Water retrieves....

[jlp8cornell]

I am still in the process of FF with Max. He swims a lot during the summer and I throw bumpers for him. I always make him wait, then tell him to get it, and make him come back to heel. He would retrieve all day long if he could. Here is the question.. about 5% of the time he will not swim directly back. He swims and runs the bank. I do not want him doing this. How do I break this habit? It happens rarely, but when it does, it is frustrating. Thanks. Jen

[crackerd]

Jen, many (most) trainers discontinue marks while a dog's undergoing force fetch. Especially in water, where a dog has a proclivity to drop a bumper when exiting to shake water from its coat. About 90% of FF is the hold, so if a dog's not holding, but dropping the bumper, you're regressing with force fetch.

As for the recall, or return, from water with a retrieve, you can control that easily. Always make sure the bumper lands nearer where it was thrown from than nearer the far shore. If the dog has to swim further to get to the far shore (and up on dry land) than it has to swim in getting back to you on a straight line, it will almost always choose the shorter distance.

Also, make sure the bumper's thrown straight out from you instead of at an angle into the water. There's a science to this with retriever trainers, but you're asking only for the basic return through water instead of over land, which is easily accomplished if you do as suggested. You also, as a matter of course, should blow your come-in whistle (or shout the "Here!" command) an instant before the dog picks up the bumper - if your obedience is in place, it kicks in with the dog and can change its mind should it want to go in the opposite direction upon retrieving the bumper.

You can choose for yourself whether or not to throw marks during force fetch, but I would advise against it. You might also want to follow Evan Graham's SmartFetch program for more insight into retrieving through, and from, water.

MG

[jlp8cornell]

MG: I think you hit the nail on the head. Probably he does this when I thrown badly. Surprised it does not happen more since quite often I throw them in the field instead of the pond.

So...when you in the process of FF with a dog, you do nothing in the water with retrieving? I swim him about 6x/week when it is hot like this. He gets fairly decent exercise retrieving so we do quite a bit of it.

[mmduncan]

MG: I think you hit the nail on the head. Probably he does this when I thrown badly. Surprised it does not happen more since quite often I throw them in the field instead of the pond.

So...when you in the process of FF with a dog, you do nothing in the water with retrieving? I swim him about 6x/week when it is hot like this. He gets fairly decent exercise retrieving so we do quite a bit of it.

Jen there is a ton of opinions on this out there but generally during force fetch the dog isn't getting any marks. the best thing for you to do with him if you want to keep working with him on other things is obedience. FF is teaching the dog to hold the bird and deliver to hand every retrieve and a dog that isnt done with FF will get out of the water spit it out and shake off pick it back up and bring it to you then he's being rewarded for behavior that you are trying to correct with your FF program. Kinda sends him mixed signals.Good luck

[jlp8cornell]

Jen there is a ton of opinions on this out there but generally during force fetch the dog isn't getting any marks. the best thing for you to do with him if you want to keep working with him on other things is obedience. FF is teaching the dog to hold the bird and deliver to hand every retrieve and a dog that isnt done with FF will get out of the water spit it out and shake off pick it back up and bring it to you then he's being rewarded for behavior that you are trying to correct with your FF program. Kinda sends him mixed signals.Good luck

I do a ton of obedience. Competition obedience is our main sport. He just loves to do water retrieves. I do understand your point. I am at the point in my FF(which I do with my obed trainer), that I am throwing the dumbbell 5'.Hopefully it won't be too much longer.

[crackerd]

Jen, mmduncan has given you the straight and narrow. Alas, for force fetch, got to offer more of same insofar as putting "obedience trainer" and FF in the same sentence. The problem is, a gundog is either force fetched or it ain't - a la being a little bit pregnant. Obedience force training is ... well, for obedience retrieving - the retrieving of objects. Thrown objects and the dog retrieving them (even consistently) does not constitute force fetch. Especially for gundogs that will be picking up game or anything else on four legs you might command them to.

Looks from the video like you've got a couple of enthusiastic dogs. But if you're going to force fetch them, do it by gundog methods not obedience. I've seen pugs (!) and corgis "force fetched" in a day's time for obedience work. But I wouldn't expect them to pick up a duck or rabbit coming out of it even if they could. Big difference.

MG

[jlp8cornell]

So, the question is-- how do I train my FF differently then my obed fetch?

And we do "proof" the fetch. When you get to a certain point, she will hide the dumbbell and give the fetch command- the dog has to find it or it is ear pinched and driven to it. She wants the dog to know that if it is told to fetch, that means there is something out there even if they cannot see it.

[jlp8cornell]

Not using the ecollar at obed training.

That's why I asked how i differentiate the 2 fetches. Maybe this is a better question-- what resource (book, web, etc) can explain how to do a correct FF from start to finish?

[crackerd]

You could use Evan Graham's SmartFetch, but with a versatile breed and how you'll be working it, I'd go with, have gone with what a couple of Yalies put together: Training the Sporting Dog by Don Smith and Erv Jones. http://www.jmfink.com/cgi-bin/mivavm?Me ... e=TTSD2EFC" Best $35 you'll ever spend on yourself for training a gundog.

MG

[jlp8cornell]

Thanks MG. It's hard working a dog in different sports sometimes. I gave up tracking when he started to point birds in the middle of a track!

[jlp8cornell]

Obedience. I might be crazy but I want an OTCh (Obed Trial CH)

I also want an MH and would like to UT-- but we are in the starting phases. I did NA test him. He had just come off 5 months of strict rest from an injury and surgery. He was so bird crazy he would not point. If he had, we would have gotten a Prize 1. I belong to a NAVHDA group. I need to get my butt in gear in terms of bird work. It's hard because I am a beginner and I don't have someone to train with on a regular basis who isn't an hour away. Thinking of getting my own birds and launchers for next year.

[northern cajun]

FF leaves no option to the dog it must comply. As for obedience vs field force fetch they should be the same by that i mean whatever you tell your dog to fetch it should fetch it period (if it is capable). Land water out and back and presentation (which most people dont do). By presentation, I mean the dog should look up at you to offer the fetched item. Then you have a retriever.