help with everything!

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Nyless
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help with everything!

Post by Nyless » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:37 pm

hello! this is my first post on the forums but ive been reading them for several weeks if not longer now. I just wanted to say ive enjoyed this sight tremendously and am hoping i can get some advice from the 'experts' out there.

first of all a little history: I havent had a dog for several years. i have never owned a gun dog and my last dog was a border collie. my problem is that i now have a 11 week old yellow lab and i just dont think things are working out. i did do some extensive training with my collie, hand signles some frisbee tricks etc. nothing professional just alot of time at the park. i always got compliments on how well behaved and sweet my dog was, however i always thought she was a little to shy and submissive for my liking. i was really hoping this dog was going to be different. however i think im the one thats creating the shy dog, not that the dog is shy.

I think the problems are mostly on my end, human issues. the dogs sweet, seems intelligent, has shown good hunting drive, and all in all has been pretty wonderfull with one exception. The dog just doesnt seem that interested in me, and i dont feel like were bonding. the dog rarely comes when called, doesnt wag a tail or show any sort of interest in me. ive taken teh dog for walks, taken it to the park, ive taken it with me everywhere i can. short of letting it sleep in my bed i spend every minute i can with the dog. ive tried to lavish it with affection and fun but the dog just seems more interested in our other pom-chi puppy we got at the same time for my girlfriend. the big problems is the lack of interest in me is creating frustration on my part then i end up getting short with the dog because i get frustrated. which in turn i believe is leading to more bonding and trust issues.

ive read the staple of books by walters and ive done some research and reading as well. everywhere it talks about the bond, the trust, the desire to please etc. well how does one get that? the prescribed feeding and loving the dog dont seem to be working. have i already caused to many problems between me and the dog to ever have that sort of bond that im looking for? the dog sits, lays down, jumps up, jumps off, and will usually look at me if i ask her to with a tasty treat. however if i ask her to do it for me she just sits there or runs off. ive given her some corrections and ill be the first to admit that i have lost my cool with the dog for a few things that wernt really the dogs fault. a perfect example would be last night i was working on sit stay with whistle blow and then a whistle recall and the dog was doing awesome (she was actually jumping into my arms on the recall.) the problem was about the 3rd or 4th series my girlfriend let her dog down and the dog came running in just as i was asking my dog to sit. she then had the nerve after my dog bolted after the 'rat dog' to say well i thought the distraction would help. i got so pissed off at my girlferiend that i ended up jerking the dog in like a 50lb salmon. i felt bad afterwards but it made me realize two things. i need to get some professional help training so i dont get so frustrated. the second is that i cant afford professional trainer to work with me.

i dont want to ruin the dog anymore then i have, if i have. i also dont want to be the kind of guy that overbears his dog creating another shy submissive dog. it seems some problem like this crops up way to often and i always seem to lose my temper. however i do have to admit that right after getting the dog we have had several family issues come up mainly with my parents health and or our personal finanaces which have caused additional stress to our household. i guess bottom line is i feel like i should get rid of the dog, seek some professional training for me when i can financially, and wait to get another puppy and give it another go round when things are a little better emotionally for myself. problem is everyone is attatched to thh dog and even talking about getting rid of the dog is creating issues with the kids and girlfriend. the dog isnt being beat or anything, i just cant seem to help with getting frustrated and giving the dog over exuberant corrections, just so that i feel better. i know this cant be the way to train a confident, bonded dog.

what should i do? is there any hope to salvaging the relationship with the dog? am i right in thinking to get rid of the dog realizing i dont have the patience and personal training at the moment to train a true gun dog? i didnt really want a family pet, i wanted a hunting buddy and a working gun dog. i really thought this was going to be alot easier now that id raised kids and was older.

any advice would be appreciated.

--Nyles

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snips
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Re: help with everything!

Post by snips » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:16 pm

At 11 weeks I think you are asking way too much..Dogs can retain obedience much better at an older age, that said......You need to practice some real patience. At least you recognize the problem, now it is time to fix it. Do not throw away a perfectly good dog because you cannot control yourself. Work at patience, your girl and pup will like you better :D
brenda

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AzDoggin
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Re: help with everything!

Post by AzDoggin » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:48 pm

In human years, your dog is the equivalent of a year and a half old baby.

I agree with snips, you expect way too much way too soon.

Your honesty is a huge asset. When you say:
it seems some problem like this crops up way to often and i always seem to lose my temper
you may be onto something. Possible that you have too much going on right now to raise a pup?

Read this article about what pups need: http://www.nesr.info/images-english-she ... rticle.pdf

It's no crime to honestly evaluate what your time and patience are, and decide to rehome a dog for the benefit of the dog.

On the other hand, no, it's not too late either. You can adjust your training methods at any time in a dog's life and improve your results.

In your example of your teaching session - you and the dog were doing GREAT. Once a distraction was introduced, the pup's reaction was normal - that's what pups do with distractions. Your reaction to the pup's action (and your girllfriends, for that matter) was disproportionate and way too harsh.

There have been times in my life when raising a puppy is the last thing I needed to be doing. I can't say if that's where you are, but I'd at least say a long look in the mirror is necessary.

Good luck, and good for you for reaching out for some opinions.

1114
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Re: help with everything!

Post by 1114 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:08 pm

snips wrote:At 11 weeks I think you are asking way too much..Dogs can retain obedience much better at an older age, that said......You need to practice some real patience. At least you recognize the problem, now it is time to fix it. Do not throw away a perfectly good dog because you cannot control yourself. Work at patience, your girl and pup will like you better :D
It's not too late at all. But Brenda is exactly right. That's a lot of pressure for a pup of that age. It's hard to infer tone on a message board, but you sound overwhelmed. That said, you DO sound committed to having a well-behaved dog, which is a good sign. Look for opportunities to set the pup up to succeed (an example is the training session you referenced; take the pup into a distraction-free environment where there's no chance of a distraction and/or you losing your temper), it'll help you bond and boost his/her confidence. Two puppies at once is tough, they tend to bond to one another more than with their human counterparts, so you really have to focus on spending time with them individually. Finally, I don't pretend to know your whole situation, you're the only one that can decide if you have enough time/patience to raise a dog at this point in your life (and have a happy, well-adjusted dog, girlfriend and kids). As an amateur trainer myself with a 5-1/2 month old GSP (I had a Lab before), I know firsthand how tough the first year is. Definitely doable, but you really have to relax, keep the sessions short, FUN and always end on a high note. Let the puppy be a puppy, you have years to work out the kinks.

Nyless
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Re: help with everything!

Post by Nyless » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:30 pm

thank you for the replys.

yes the last few days have made me really sit down and think weather or not this was a good choice now that these other factors have came up. the whole reason i wanted a dog was that i had time, and having raised kids i was sure i was a more patient person. however alot of my 'impatience' comes from other people in the house. ive repeatedly asked my girlfriend to keep her dog with her in a different part of the yard or on a leash when i work with my dog but she doesnt. i try and extend her the same courtesy i ask for when she works with her dog and will often kennel or take my dog inside with me so that her and her dog can work in peace. the incident yesterday was just an example of the frustration. ive asked her to read the same books im reading so she understands where im coming from and so far has refused.

ultimately i know the temper, and harsh corrections are my problems not the dogs. its the main reason i was thinking of getting rid of the dog. i didnt ask for the sudden financial problems or the unexpected health problems of my mother to all hapen 3 weeks after bringing home fido but it did. right now i just feel frustrated that after 3 weeks with 'Mac' (the lab) that she only seems interested in the other dog. the other dog, on the other hand wants to go everywhere with me, follows me everywhere, climbs into the boat with me etc. however all ive done is tried to ignore the rat dog (i mean im nice to it, but ive been doing it more out of courtesy so my girlfriend has a chance to bond with the dog, it just seems to be bonding to me because of the care i provide for it.) so when i look at the pom-chi and see her intense desire to be with me i cant help but wonder why 'my' dog isnt doing the same thing. which in turn leads to frustration. especially since ive really tried to lavish the dog with excercise, attention, and affection.

i think ultimately it was a mistake to get 2 dogs at the same time, but i cant ask my girlfriend to get rid of her dog so the only option seems to be either to find a way to fix the bond so im happy, or get rid of the dog and try again later when we no longer have the pom-chi.

the training part usually alwaus go fine. we have short sessions about 1 time a day and for the most part theres not problems during the training. the problems always seem to just be during day to day stuff living with dogs. like trying to keep the dogs from playing rough so the smaller dog doesnt get hurt. am i not to expect any sort of obedience from the dog at this age? at some point and time when does no mean no and enough mean enough? do puppies just never hear those words? when do i start doing corrections then? is reaching down and grabbing the dog by the collar to much when youve told the dog 10x enough?

every friends told me the dogs young, and i realize that. im not upset over training progress or anything for the most part im tickled with where shes at. im just upset that she doesnt seem that interested in bonding to me compated to the other dog (both dogs are the exact same age and brought home at the same time) . does anyone have any tips for helping to create that bond?

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Kiki's Mom
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Re: help with everything!

Post by Kiki's Mom » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:08 pm

Your 11 week old baby needs all the pressure to STOP. The ONLY thing you should be doing with that pup is happy timing him, petting him, loving him up, feeding him and sticking to a steadfast routine so that he learns what to expect from you. Save the obedience training session for when he is older and can retain the lessons better. Of COURSE your pup is bonded better to the Pom-Chi. Raising two pups at once is difficult at best and they tend to bond one another before they bond to any one else.

The only thing your temper flare ups serve to do is concrete the idea in your pup's mind that you are unpredictable and un trustworthy.

If you want to keep the dog, seperate the pups and establish a schedule and routine with Mac. ( Example: breakfast at 7, leash time and happy time walk at 9, truck ride to the hardware store at 12, romp and ball play with the Pommie at 4, dinner at 6, tv snuggle time at 8, bed time at 9, last out at 11 etc....) PUPPIES need routine and structure in order to feel secure and learn to bond!! Are you crate training him?

If you don't want to keep the dog and think in your heart of hearts that you have made a mistake, place him in a loving home NOW before a irrevoccable pattern is set in.....
But Personally, from what I can read between the lines here is that you want to do what you can to make this work. You can do this....just gotta re-adjust your sails for the change in the wind and sail on. We are here for ya but you gotta slow down a bit and allow Mac the freedom to be a puppy for a while. The rest will come.

Feel free to ask more questions, get more advise and vent here...this what GDF is all about.

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Chukar12
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Re: help with everything!

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:15 pm

Way to Kiki's mom...

Nyless, tons of emotion going on that the pup can never understand, cannot bond with you because you are unpredictable and a really poor choice for the leader in the dog's eyes. If you follow Kiki's Moms advice you have a shot. If not do the puppy a favor and call a breed rescue group.

Good luck

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daniel77
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Re: help with everything!

Post by daniel77 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:47 pm

Any chance that you could keep the dog and get rid of the girlfriend and her puppy? :mrgreen:

Sorry, but things were getting awfully heavy around here...
Two cannibals were eating a clown. One looks up at the other and says, "Does this taste funny to you?"

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AzDoggin
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Re: help with everything!

Post by AzDoggin » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:48 pm

daniel77 wrote:Any chance that you could keep the dog and get rid of the girlfriend and her puppy? :mrgreen:
Have to be cheaper! :wink: :D

Nyless
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Re: help with everything!

Post by Nyless » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:17 pm

Just wanted to let everyone know that things are going well with Mac. We took a few days off from training and went camping for 4 days while i grouse hunted and bear hunted. We had a fantastic time and she not only listend remarkably well, stuck around close always, but seemed to be a really good bonding experience for the both of us. I also started letting her have less time with the rat dog and have been taking her everywhere i can when i go out. The training has been going well and were keeping it simple and short still. I also got good news about my mother and it looks like shes going to fully recover from her stroke(s). Alot of anxiety was relieved with that news. All in all thanks for letting me vent as well as providing me with some positive advice. I can tell already this is a great internet forum and im looking forward to becoming more involved in the future as Mac's training continues.

attatched are a few pictures of Mac and our camping trip. enjoy.

Nyless

Image

Image

1114
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Re: help with everything!

Post by 1114 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:02 am

Nyless wrote:Just wanted to let everyone know that things are going well with Mac. We took a few days off from training and went camping for 4 days while i grouse hunted and bear hunted. We had a fantastic time and she not only listend remarkably well, stuck around close always, but seemed to be a really good bonding experience for the both of us. I also started letting her have less time with the rat dog and have been taking her everywhere i can when i go out. The training has been going well and were keeping it simple and short still. I also got good news about my mother and it looks like shes going to fully recover from her stroke(s). Alot of anxiety was relieved with that news. All in all thanks for letting me vent as well as providing me with some positive advice. I can tell already this is a great internet forum and im looking forward to becoming more involved in the future as Mac's training continues.

attatched are a few pictures of Mac and our camping trip. enjoy.

Nyless
Man, that's great to hear. Figured someone that would take the time to make an initial post like yours wasn't to the point of just walking away from the dog, glad you gave it some time and it sounds like it's working out. Keep it up...

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ArcticRetrievers
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Re: help with everything!

Post by ArcticRetrievers » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:04 am

Sounds like your doing good.

One thing to remember is to Play Train her...Make everything a Game for her, but the first steps to a command you are going to want later...Heck thats why we do Fun Bumpers, and "Use your nose" games...Keep It FUN!!!

Good Luck, and she is a Very Pretty Girl

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Tall Boy
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Re: help with everything!

Post by Tall Boy » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:03 pm

Never ever lose your temper with a dog, if you follow this rule then you will be succesful. An angry correction has a way of confusing a dog. Also, some dogs, usually very dominant ones, will be turned off by over zealous praising, I guess they see it as a sign of weakness or think they're higher in the pack than you. If you're younger brother told you to "SIT" or "COME HERE NOW" what would you do? A dog will only want to work for you if they respect you.

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