PLEASE HELP! my ep is driving me crazy!

[Elias]

my ep is now 1year and 4months and he is still not pointing! he is just flushin the birds directly, sometimes i feel he flush them while running i!ts not even like he is picking up their scence! and he is sometimes retrieving sometimes not...he catch the bird and run a bit with it then let it go or bring it to me! am really frustrated about this! can anyone help me?! am taking him everyday to the field to hunt wild quails!

[live4point]

Has the dog ever pointed a bird? I wouldn't let that dog ever have another bird in his mouth unless he had pointed it solid and you killed it over his point.Sounds like you are going to have to go back thru puppy stage with this dog,and work him on a rope on a pen raised bird.Until you get him solid on birds,you dont have a pointer,you have a flusher.

[birddog1968]

A check cord is your friend.....use it.

Take the dog completely off birds for awhile .......

[Elias]

so i dont take him hunting anymore?!?! i just redo the baby steps ?! pen raised birds and a cord?!?! thats it unless i have a solid point ?!!?
wut about when they say wild wild birds to point .....:S am lost now! this is my second dog, with the first i never had this issue!

[PntrRookie]

If the dog has never pointed a wild bird, yet he has retrieved, thus he was being rewarded (bird in mouth) for not pointing.

Will it click for him by not ever shooting anything he doesn't p0int? May not, so go back to the beginning and get him WHOA broke...checkcord, launchers, etc. THEN when he stands to the flush, shoot a bird for him...may take weeks, months, season, who knows.

[live4point]

so i dont take him hunting anymore?!?! i just redo the baby steps ?! pen raised birds and a cord?!?! thats it unless i have a solid point ?!!?
wut about when they say wild wild birds to point .....:S am lost now! this is my second dog, with the first i never had this issue!

Some people will tell you just let the dog go,and he will learn after a while he cant catch the birds and start pointing.That may work sometimes,but I wouldn't put up with that.If it did work,how many birds is it going to take?How many hunts will it screw up.If this flushing is let go,your dog may be very happy puttin up birds the rest of his life.Your dog isn't a puppy anymore,and shouldnt be putting the birds up.Do what you want,but if the dog was mine,I would have him solid before he ever hit wild birds again.

[live4point]

By the way-Again,has the dog ever pointed a bird,butterfly or anything?

[steingre]

I think the method in the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVD's might work for you- it will require that you have access to launchers and homing pigeons. Yard work, and field work with birds under controlled conditions until he's pointing and holding.

If you get him staunch this season, and he appears to be a "keeper"...then I would send him to a pro for force fetch training.

[Elias]

the dog still didnt point any wild bird! he pointed at pen raised birds twice and he used to always point at the feather attached to a cord!
now he is not even pointing the feather with the cord! and today i had a wild quail u planted it for him and told him to search for it he directly went to it and tried to flush it but he was on the long leach, he pointed it and he flushed it,i shot it for him, the quail went down alive and started running he followed it and took it in his mouth then he let it go and left! i dont get it anymore! could it be that he is jealous from my other dog?! it looks like he doesnt have the desire to hunt anymore.

[RayGubernat]

Elias -

It pointed twice and you let it off the checkcord??? What were you thinking???

Sounds like you have dug a pretty deep hole for this dog. However, it also sounds like the dog has plenty of desire, so you may well be able to salvage the dog...if you stop screwing it up by letting it catch birds and chase birds and bust in, and fail to point. You are apparently well on your way to creating a long range flushing dog.

Teach the dog what whoa means....not on birds, but in the yard. Teach the dog what it means to stop and stand and not move so much as a toenail...until you tell it to. When you can stop your dog from across the yard with a simple hand signal, then you are ready to proceed...with pigeons.

Yes that's right...no birds of any kind until the dog figures out it has to do it your way.

When you get the dog to whoa in the yard, give a holler and we can go over what to do next.

RayG

[Elias]

guys the dog stand still when i tell him! even if he flush a bird and he wants to run i call him and he stops directly! i am gona take him tomorrow on a leach and make him look for pen raised birds and we will c wut happens! the trainer here told me that he is getin bored because am taking him everyday for wild quails!
let me put it this way:
i want my dog to point:( can i take him with my older dog?!?! should i use the wing and the cord!??!?! or pigeons?! we dont have bird launchers in my country!!:S
guys one more thing: now i just threw him a dead quail, he didnt even go to retrieve it! he just smelled it and left!!

FORGOT TO mention: this started when i got my other dog to my home! before the EP was perfect in retrieving and full of energy, a week after i brought my other dog the problem appeared!

[birddog1968]

guys the dog stand still when i tell him! even if he flush a bird and he wants to run i call him and he stops directly! i am gona take him tomorrow on a leach and make him look for pen raised birds and we will c wut happens! the trainer here told me that he is getin bored because am taking him everyday for wild quails!
let me put it this way:
i want my dog to point:( can i take him with my older dog?!?! should i use the wing and the cord!??!?! or pigeons?! we dont have bird launchers in my country!!:S
guys one more thing: now i just threw him a dead quail, he didnt even go to retrieve it! he just smelled it and left!!

FORGOT TO mention: this started when i got my other dog to my home! before the EP was perfect in retrieving and full of energy, a week after i brought my other dog the problem appeared!

By your own description you have rewarded unwanted behavior by shooting bumped birds......

What country are you in?....that may make a difference in how we interpret your methods of training...

I would only work the young dog alone , you can make a simple launcher operated by foot from some scrap wire.

I think your way of doing things may be confusing this dog......which is why a good book or method to follow helps set things in stone in pups mind and
allows you to follow a method and be more consistent.

I'm not so eloquent with words so maybe Ray will chime in again and make things more clear or give you a better idea of how to proceed.

[birddogger]

Elias -

It pointed twice and you let it off the checkcord??? What were you thinking???

Sounds like you have dug a pretty deep hole for this dog. However, it also sounds like the dog has plenty of desire, so you may well be able to salvage the dog...if you stop screwing it up by letting it catch birds and chase birds and bust in, and fail to point. You are apparently well on your way to creating a long range flushing dog.

Teach the dog what whoa means....not on birds, but in the yard. Teach the dog what it means to stop and stand and not move so much as a toenail...until you tell it to. When you can stop your dog from across the yard with a simple hand signal, then you are ready to proceed...with pigeons.

Yes that's right...no birds of any kind until the dog figures out it has to do it your way.

When you get the dog to whoa in the yard, give a holler and we can go over what to do next.

RayG

While this was exactly my thoughts, I was trying to figure out how I wanted to put it into words and then read this post. I can never say it as good as Ray.

Good post,
Charlie

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Elias,
It sounds like you are a relatively inexperienced owner/trainer. Without actually seeing your dog work in the field or forest, we might be doing you more harm than good. However, work/train your dogs seperately, complete your yard work before you move to the field training. When you get to the field training, never shoot a bird the dog has bumped, and kill the 1st bird you shoot for you pup. A young trainer/owner should have another experienced trainer as his mentor, doing this work blind is real hard on both you and the dog. If you know an experienced owner/trainer ask him to help you with your dogs. Its nice to get advise here on the forum but its a lot better to have someone with massive experience standing right beside you, who can really see what is going on with your animal.
RGD/Dave

[QuailHollow]

guys the dog stand still when i tell him! even if he flush a bird and he wants to run i call him and he stops directly! i am gona take him tomorrow on a leach and make him look for pen raised birds and we will c wut happens! the trainer here told me that he is getin bored because am taking him everyday for wild quails!
let me put it this way:
i want my dog to point:( can i take him with my older dog?!?! should i use the wing and the cord!??!?! or pigeons?! we dont have bird launchers in my country!!:S
guys one more thing: now i just threw him a dead quail, he didnt even go to retrieve it! he just smelled it and left!!

FORGOT TO mention: this started when i got my other dog to my home! before the EP was perfect in retrieving and full of energy, a week after i brought my other dog the problem appeared!

Elias, take a deep breath. I think you are getting too emotional about this. Stop, gather yourself, and think about how to communicate to a dog what you want him to do. You don't need to get upset, just relax. I don't personally try to equate a dog training issue with a human emotion. I think that's a mistake. He is not jealous, he is a dog. You need to communicate with him as such.

[Elias]

Thanx for the help:)
well where i live we dont have trainers for hunting dogs! i wish we had! thats why am doing it myself. i live in lebanon.
i will work the dogs separetly and i will c how that goes... tomorrow am going wild quails huntings, ill take him with me on a leash and i ll wut will happen! hoping for the best!
one more question: why he doesnt seem intrested in the feather anymore or in the dead birds!!!? do u think there is no way to make him get exited about hunting anymore!?:(

[birddogger]

Elias, the fact that he is not interested in the wing on a string means nothing, and there is no reason to use it any way. It simply serves no purpose. Not being interested in a dead bird means nothing either. Some dogs just have no interest in a dead bird, for them it is time to find another live one. Just follow the advise you have been given, relax and be patient.

Good luck,
Charlie

[birddog1968]

You might try it the American way, for a little while....take a helper or a person to shoot with you so you can focus on the dog.

Flush the birds for him, until you get him holding his birds well. I might be wrong but he sounds like he may be confused
with the pointing and flushing and he's become bored, so he likes to bust the birds up himself without pointing.

[Elias]

it seems like he still dont know that he needs to point! it was my mistake coz i was shooting for him the birds he used to flush! today i took him he flushed 6 birds and i didnt shoot any, the he smelled a bird and started going real slow on it but still he did point and he flushed it but still he didnt point. ill c tomorrow how things will go! ill keep u guys updated. 2morrow am taking a friend with me so i can focus on the dog more!

[Elias]

took the dog today for a walk he half pointed a bird, i thinks he is begining to understand the concept.
for retrieving i have a question: whenever the dead bird is in a bush and u cannot see it, the dog take it out and throw it so i can c it, whenever the bird can be seen he doesnt touch it!

[RayGubernat]

Elias -

ONE THING AT A TIME!! PLEASE!!

Get the dog pointing reliably. Get the dog comfortable with what you want him to do in terms of pointing. That may take the rest of the season. Let it take whatever time it takes.

If you shoot a bird for the dog in the meantime....walk over and pick it up yourself. Let the dog stand there and watch yuou do it. The show the dog the bird tell him good dog, put the bird away, pat him and go find another one for him to point.

Step by step...you gotta crawl before you walk and walk before you run.

ONE THING AT A TIME!

RayG

[snips]

it seems like he still dont know that he needs to point! it was my mistake coz i was shooting for him the birds he used to flush! today i took him he flushed 6 birds and i didnt shoot any, the he smelled a bird and started going real slow on it but still he did point and he flushed it but still he didnt point. ill c tomorrow how things will go! ill keep u guys updated. 2morrow am taking a friend with me so i can focus on the dog more!

This pretty much sums it up...Most dogs that do not point are man made, not all, but most, IMO. Shooting birds that are flushed by your dog is teaching him that is what you want him to do.....Stay at the check cording, on this dog I would give him a little Whoa as he slows on the scent...He really needs to know what you want at this point, and helping him out for a bit will not hurt, since he thinks you WANT him to flush:) So when he stops to point, give him another little Whoa, let your friend flush...Then after bird flys take him a different direction to another bird, same thing. I would give him a Good boy when he comes off with you....

[Elias]

guys today the dog pointed 1 wild quails out of 10 quails i couldnt resist but to shoot it for him!! i am kinda happy but i know still there is a long road to go!
he didnt retrieve he took the bird and took off with it then he left it on the grass, but am happy he pointed. 2morrow am taking him also!
he flushed around 10 birds and i didnt shoot them for him so he pointed the quail, it wasnt a perfect point but it was good for a start.

[Elias]

guys its been 2 days my dog is pointing 90% of the pen raised birds and the feather attached to the cord, he is pointing with a raised palm also wich i really like.....still have the gaps in the retrieving....he carry the bird in his mouth and run with it then leave it in the field......
i didnt rehome my new dog, they are getin along just great and pointing together!

[mmduncan]

Ok listen here's the best advice you are gonna get.... BUY A BOOK and Read it!!! Follow whatever program you choose step by step! You have no idea what you are doing and by what I have read thus far you have no structured training. YOU CANT JUST TAKE A DOG AND HUNT IT UNTIL IT'S A GOOD GUN DOG!! You are gonna have to teach yourself so you can teach your dog. This is not a two day thing or even a few month ordeal you are never done training an upland dog or any dog for that matter. I didn't know anything about Lebanon before this thread, but now I know there is one confused as he!* dog in that country!

[displaced_texan]

Also, quit the whole "wing on a string" thing, that is really only good for pics when he's a pup.

[Elias]

okey ill stop the wing on a string....
i need help in the retrieve part no:(
can som1 help me!
the only book i found about training is a french book and i bought it to find that there is nothing really helpful in it!

[displaced_texan]

Worry about pointing for now, get him GOOD at that, then worry about retrieving.

If you want a book try looking on Amazon, IIRC they ship worldwide.