At this point..........Now what do I do??

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NeBrittany
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At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:04 pm

I received a phone call that I really wasn't anticipating.

Back in late March I had taken my French Brittany to a reputable trainer that was recommended to me by another GDF member.

As time progressed I would hear nothing but high marks on his progression.

But it seems he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.....At times he half way point on birds, but even then he don't hold a good point. When he does a half @ss point he won't hold very long then he's busting the bird. While other times he don't find the birds at all.

He seems to have no interest in retrieving either. I noticed that when he was a pup. He would go fetch the bumper and about half way back he was drop the bumper and go do something else. As if he had lost all interest in it.

At this point I really don't know what my options are with this dog, do I continue having the trainer work with him "hoping" that eventually, he will come out of his shell? Where do I draw the line, saying enough? Where do I say he just doesn't have the drive in him?

I had anticipations that he would be field ready by the time pheasant season come around, but it don't look like that's going to happen. :cry:
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

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AzDoggin
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:37 pm

How old is the dog? Been with the trainer 6 months, hearing about "good progress," now this?

I'd be disheartened as well.

Maybe it's not the dog, though. What does the trainer give as an explanation for the current state of affairs after giving your dog so many "high marks?"

Don't be so quick to make a judgment on a pup retreiving. It's not uncommon for 'em to drop whatever they're carrying. It doesn't mean anything about "drive" in the dog by itself.

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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by birddogger » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:28 pm

Don't be so quick to make a judgment on a pup retreiving. It's not uncommon for 'em to drop whatever they're carrying. It doesn't mean anything about "drive" in the dog by itself.
The training problem is one thing, but ditto on this statement.

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momen80
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by momen80 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:32 pm

i think u should do it ur self u dont need a trainer
the hole thing is repetition !so if u throw" whoa" on him and i assume he knows what is" whoa"and he breaks u should left him up and put him back! but let him establish point first then throw "whoa" if he breaks left him up set him back and again its repetition so eventually he is gonna get it
and i think u should force fitch him and every thing will be fine
again train him ur self !!!

NeBrittany
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:51 pm

The pup is two yrs old.

I worked with him on what I could since I'm in a fairly large metro area
That made me destroy my pigeon coop. So that was out of the question.

I know when I was working with him it seemed to me as if he didn't trust his scent .
Maybe it's not the dog, though. What does the trainer give as an explanation for the current state of affairs after giving your dog so many "high marks?"
I have that thought sitting in the back of my mind. Though not trying to let it bother me. The trainer is lost for answers him self.

I had tried one trainer in the area, and the man was great with dogs. I won't lie about that, but when it come to interacting with other people. He had a mean streak that wouldn't quit.

So that's when I took on training him on my own, till I got to the level where I couldn't progress any further. So I begin looking for some one that could take him further than I had the capabilities of doing. I found one trainer just a few miles south of town but as I was corresponding with them, they begin to show their true colors. Just as I was going to say I will accept your offer to train my dog. They told me they, no longer have any openings. How factual that was at that time, I find it hard to swallow.

So I started looking for a trainer that was familiar with working with Brits. That's when I recommended by another GDF member to whom I am using now.
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

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mmduncan
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by mmduncan » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:28 pm

As far as the retrieving goes sounds like FF is the next step but with the pointing and all that I have no idea I'm a retriever guy. Good Luck!
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kninebirddog
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:28 am

What method is trainer using?

Has the trainer tried the taking the chase out where after teaching a point of contact for stop and stand still dog bumps or causes bid to flush and then the dog is cued to stop after the bird is in the air...I personally do not like the pick up and set back on dogs learning as it can lead to dogs crouching and laying dog in anticipation of being picked up I see this quite often. As for dogs that know what they are supposed to do then Yes I will set back.

There are some dogs that will take longer because they are not buying in to what the trainer wants and they don't want to play by the rules...If not carefully handled this can quickly lead to dog that will blink birds

What I am a bit confused at is the great reports then all of a sudden to a poor report...JMHO this sounds like either you were being strung along as the trainer was hoping that things would turn out be fine by a certain time where you would never know about the dogs issues though I have seen a couple dogs over the years which just didn't have any point to them but when one runs into those rare occasions it is best to be honest with the owner from the start and allow the owner to decide how much money they want to dump into the dogs training
or the trainer has bored the dog and the field work is no fun or the method they are using just is not a method that the dog is understanding

Those are some things that come to mind
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AzDoggin
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:31 am

kninebirddog wrote:I have seen a couple dogs over the years which just didn't have any point to them but when one runs into those rare occasions it is best to be honest with the owner from the start and allow the owner to decide how much money they want to dump into the dogs training
or the trainer has bored the dog and the field work is no fun or the method they are using just is not a method that the dog is understanding
I think knine probably has it here. Seems to me that if the dog lacked drive, the trainer would have been more or less forced to tell you sooner, because otherwise it reflects on him. More likely is that the dog has LOST drive while in training...

Here's a section on page 8 from Training with Mo by Martha Greenlee. See if you think this might apply to your pup.
The best way to develop a pups desire to hunt and find birds is to bring out the predator in the pup. Maurice calls this the prey drive. The pup wants to get the bird and he wants to get it now. To develop prey drive, the pup is exposed to good flying birds in the field. As the pup chases and tries to catch them, he becomes bolder and more focused on them. Maurice explains: "Formal training can be very stressful for a dog because I take away his desire to chase and catch birds. I want to build him up as a pup before I start taking things away. Otherwise, I end up with a dog that quits in training. If his desire hasn't been built up, he may want to quit because training isn't fun. If I make a mistake, he'll have a hard time forgiving me. Alot of owners don't go far enough to develop prey drive. They begin formal training before their dogs are totally focused on birds. Their dogs arent' built up enough on birds so they are a lot harder to take to the next level and finish."

As the pups desire builds, his pointing instinct also develops. Every time the pup finds a good flying quail and chases it, he is learning to point. He is learning that his movements cause birds to fly and that he cannot catch them. He becomes more cautious and starts to stalk them, and eventually the stalk becomes a point.

NeBrittany
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:24 pm

After hearing that from the trainer, I sent an inquiry to the breeder who's suppose to be calling me some time either tonight or tomorrow night. Cause "in their words" "When we train a dog we accomplish what's needed in two months and then the dog needs to be hunted, instead of being "trained".

Though they are on the same track as Knine. They suspect that based on what I've told them, "That the dog is simply bored". Which after the breeder told me that, it makes logical sense. If some one stuck a pigeon in a launcher time and time again expecting me to point it. I personally would get tired of it. :roll:

By what I've been able to observe, he's never been hunted over. Which I could be wrong there, I don't know if the trainer has ever shot any birds over him.
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

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AzDoggin
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:15 pm

Great idea to call the breeder. I'd definitely ask them the "next step" question as well. My bet is that the answer will have something to do with getting the dog in as many wild birds as possible, as often as humanly possible this season, with a focus on experiences for the dog and not bag limit this year.

Keep us posted!

NeBrittany
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:46 pm

After talking with the breeder, I was told to get the dog out of there.... In their 40+ years of experience, for no reason what so ever, should it ever take as long as it has to train a dog. Plus a few other words, I would get banned, if I were to include them.:D

But in that same conversation, they suggested that the best thing I can do is take the dog hunting and see.
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

-George Washington-

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AzDoggin
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:30 pm

Not too complicated then.

Get your dog back.

Go hunting (repeat ad infinitum). :D

NeBrittany
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:35 pm

My only problem is, I've never hunted behind a dog before. :oops:
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by birddogger » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:00 pm

The best way to develop a pups desire to hunt and find birds is to bring out the predator in the pup. Maurice calls this the prey drive. The pup wants to get the bird and he wants to get it now. To develop prey drive, the pup is exposed to good flying birds in the field. As the pup chases and tries to catch them, he becomes bolder and more focused on them. Maurice explains: "Formal training can be very stressful for a dog because I take away his desire to chase and catch birds. I want to build him up as a pup before I start taking things away. Otherwise, I end up with a dog that quits in training. If his desire hasn't been built up, he may want to quit because training isn't fun. If I make a mistake, he'll have a hard time forgiving me. Alot of owners don't go far enough to develop prey drive. They begin formal training before their dogs are totally focused on birds. Their dogs arent' built up enough on birds so they are a lot harder to take to the next level and finish."

As the pups desire builds, his pointing instinct also develops. Every time the pup finds a good flying quail and chases it, he is learning to point. He is learning that his movements cause birds to fly and that he cannot catch them. He becomes more cautious and starts to stalk them, and eventually the stalk becomes a point. AzHusker
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Man did I love reading this!! This is the best advice that could be given for a pup or young dog!!

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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:42 pm

I wasn't going to get into this but really let's look deeper into this.... one trainer was mean to you, one lied to you you think and now this one has strung you along.... is it really the trainer s that are the problem?? You have had this dog for 2 years and it sounds as if you barely know him. Why have you not taken him hunting? Why do you not take time to go to the trainer and see what is going on with your dog?? No dog has ever been trained on a forum. I think you need to take responsibilty for where your dog is at and quit blaming everyone you come in contact with. Just saying...........
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NeBrittany
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Re: At this point..........Now what do I do??

Post by NeBrittany » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:59 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote: No dog has ever been trained on a forum.
No criticism intended to all the others here that have been helping when I needed it. Which I greatly appreciate.

But Rob, no one can learn from some one that can never back their own words. Where have you been all those times I could have used some "honest" guidance? You were one of those I turned to first!!

Why don't you admit it to the rest of the forum members, you referred me to a trainer that doesn't always take his Prozac! (JMO!) And I'm not the only one that feels that way about him.

I don't know who in heck pissed in your cheerios :roll:

You never bothered to offer your help then when I asked for it, as if your input is going to mean anything now ! :roll:

Just Saying..............

Though Rob, if you feel I am doing everything so wrong. Step up to the plate, and show me. Like I asked you from the beginning!
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence

-George Washington-

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