How essential is F.F. ?

[Trekmoor]

Since I am from the other side of the pond I am often struck by the number of references to F.F. 'ing gundogs on this forum. Over here it is a very rare thing to ever hear anyone mention it.

I can understand that it would be useful if a dog did not like retrieving or was an unreliable retriever or that maybe the dog - if a retriever, would have some very testing retrieves to do in trials and must be able to take the pressure. Why is F.F. advised to just about everyone though ? I've been told U.S. dogs are full of "desire." So why F.F. them ?

I've been training gundogs for well over 40 years. My own dogs and other peoples dogs and I have never had to train them F.F. Even with some of the dogs that were a bit reluctant to begin with a gradual build up of desire took place and they became reliable retrievers.
I am puzzled at the insistence by so many trainers that gundogs should be F.F.'d. I am not trying to "knock" anyone , I'm just trying to understand a different dog training culture.

Bill T.

[quailrunner]

Retrieving has not been a requirement to sell dogs, Field trial titles are, so since breeders have been breeding to get more titles in their lines and retrieving is not a requirement in AKC field trials, 30-40 years of breeding has wiped out the natural instincts to retrieve.

[ezzy333]

I guess I am on the wrong side of the pond because I still have problems FF a dog that retrieves naturally. To date I have never had one that needed it but I am sure there are some that do.

Ezzy

[quailrunner]

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I guess I'm just old school.

[Tall Boy]

It does more than just teach "fetch", it teaches them that what you say goes, heck or high water. I don't do it to every dog, only those real hard headed and distracted ones. It just does something to them that makes them easier to deal with.

[birddogger]

It does more than just teach "fetch", it teaches them that what you say goes, heck or high water. I don't do it to every dog, only those real hard headed and distracted ones. It just does something to them that makes them easier to deal with.

This is what I have found also.
Charlie

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Trekmoor,
There are different thoughts on this subject for sure, however as a Grouse hunter and Grouse dog trainer, I want my dogs to instinctivley retrieve and we play train our pups at an early age to dog so, using several differnt techniques. FF however is a needed requirement with some dogs, especially if you play retrieving games with your dogs, labs, Chessies and such are FF training a lot. Some trainers/owners use this as a discipline tool establishing right away what is expected. In some dog breeds this is the way to go and works very well, however in some others it back fires, and the dog becomes resentful of the master completely destroying the companion hunting requirement, most Grouse hunters demand.
All this depends on the dog breed and its temperment, some people think all dog breeds can be trained in exactly the same manner, in reality there are a lot of wash outs when doing this, and lots of unhappy clients. However we do demand a high degree of instinctive retrieving ability in the dogs we supply our clients, there are lots of kennels that do not meet this particular requirement, the majority of their dogs do not naturally retrieve to the instinctive standard we demand. So for us Genetics plays a major roll when acquiring Grouse dog stock, no matter which breed is chosen.
RGD/Dave

[crackerd]

Bill, no surprise, the replies you've gotten are from birddog folks - and Ezzy's "wrong side of the pond" is almost a double entendre in that retrievers are force fetched for what goes on in the pond, i.e., handling on blind retrieves on the whole and water blinds in particular.

Force fetch has almost nothing to do with retrieving for retrievers, and everything to do with imposing one's will, through control, on what a dog does before and as it retrieves - blind retrieves. Handling programs - precision handling for field trials and the top level hunt tests - are all predicated on force fetch. You do not force fetch a retriever to get it to retrieve, you force fetch a retriever to get it to retrieve in the manner you need - which is being handled to a blind retrieve.

Of course, I would, and have force fetched any gundog - spaniel, versatile as well as retriever - because I expect them to handle, too. I expect them to retrieve as well - and that's well before they're force fetched.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Thanks for the answers folks.

So if the "average" guy , most people, do not compete in tests or trials there is no big problem with obtaining pups with plenty of retrieve instinct to take them through a "normal" shooting day without the need for F.F. ?

While I'm posting this I'd like to add that it is good to be able to ask questions about such things as F.F. and e- collars without being subjected to a barrage of completely non- reasoned arguments from some of the doggy folk over here !

I happen to use F.F. almost never and then only on dogs destined for the obedience ring and the e-collar I use very seldom too . As with most e-collar users in Britain I tend to use the collar only for sheep chasing problems or similar. It is good to have the freedom of choice in these things however. This will not last much longer in the U.K. The e- collar has already been banned in Wales and I don't think it will take long before Scotland and England follows Wales ..........

The politicians and law makers just go along with whichever group of people is the most numerous and do the most shouting regardless of common sense.
Sorry for the rant !

Bill T.

[gonehuntin']

Thanks for the answers folks.

So if the "average" guy , most people, do not compete in tests or trials there is no big problem with obtaining pups with plenty of retrieve instinct to take them through a "normal" shooting day without the need for F.F. ?

.

Absolutely not. The dogs today probably have far MORE retrieving instinct than the dogs of yesterday. It's merely a personal preference. If you trial, it's extra insurance.

[Ruffshooter]

Trekkmor:
I agree with some of what is said but, I think there is another reason in general for just hunting dogs. This is just a thought.

It takes less time to get reliable retrieves?
It takes less time to get neat clean retrieves?
It is easier to make a dog push through a difficult retrieve without giving up?
For some of us it lays a good ground work to work through our versiatile stuff.

As far as the trial folks, there is so little at times separting the quality of dogs that any little hicup can blow a championship opportunity, so try to eliminate those hicups, via FF.

I think most dogs still have natural retrieving instincts, but with todays world time limitaitons and lack of birds: you name it this is the "easiest" way to get a dog to do what you want quicker.

I would for one love to have one like your self, write up a post of pamphlet of building that natural retrieve desire from puppy to finished gun dog. All the drill and such for the complicated retrieves.

[labman21]

I am still quite new to the training world with only three years under my belt and only one dog has needed to be FF'd. I believe if the dog will do the job you ask it to do it's fine. Although I may FF my other dog as a safety blanket just so that we don't have any problems.

I think if you are happy with the way your dog or dog's retrieve, stick with it.

[EvanG]

I am still quite new to the training world with only three years under my belt and only one dog has needed to be FF'd. I believe if the dog will do the job you ask it to do it's fine. Although I may FF my other dog as a safety blanket just so that we don't have any problems.

I think if you are happy with the way your dog or dog's retrieve, stick with it.

That's an interesting take. In 35 years of training literally hundreds of gundogs and competition retrievers I've never met one that could not or would not be a better dog by having been force fetched. But I don't view FF as something used to fix a substandard dog, nor is it merely to assure a hand delievery.

The immense benefits of pressure conditioning, and the stable attitude it produces make it well worth doing for wany working dog. The improved and well controlled mouth habits are co-benefits.

EvanG

[ckirsch]

I'm far from an experienced trainer, but my perspective on ff has changed lately. I have a young pointer who has always shown plenty of natural retrieve, so my FF was limited to not dropping the bird once it was picked up, and delivering to hand. I never drove the dog to the pile, etc. This dog sailed through his NAVHDA UT test at a year and a half, and never let me down in the field, even to the point of water retrieves when the temp was hovering just above zero. I was completely content with his retrieving until I began working on blind retrieves in preparation for this fall's Invitational. At this point I'm confident that the dog understands what is being asked of him, but he has apparently grown a little weary of the retrieving work, and will occasionally balk on the send. Since he was never forced to the pile, I now have nothing to fall back on. I'm stuck trying to sweet-talk the dog into performing the blind, when it would be much easier on both of us if I were in a position to nick him with the collar when he balks, and send him immediately on his way.

On the other hand, playing the devil's advocate, I've seen dogs who have gone through intense FF training and now flag on point, look back over their shoulders, waiting to get fried for something, whereas my dog typically points and backs with a lot of style and intensity. I'm not sure how much of a correlation there is between the FF training and the lack of style, but I'm guessing it can be a factor. As much as I enjoy NAVHDA, and would love to put a VC on this dog, I probably value the style and intensity in the field more than an advanced water retrieve that I'll rarely, if ever, need.

At this point, I can see that the solid FF is likely mandatory for most competitive venues, or if you find yourself needing advanced retrieving skills when hunting. Short of that, it might not be necessary. There is probably another advantage to FF in that you typically end up with a more obedient dog, albeit at the possible cost of some style / enthusiasm.

Just my two cents' worth.....

[ckirsch]

I'm far from an experienced trainer, but my perspective on ff has changed lately. I have a young pointer who has always shown plenty of natural retrieve, so my FF was limited to not dropping the bird once it was picked up, and delivering to hand. I never drove the dog to the pile, etc. This dog sailed through his NAVHDA UT test at a year and a half, and never let me down in the field, even to the point of water retrieves when the temp was hovering just above zero. I was completely content with his retrieving until I began working on blind retrieves in preparation for this fall's Invitational. At this point I'm confident that the dog understands what is being asked of him, but he has apparently grown a little weary of the retrieving work, and will occasionally balk on the send. Since he was never forced to the pile, I now have nothing to fall back on. I'm stuck trying to sweet-talk the dog into performing the blind, when it would be much easier on both of us if I were in a position to nick him with the collar when he balks, and send him immediately on his way.

On the other hand, playing the devil's advocate, I've seen dogs who have gone through intense FF training and now flag on point, look back over their shoulders, waiting to get fried for something, whereas my dog typically points and backs with a lot of style and intensity. I'm not sure how much of a correlation there is between the FF training and the lack of style, but I'm guessing it can be a factor. As much as I enjoy NAVHDA, and would love to put a VC on this dog, I probably value the style and intensity in the field more than an advanced water retrieve that I'll rarely, if ever, need.

At this point, I can see that the solid FF is likely mandatory for most competitive venues, or if you find yourself needing advanced retrieving skills when hunting. Short of that, it might not be necessary. There is probably another advantage to FF in that you typically end up with a more obedient dog, albeit at the possible cost of some style / enthusiasm.

Just my two cents' worth.....

[daniel77]

I think that this is a very misunderstood area of training, and it may help a lot of folks who balk at FF to realize that nearly ALL of the reinforcement during the FF process is POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. Maybe nobody here had that confused, but the word "force" sure seems to give the wrong impression of what the process really is about. The exact same principles can be used in any other aspect of training, not just retrieving.

[snips]

Wow Howie...Nick for looking around? Seems like that would make a loose dog worse

[gonehuntin']

The dog that looks over his shoulder I would consider this a pop. When he looks over his shoulder nick with the e-collar they'll staighten out quickly and there will be no more looking back.

Not so sure about that advice. That goes against everything I know about collar use, and that's about 30 some years worth. The collar has to push or pull a dog to be effective. It PUSHES him to sit, it PULLs them here, PUSHES on back, PUSHES on kennel. I don't know how in the world you'd ever teach a dog not to move his head with a collar without making a neurotic wreck of him.

Training on back is entirely different. Back is a forceful, driving command and every time the dog slows or deviates, can be pushed back again. They have nothing in relationship to each other.

[gonehuntin']

Well I guess our 30 plus yrs. of using the e- collar on blinds differs . That's OK. Again, the dog is not being corrected for looking around he is being corrected for looking at me not looking around.

gonehuntin, Maybe some day we can train together and show each other our differance in aproaches. We both could learn something.

I'd love to train together sometime.

If the dog pops on a blind, I use the collar and drive him. If he moves a muscle on point, flags, looks at me, etc. I use my launchers and pop the bird. No danger of creating a blinker like this. I have found it also keeps young dogs more intense on where the bird is. Many times I'll have three launchers on one station, and pop the birds a half a minute or so apart so that the dog is always expecting more than one bird. It is the best way I know of to prevent the head swing.

[gonehuntin']

I guess what I'm not quite following is how WHEN A DOG IS ON POINT and looks over his shoulder, you consider it a "pop"?

I would think if you hit him with the collar at this point, you'd drive him off the point and onto the bird. That's what I don't quite understand about your method. I sure am always willing to learn a new technique though.