how can a dog point a running bird?
Keep working the dog on wild birds and it will learn from experience, cock pheasant in particular are a difficult bird for many dogs, they need to learn caution over rush.
Your dogs temperament may get in it's way if it is unable to learn to ease off and be cautious.
If your dog stops to the flush of the bird then that is excellent.

Marg

[ezzy333]

I kind of agree with ya Margaret. I hated to give my opinion after someone else gives theirs and that wasn't how I understood the problem if there was one. I am convinced too many people get caught up in this continuous training syndrome instead of letting the dog solve the problem. If after a period of time you still see no improvement then you have a problem. But in this case the example of the dog following the bird seems to be what i want the dog to do. And the real important fact I hear in this whole thread is the dog stops to flush. That tells me he isn't flushing the bird so he can chase. I think all he needs is some time and opportunity and does not at least at this time need any major correction.

Ezzy

[tailcrackin]

Yea but ladies, the dog is 3 1/2, how long is it gonna take? I have a 1 1/2 old setter, and I am killing grouse, pheasant and wild quail over him, and I have not spent hardly any time on him because he is my personal dog, and client dogs come, first. As he says, almost all the birds he bumps, then also in the paragraph you pulled margaret, it says he knew the bird was there and tried to get a little closer and bumps it. So yes he is stopping to flush, but then in the same sentence, not stopping to point?? I bet a couple months, with remote launchers presented and worked correctly, bet he'd be respecting the bird then. Now honestly. I have hunted pheasants, wild and pen raised, all my life, born and raised in Peoria Illinois, usually first time out, if not second, the dog has figured it out well enough that the points start overloading the stop to flush. But maybe you guys are right, who knows?? Thanks Jonesy

[ezzy333]

Jonesy.

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:26 am Post subject: Dog bump

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I have a 31/2 year old setter who has been doing great this year pointing wild pheasants. He will point and hold point till flush. We have used the EC on him to stop if he bumps the bird. I want to know if the dog stops when he bumps the bird what should you do? Do you use the EC even if he stops or do you bring him back to where you think he first smelled the bird? Do you do anything if the wind is wrong and he bumps it.
Thanks

I guess the clue for me was the first sentence. The dog is pointing and is stready to flush and he is doing great. Then he asks if and when the dog flushes the bird is it ok to just stop him or should he bring him back. That was the question and it seems to me he is doing fine and given some time the dog may get even better but in actuallity I don't know if there is a dog that won't have a pheasant flush or run on it once in a while.

Ezzy

[Yawallac]

I see both sides, but I really think that kst needs to understand what the dog is doing and why before making EC corrections. If the wind is wrong and the dog bumps a bird, but stops to flush he has performed perfectly.

On the other hand, if he is creeping and bumps a bird and stops to flush then it is back to the basics to tighten him up. I would not recommend this type of training while hunting though because the timing must be exact.

The good news is that wild birds are very good at tightening up bird dogs. Their timing is always perfect.

[tailcrackin]

Everything happens for a reason, and everything always comes out in the wash. If it fails here, it will show there. I will bet it will go way back to the handler pointing and controlling the dog on the bird, I will never understand why every body has to do it for the dog, and not let the dog. But like I said it all comes out in the wash, as we see as each post gives us more and more about the dogs responses. It is cool, I am wrong, Never to big to bow out gracefully. Thanks Ladies, and yawallac, learn something new everyday, Thanks, Jonesy

[snips]

I think there are plenty of dogs that are still figuring out wild birds at 3 and 1/2. Also, I would not give this dog any correction until the birds are in the air, and it would depend on your evaluation of how it happened as to the correction. If I thought he purposefully put them up I would lay a hard correction on him at that time, enough to make him not want to mess up again. I would be sure tho, that he purposefully put the birds up, and that the correction is AFTER birds are up. He needs to be more cautious of messing up IMP. If there is any question in your mind of whether he just did ot smell the birds or was trying to figure out the scent, I would hold off on the correction, just make sure he stops and is not allowed to pursue them.

[kst]

Thanks everyone for your responses! My dog has pointed many birds where, when we get there the bird is gone,mostly late in the season. He will stand until we release him. We know there was a bird there because at one field where we hunt the farmers lab comes and hunts with us. My dog will point and the lab sees that and trys to find the bird. There have been a few times where that lab will run about 100 yards trailing the running bird and flush that bird. My dog will stay on point while that lab is trying to find the bird. We release him and he hunts on or will try to pin the bird down by making a big cast. We have shot a good many pheasants over him this year, some real nice points and retrieves. I think later in the season here, the birds just won't sit tight and he doesn't slow down when he gets close and bumps. I will watch to see if he purposely does this, but that is hard to tell when he stops to every flush. He will stop to flush even if someone a ways away flushes it. He also stops when someone shoots. Thanks everyone! We are going out Monday as it is the last day of the season here.

[Yawallac]

When you hunt that farm see if you can kennel the lab!

[kst]

We were able to have the lab go in garage one day. We have had some success leaving then sneaking back in without the lab knowing, but once we shoot she finds us.

[Luminary Setters]

New to this group and just read this thread. As someone said above, you need to hunt the dog by himself to get an honest evaluation of what is going on.

In my opinion, there is a difference between the dog bumping the bird and rooting it out- the latter being intentional. Suppose he is working a running bird, it volunteers (he didn't intentionally take the bird out), and he stops to flush. If he is corrected at that point, you are correcting him for doing something right- probably not the best idea. If he intentionally takes the bird out and stops to flush, and you correct him, he still did what he was suppose to do on the flush.

Its like repeating a command. If you command whoa and he doesn't comply, then you repeat it and he does, you cannot correct him for the first infraction.

In this situation, you need to be certain you are reading the dog correctly, and apply the correction at the proper time for the infraction, not after the fact, and especially not after he has done something right.

[Wagonmaster]

Giving the nick when the bird goes up is hard to do real quick when you are hunting. When I plant a pigeon in the remote launcher he is solid and a lot of times is solid even after the shot.

I vote with Margaret. The dog needs more wild bird exposure. Remote release traps are a great tool, but dogs get wise to the fact that they can road in, and the bird is not going anywhere. There are two cures. One is that when you train with the remote releaser, you need to stop the dog at the first sign it has winded the bird. Sometimes these signs can be subtle. I would go back to a check cord on those released birds for awhile, and use a pinch collar. Stop the dog by snapping the collar, as soon as you see it has winded the bird. If you let the dog move in, it will keep doing the same with wild birds.

Number two fix is just get it off the releaser for awhile and hunt wild birds with it. I have a 3 1/2 year old I was doing quite a bit of release trap work with this summer. I did not like the way she crowded the trap sometimes, and we did work on it. But we killed probably 50 wild roosters and sharptail over her points from Sept. to Jan. 1, and she stands way off her birds today.

actually, there are three distinct scenarios here. one is "rooting the bird out," where the dog has not learned it must point. two is bumping the bird, where the dog has not learned it must not crowd. and three is the genuine wild flush, where the dog never got in sufficient scent range of a bird to have done anything wrong. the first two issues are definitely trainable.

You gotta get the Lab out of this picture, that is nothing but a negative, and will teach the setter bad habits.

You do know to tap the dog on the back of the head and release it, if flushing does not produce the bird or the dog's posture (usually flaggin tail) tells you the bird has moved, so dog can relocate.

you are not ever going to get all of those wild roosters. some will outsmart you and the dog. that is not a fault in the dog.

i think margaret had it right.

[kst]

Thanks for all the replys. I just wrote about the lab hunting with us to point out that he will hold a point even when another dog comes in to make the flush. Also to show that there was a bird there but the bird ran from the point my dog had. I think I will use launchers with pigeons and try to keep getting him on wild birds as much as possible. Hopefully the birds will calm down a little bit now that the season is over. I will take my blank gun out and work the dogs.
Thanks again!