Vizsla Not Pointing Birds

[penrod]

This is my first hunting dog that I have owned. I have hunted with a lot of other dogs, but this is the first Vizsla. She is 10 months old, and went to a month long hunting camp at 7 months. She did ok the couple times I watched her with the trainer. She never really hit a hard point.

I took her out this morning and she was very birdy, has a lot of drive to find birds, but she ended up getting way too close and flushed a few birds with no point. I put a check cord on her, and tried to slow her down, and she did a half of a point. Her tail was wagging the whole time.

She retrieves very well. I throw a baseball with her almost everyday to wear her out. She will even hard point the baseball, but never a bird. Do you guys think playing fetch with the baseball could be a bad idea? She will do a great point, but never on a bird.

What would be the best way to train her to not run up on the birds? I'm using planted birds right now. I read in another post and it seems like most people like the bird throwers. Also, for a younger dog is it best to work them by themselves?

[jlp8cornell]

I have a similar issue and have been working with pigeons in launchers.

[bwjohn]

Has she caught a lot of birds in training?


Did she every really point, when she was younger at a camp or at any time?


Brandon

[rkelly]

I would hold off on the pen raised birds for now and get her out this fall into an area with a lot of wild birds. I had this issue with my first shorthair. One day on the praires of ND with multiple bird contacts she starting staunchly pointing and never quit.

[penrod]

rkelly - Unfortunately, pen raided birds are about the best that I can do right now. I live in Texas, and most wild quail have left our area. I will be taking her to Kansas, but that will probably be once a month visit.

bwjohn - I have not seen her catch any birds. I saw her point at camp, but I have never seen her hit a staunch point on a bird. She was either doing a sitting point or she would have her tail wagging while she was pointing.

tcjack - My trainer was wanting me to wait till next year to whoa break her. I might have to get her started earlier though. She trains a "whoop" and "whoa," and I was hoping to let her do that so I did not create any bad habits that the trainer will have to break.

jlp8cornell - I think a bird launcher would be good for my dog. She does very well finding birds, and can retrieve extremely well.

Just wanted to thank everyone for their feedback. I am new to training, and all the advice is very helpful for myself and the dog. I think I will give a go at trainer her "whoa" and she how she does with a bird launcher. Do you guys suggest an electronic launcher over a manual? I have a feeling that my dog will catch on to the fact that a person will be standing close to the launcher, and she will start head toward the person instead of trying to find the bird.

Would I be alright buying just one launcher, and placing it 3 different times?

Thanks again for all the help.

[wwindus]

You might try working the dog in the back yard using a choke chain with a check cord and have another person working a bird wing on a fishing pole. Have the person with the bird wing drop it on the ground and as the dog approaches it, you give a tug on the check cord when the dog gets about 3 to 4 feet from the wing. I would not say anything to the dog, let him understand using the check cord and choke chain that he is to stay about 3 feet from the wing. Have the wing handler then drag the wing for 6 to 8 inches to tease the dog while you keep the dog steady with the check cord. The dog should get the idea fairly quickly. Then do the same in the field with a planted bird to reinforce the back yard training. You should end up with a steady point and a new Junior Hunter title.

[jlp8cornell]

Do you guys suggest an electronic launcher over a manual?

I would get electronic launchers and 2-3 of them if you can, especially if you train alone. This is what I use at a friend's house:
http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Bird-La ... ncher.html

I think you can program the remote for 4 launchers....

[M1Tanker]

Wild birds if you can, would go a long way.

I would agree with the trainer...better to wait and take it out of em, rather than try to put it back in them.

[snips]

Remote launchers would be good to pop some birds on her. V's can mature very slowely, so I would not get in any hurry at all, and would not think of Whoa breaking at this point... Good flying quail and a CC without saying anything would be good too. Why would she point a baseball?

[penrod]

I plan on buying a couple bird launchers to try them out on her. I will leave the whoa breaking for my trainer next year, and I'll work on my patience this year.

I'll report back to this thread within the next couple weeks to see how she is progressing with the bird launchers.

[snips]

Be very careful not to scare her. Pop them at a distance and not up close. I will let them get close to the first one if they are not pointing yet and lean over and gently release the bird with my hand where the pup can almost grab it, then let them chase. You can jugde from their reaction to the bird how bold they are, but it can also build prey drive for the pigeons.

[BrittGSP818]

Penrod, Its never too early to teach your dog to do something. I have a 5 month old britt/gsp pup that does great on whoa, and is pretty good on steady to wing and shot. Was out training with him yesterday (his second time out) and he held the flush a couple times on his own. What I am saying is he is 5 months and he is doing things that most would say to hold off on. The only reason I whoa broke him and began steady to wing and shot was because I knew he can do it. So, try whoa training with your pup, if you think its not working then it is too early. Stop and try later. You may also want to change the birds you are using. I have found that some dogs just dog care about pigeons, so try chukar or quail, give the pup some variety and see what she does. Also, the launcher will be your best friend. If you see her get birdy but she is getting too close to the launcher, just launch the bird. This will teach her that her getting close is causing the bird to fly away. Eventually she will realize she needs to point. Hope this helps.

George

[tailcrackin]

You wanna watch or be careful on what you do, and how you do things with a young dog........exspecially a young viz. They will not forgive, or forget.
Traps and non pointing might work, but wont allow the dog to learn its way. Will usually fall apart later down the road. Whoaing could cause it to fold up, so be careful. A dog will always read your eyes, voice, and touch.....always........wether or not postively or negatively, it will read it and act accordingly. Viz are very fun and smart dogs. My honest opinion, is check cord, and free flying pigeons. There was a post in training prior, about month or so ago, with a person out of Texas I believe, that had a dog that was having same issues, read my posts an explaining to him, if you'd like to pm and discuss, would be happy to, or we can pass numbers an I would be happy to call, how ever you'd like to do it, ok?

The topic I mentioned is on page two, prairiebuster started it Won't stop/hold point Thanks Jonesy

[Ruffshooter]

When using any launcher, have the dog on a check cord and you holding it, for the first 5 or 6 times or so.
Bring the dog cross wind to the launcher at about 10 to 20 yards away.
Have flagging or orange yarn or something so you know exactly where the launcher is.
When bringing your dog in cross wind from 10 yards or so away, you will see the dog turn and go towards the scent (launcher) If he does not stop with in a couple steps of you knowing for sure he smelled the bird, pop the bird.
Eventually your dog will stop on the first scent then will move on the bird. (this is a steadiness issue at this point not a pointing problem, the stop was the point) When the dog moves from its point towards the bird imediately pop the bird.
(This way the dog thinks it caused the bird to leave.)

Keep doing it, don't say anything. Your dog will be pointing and holding at least till the flush after a while. Then you can work on real steadiness and whoa training. Wild birds will help immensely. but this will get her in the right direction.

One of my GSP is a crowder, I need to do this drill before each trial and grouse season to make her give me some distance from her to the bird.

Rick

[tailcrackin]

When bringing your dog in cross wind from 10 yards or so away, you will see the dog turn and go towards the scent (launcher) If he does not stop with in a couple steps of you knowing for sure he smelled the bird, pop the bird.

This changes the tables on the dog, and makes it man made....why I say, is when your working the non pointing issue, your timing will not be precise, and the dog knows that it can charge, or spin, or do whatever it wants on the way in to the bird, even when or if your timing is close, it wont be close enough for the dog to learn it caused the bird to fly.
When you have this style of issue, it is about playing after the flush, meaning running and chasing. the dog says why point?? I can run and chase this son of a gun, clear to next county if I want. if you will use wild caught pigeons, preferably, becuase they have not been messed with by man, not watered or fed, so they will not take dog or people pressure. Homers are ok, but sometimes will put up with more from dog and man. You set the dog up, to scent or even see it.....you give him enough cord to bump the bird himself, but keep a hold of things and do not allow forward movement twards the chase. It will go sideways, backwards, it will try and do several things to see what or try an get away from the checkcord. Do not walk forwards at all. That is exactly what he/she wants, once the scene calms down, go up and tap or pet and walk complete opposite way from where the bird was or flew. This will change the dogs thinking table. It saw the bird, or smelled it, it was given the oppertunity to do what IT wanted. IT the dog, chose to put it up, so we allowed it, and didnt allow the chase. So we changed the dogs oppertunity to do completely what IT wanted. So, now the option allowed, is your reaction, to what you want to do with the bird. When they start realizing that they dont get to chase anymore.......[for now] they wil start pointing. It is all layed on the dog and what it wants to, and how it wants to. There are not any added gimmicks or man made items to obstruct the dogs way of learning. This make sense, not contradicting you ruffshooter, but the dogs doing things different than its ready for, with the traps and steadying this proper yet, I feel. Vizslas can be real odd balls, this way works with them, along with all breeds. Its the dogs decision what and how to do. Kinda like handing them a deck of cards, and asking what are we gonna play.....its your decision dog, its your deal. That make sense? Thanks Jonesy

[Ruffshooter]

Jonesy: I have all the respect in the world for your advise and I am way below your skill and exeperience level.

I did say have the dog on a check cord. I know there is more to your rejection of what I say but, It has worked for me on numerous occasions. I do not think it is the final way only way but it is a controlled way to get a dog to teach it self to point, but it puts the thought in their mind that they caused the bird to go. ( I did also fail to say have good flying birds, I like chuckars but they are expensive.) I do not let the dog chase in this type instance. Wild caught pigeons are a controlled way to make a similar thing happen. (I have not used wild pigeons so I do not know how jumpy they are but I do not want my dogs crowding. ) (Ruff Grouse hunter you know) With any of this and any other training reading the dog and understanding what that dogs body language just told you is key. And timing needs to be pretty good. It is not to be used for weeks on end in this manner.
The launcher not perfect but gets the dog thinking What just happened, why did the bird leave? IMHO.

Thanks, Jonesy. I do understand what you say and agree with your method, (Obviously). There is nothing to dipute there.
Rick

[tailcrackin]

No sir, no sir, you are just as equal as me, I dont want this particular dog doing anything negative, the crowding and stuff can be worked on later. The traps used while not pointing, wont allow the dog to learn that its all his fault. The crowding and that stuff is later in the program. Please dont ever put yourself, below me, that is bull in my book, everyone, and every dog teaches me something everyday. Dont ever feel I am higher, I wont accept that sort of comment. Vizslas can be alot of fun, and are alot of fun. They make pros an amatuers change their ways of doing things, that why most wont work them. They are the type of dog that teach and make you a dog man/woman. Thanks Jonesy

[snips]

I am still trying to figure why she is pointing a baseball

[penrod]

About the baseball...

I play fetch with her everyday at a local park where she can run off lease and I can work on some basic obedience. The baseball is her favorite toy. When I hold the ball up as I am getting ready to throw it she will go into a staunch point until I release the ball. If I were to hold the baseball for a few minutes she would probably hold a point on the baseball till I threw the ball.

When hunting birds I think she may associate the bird with the baseball. Her thought process could be, find the bird and pick it up and return it to my owner.

Thanks again to everyone that has responded in this thread. The great thing about hunting is people are always willing to help others out.

[Ruffshooter]

I appreciate your words & Thoughts.
I understand what you are saying about the crowding.
I am still trying to figure why she is pointing a baseball. If I point it will be. Be what I do not know.
Rick

[snips]

OK, it sounded like she was pointing on the ground..Too many people use scents and junk that can lead to all kinds of pointing issues on game...I would not really call this pointing as much as intense anticipation:)

[Vman]

but she ended up getting way too close and flushed a few birds with no point. I put a check cord on her, and tried to slow her down, and she did a half of a point. Her tail was wagging the whole time.

Penrod, were the birds that the trainer and you using in short grass where she could see them? Many times dogs creep to get a peak at the bird. This can be caused by too much sight pointing at a young age. The flagging tells me she is probably seeing the bird. Am I right?
You can do the launchers if you want, they will help your situation but they are expensive. For the same amount of money you could go hunt wild birds and come home with a bird dog. The birds will teach the pup everything she needs to know about manners in the presence of game.

[V-John]

Pen,

Where did you get your V? Who are the parents? More of curiousity more then anything.
V's can be a dang trick to train. What works for one doesn't really work for the other one. And Jonesy (tailcrackin) is spot on. They have a memory like an ex-wife. You don't want put too much pressure on them and then realize you made a mistake. If I were you, I'd call Jonesy and talk it through with him. He's a good dude and a good trainer.

[penrod]

I got the dog from Cayenne Vizslas.

Sir - BISS DC AFC Remek's Red Storm Rising

Dame - Ch. Kristar's Rebel Yell, JH

I found some pigeons to work with her, so I am going to take some advise from Jonesy and see how she does after this weekend. If I am still having problems I will definitely have to call Jonesy and take him up on his offer.

[Birddogz]

Launchers for a month. No retrieving during the process. Shoot the birds that she handles properly and do not shoot the ones that she does not. She will catch on, and usually dogs point wild birds harder than pen raised. Good luck.

[V-John]

I know the sire, he's a nice dog, they live not too far from me and am in the same Vizsla club.

[tailcrackin]

Well, how'd things go? Thanks Jonesy

[jimbo&rooster]

Penrod, I was having similar problems to what you are having, and got the same basic advice from jonesy that he is giving you. I worked my pup on the check cord on some planted pigeons, and then moved on to using launchers after he was pointing the birds. I wont say that my pup is looking to win any FTs but I have taken a break from bird work and have been free running him (to fix other problems)and he is starting to point and hold wild birds...... your pup is young, give it some time and get your self some birds.....
Jim

[penrod]

I took her out this weekend and she did not point or find the first couple birds. I popped the birds around when she got within about 10 feet. She gets really excited when she sees them flying, but there was no wind and she was having a difficult time finding the birds at first. I let her chase and play with the third bird, and we ended the day with her pointing the bird after it was tired out. Then walking back to the truck she pointed the Johnny house. I think I'll try out some pigeons, she can chase the quail down too easily.

[snips]

I always use pigeons in launchers...

[Greg Jennings]

Not to worry. Your pup will do better finding birds as she gains experience.

[penrod]

Hey Snips, after you release the bird do you let the dog chase it or do you typically keep them on a CC?

[Sharon]

As Brenda reminded me, we are talking about a vizsla - not a setter, GSP etc. 7 months is very young/immature for a Vizsla. In this case you must plan your training according to your breed.

[blanked]

going back to your original post.... you said you took the dog out in the morning and she was very birdy but didnt point. you dont have wild birds where you live and at that time no launcher. what kind of birds were you talking about and where? if they are just dove or "bleep" birds in an open field i wouldnt worry about it.

one thing that i havent read but i feel is important is be sure your dog is not sight pointing or in your case sight bumping. be sure he does not see any birds your planting and only using his nose. i like letting young dogs chase birds. it builds up there desire to hunt and find birds. let this go on for a whole season . then worry about stop to flush after .

last thing is timing is very important when launching birds. being inexperienced and not knowing the signs that your dog has enterd the scent cone will just add more problems. one option around this is the higgins releaser. its designed to let the birds flush on there own when presured

[penrod]

blanked - I had planted some pen raised quail the first day.

My main concern for her not pointing was due to the fact that she just got back from a month at hunt camp. I think she went to early... I just need to be patient. I think she will figure it out soon enough.

[Vman]

Blanked I asked the question if the dog was seeing the birds but got no answer. I feel strongly she was.
If the dog is as birdy as you say, you will not have a problem if you just take the dog hunting and let the birds teach the dog manners. We are going into fall, not spring.
If you are bound and determined to buy tools, do as Blanked said and get a Higgins release and use pigeons. Problem is one is really not enough. I would suggest at least three and the cost with electronics will be in the ballpark of $750 and your dog still hasn`t hunted a wild bird. For $750 you can have a nice week of hunting wild birds and you will have a dog that learned more in that week of hunting than the dog could learn in a month of training on pen raised and you are less likely to create a problem that needs to be fixed later.
Launchers are typically used to FIX something that the dog learned from poor methods or poor birds. Avoid poor methods and birds and you will not need launchers. We were training dogs long before launchers came along.
Your dog really does not have a problem yet. It is a young dog that is learning to learn. Have you discused this with the trainer?
My guess is he will side with me.

We are only trying too help you out here, so don`t take any of this the wrong way.
You can either buy the launchers/Higgins/and electronics for approx. $750 and then go on a hunting trip for another $750 or so and have $1500 tied up or you can just take the pup hunting on wild birds for $750. Thats how a tight wad like myself would look at it.
Good Luck which ever road you choose.

[snips]

blanked - I had planted some pen raised quail the first day.

My main concern for her not pointing was due to the fact that she just got back from a month at hunt camp. I think she went to early... I just need to be patient. I think she will figure it out soon enough.

I think you are right:) About the patient part...Viz's mature very slowely...Personally I think great flying quail would work, but not seeing whats happening hard to say...There is a reason Viz people wait til they are closer to 2 to steady them.....

[Vman]

Viz's mature very slowely...Personally I think great flying quail would work, but not seeing whats happening hard to say...There is a reason Viz people wait til they are closer to 2 to steady them.....

Patience,,, Yes. The statement about Vs maturing slowly,,,,, a poorly bred dog of any breed takes more time and patience. It is not a Vizsla thing. I see it just as often in the German breeds. Sorry!
The trick with Vizslas are you need to be smarter than the dog.