First time trainer

[GSPRubi]

Hey, I have a year old German Shorthair that I'm just starting to train. I would have liked to start earlier but I am just now getting the necessary resources together to train her right. I bought an E-collar and the George Hickox pointer training videos. I have homing pigeons and property to work on now so where do I begin? Rubi has been out on a few hunts with us and she has the natural want for birds. Her obedience is good in the field and i think she is ready for the first step to becoming a good pointer. So the question is... what is the first step?

[birddogger]

First off, welcome to the forum!!

A little more info is needed. You say she has a natural want for birds. What do you mean by that? Is she pointing birds? is she bumping and chasing or has she even come into contact with birds when you had her hunting? You say she is obedient in the field. Have you actually done obedience training [yard training], such as heel and whoa training? If not, I would advise finishing a yard training program before doing any serious training on birds. As far as the e-collar, make sure you take the time to learn how to condition and use it properly. I would have her wearing it now every time you have her out [with it turned off] so it becomes routine. Just remember, it can be one of the most valuable tools you have or it can ruin a dog. You have not been in a hurry up to this point and that is a big plus already. Patience and repetition will reap rewards later on. There are different methods for training pointing dogs and it sounds like you have chosen one. Stick with it and when you hit a snag, the members on here will be happy to help.

Good luck,
Charlie

[Chukar12]

i agree with Charlie,

A bit more information would help. Maybe you can clarify...

Obedience, does she come come when called?

Does she stay with you walking in the field? Preferably to the front?

Does she point birds at all or just chase them?

Has a gun ever been fired in her vicinity?

You have the Hickox video, he will show you a method for collar conditioning in the video, if I recollect it begins with a "kennel" command. Have you done anything with that?

It appears you are in So Ca. have you met any of the folks from your local GSP club?

Give some details and you will get tons of help right away, a year old dog in the fall is in everyone's wheel house...

good luck,

Joe

[GSPRubi]

She points birds and will hold point until I walk in front of her then she runs in which is something that can be corrected. Those are just birds in our yard however, she has not gotten into any birds in the field. I have done yard obedience training and she comes when called. She is e-collar conditioned and we're currently working on heel in the yard and she does decent so far. It's only been a week or so due to school but in the field she gets too distracted and doesn't heel very well. We haven't done any woah training yet. In the field she stays in front and has a nice pattern but tends to stray too far off. I don't want to correct her every 2 minutes saying to stay close but that's what is needed now. I am going to a relative's friend's house this weekend who trains field trial english pointers and he is going to help set me up with some pigeons and training tips. I just wanted some opinions on here so I could have different strategies to approach the training from and choose the one that best suits our needs.

[Chukar12]

Holding point will be a process and one that involves birds so be careful and go slow there. It sounds like you are getting some experienced help and that will be very important for the bird work.
Teaching heel and the ranging issue are yard work problems. Do you use a checkcord and pinch collar or a wonderlead (pigging string) to teach heel? If not, I would suggest that. These same tools can help you to teach a dog to stay close without having to call it back by using them to shape a dog's pattern that is in front of you.
for instance>>>put the checkcord on and let the dog move to the front when the dog is out there use the checkcord to change its direction always moving forward. You do this by turning away from the dog between 22 and 45 degrees ( a better way to describe this might be when the dog hits 10:00 change your direction to 2:00) and the checkcord pressure on the neck changes the dogs direction. Take it that way a bit and then switch back the other way. It takes some room to do this. Soon the dog will key off your direction and begin to change. When the dog is consistently doing this overlay a word or whistle command to change direction, such as hup...ho...rumplestiltskin...whatever. When the dog understands and complies at least 80% of the time you can switch to the e-collar and give the dog a nick for non-compliance to the command. This gives the dog a solution to its problem, it is supposed to change directions in front of you and you can control the range by "bending" the dogs run and not calling it back to you.

Go into this expecting that it will take up to three years for your dog to mature and your committment to training willl have to go that far and beyond before you can begin to believe that the dog will be reliable.

good hunting

[GSPRubi]

I have a pinch collar but have been just a short rope with a slip around her neck. I'll start on the pinch collar and hopefully that gets her attention a little more. This seems to be taking the longest out of all the other training she's had.

[Chukar12]

Keep in mind that many folks would argue whether heel is important and in some situations they will be right for them. However it sounds like your dog is going to be a foot hunting dog and getting control at a year is not a bad idea. Having a dog heel is about the "walk" and establishing the pace and position of the walk means a lot to the dog, a lot of your interaction and future training can be enhanced or harmed by how successful you are with that. When teaching heel again changing directions is important it forces the dog to key off your movements...you are leading. Keep the dogs head at your knee with the leverage of the leash and collar. If she get real obstinate use the lead to take her front feet off the ground and spin her all the way around and force her to stand with her head at the knee. Then begin the walk again. 15 minutes morning and night and a few days you will be seeing a bunch of progress I suspect.

[GSPRubi]

When do you use heel? I think it's a good command to have and there are situations where it could be good in everyday life but what about hunting? Also, can I be working with her on birds and different things in the field and then work with her on heel in the yard? Or should I stick to one command at a time?

[Chukar12]

I personally use it a lot, my dogs heel always when on leash and even when I am horseback, but there is an argument about it being too constrictive ... but with a foot hunting dog I don't think you will get that argument. It is a great tool around distractions in the filed, parking lot, etc... I think it is necessary in a hunting dog in the field.

You can work on more than one thing ... I hope this comes across clear, work on the behaviors before you overlay the commands. Follow your Hickox methodology it will keep you straight.

[GSPRubi]

Thanks for all the help. Another quick question though, how do I get her to pay more attention to me in the field? It seems that as soon as she is out of the kennel it's hard to get her to focus on me. Does training in the field help this? Or are there other approaches at home?

[Chukar12]

The yard work will help that immensely, and simply maturity and the time you spend with her. In your Hickox video he will discuss generalization, yard work doesn't just mean at home. You can and should go to the field without the thought of encountering game and do the same heel, come and "go with me" drills you work on in the yard.

Dogs don't reason as we do per se they are place oriented and they need to have training and discipline applied in enough different environments to recognize you as the leader no matter where you two may be. I hope that answers it...keep us up to date.

[GSPRubi]

Thank you for all the help. I look forward to putting these tips to work starting this weekend and I will definitely be back here with updates. Happy Hunting!

[BrittGSP818]

GSPRubi you have gotten some good tips here but I will add one more, go at the pace your dog sets. If you feel it is taking her some time to pick up a new command, slow down, and mix training sessions with fun time. This will keep her interested in trainging and keep her looking forward to them aswell. I do some training down avenue N, if I am not mistaken Quartz Hill should not be too far from there.

George

[ezzy333]

Thanks for all the help. Another quick question though, how do I get her to pay more attention to me in the field? It seems that as soon as she is out of the kennel it's hard to get her to focus on me. Does training in the field help this? Or are there other approaches at home?

I think you want her focused on finding the birds and not you. She does need to check where you are once in a while but it is your job to tell her when you are changing directions or speed. Remember, she knows more about where you are than you know about where she is. In other word it isn't the dog that get lost normally but rather it is you thinking she is lost.

Ezzy

[GSPRubi]

GSPRubi you have gotten some good tips here but I will add one more, go at the pace your dog sets. If you feel it is taking her some time to pick up a new command, slow down, and mix training sessions with fun time. This will keep her interested in trainging and keep her looking forward to them aswell. I do some training down avenue N, if I am not mistaken Quartz Hill should not be too far from there.

George

I'm very close to N. I'm on m6. Are you in the AV? Maybe we could meet up some time? I have 12.5 acres in Leona Valley that I'm going to use for training. Pigeons are coming sunday and I'm hopefully going to be planting some sort of wheat or barley so it's easy on Rubi's ears and nose while training.

[GSPRubi]

ok so i got some pigeons today and brought them home. I locked the wings as instructed in George Hickox's video and let my dog come into contact with the bird. It was a shock to see Rubi, who usually brings me dry leaves when I walk outside without puncturing them, try to pluck the bird and remove it's feathers. Is this a natural thing to do? I was glad to see that she was so intent on getting the bird and she wasn't afraid of it, but was surprised when she started doing that. I thought nothing of it and thought maybe its just cause it was her first bird in her mouth so I got a different bird to give that one a rest and tried to rubberband it's flight wings together like Hickox does but the band kept sliding off. By that time it was dark and I gave up. Does anyone have a different method to get a flightless pigeon that will flap its wings without causing any permanent damage? Tomorrow we use the birds and see how she reacts to a starter pistol.

[Chukar12]

it is perfectly normal. At a year old Rubi has shown a desire for birds you probably want to avoid letting her catch them. When Hickox shoes using a lock wing it is sometimes for small puppies but ususally for plant a bird outside a launcher for puproses related to scent, he will actually use a launcher behind the planted bird to fly away. What you need is to plant birds and let Rubi point them on scent and chase them as they fly away for a few sessions. You may want to get homing pigeons or find a place to trap ferals. There are pigeon racing clubs in so ca you may want to start there.

Do not encourage sight pointing or catching birds at this point...you want Rubi doing things with her nose.

[GSPRubi]

I'm planning on doing that this weekend. The pigeons I got are homing pigeons but they'll fly back to the guys house who owned them before if I let them go now. Hickox uses a piece of pvc pipe with a kite string attached to the bird so they'll flush but i can get them back. would that work for now? and i did the gun test with a .22 blank and she didn't even hesitate to the gun fire. the area i work in isn't big enough for a shotgun so i'll have to do that in a couple days.

[birddogger]

I was a little thrown off when I read about locking the wings and letting the dog have at it. I couldn't imagine anybody recommending that, but after reading chuckar12,s post, I now understand he was talking about young puppies and not a dog ready to be started or trained.

As far as tethering the pigeon so you can get it back is fine. However, I would keep a CC on the dog and let him chase but only to the end of the CC. Otherwise, he will end up catching the pigeon, which is what you want to avoid.

Charlie

[GSPRubi]

As far as tethering the pigeon so you can get it back is fine. However, I would keep a CC on the dog and let him chase but only to the end of the CC. Otherwise, he will end up catching the pigeon, which is what you want to avoid.

Charlie

That was my plan. how do i tie the bird? around both feet or just one? i've only handled birds for two days so i'm still learning whats ok and how easy or rough to handle them. any tips on that too?

[birddogger]

Around one foot will be fine. Don't worry too much about how you handle them. I don't think you will hurt them if that is what you mean.

Charlie

[GSPRubi]

Ok. thanks for the help. I'm sure i'll have more questions after our next training session

[GSPRubi]

ok i haven't been able to work with her again but i anticipate i will work with her tomorrow. my question is with teaching whoa. what are the best ways to do it? with birds or just in the yard first?

[birddogger]

ok i haven't been able to work with her again but i anticipate i will work with her tomorrow. my question is with teaching whoa. what are the best ways to do it? with birds or just in the yard first?

Whoa should always be part of the yard training. Never try to teach it around birds.

Charlie

[BrittGSP818]

ok i haven't been able to work with her again but i anticipate i will work with her tomorrow. my question is with teaching whoa. what are the best ways to do it? with birds or just in the yard first?

Whoa should always be part of the yard training. Never try to teach it around birds.

Charlie

Ditto!

I will be out this weekend for the openner, but wouldnt mind getting together sometime. I live in north hollywood so im about an hours drive. My pup is younger than yours (6 1/2 months) but I am sure he can will be able to keep up with yours. This will be is first season and first wild bird exposure, so we shall see how it goes.

George

[GSPRubi]

Good luck tomorrow! I'm going with a buddy but have to leave the dog at home. She's just not ready yet and I don't want her to pick up bad habits. I'd be happy to share my training property with you. I have 12.5 acres of field with homing pigeons in Leona Valley. Let me know when you would be able to meet and we'll get together.

[birddogger]

Having a training partner with some training knowledge is the best thing you can do, IMO.

[GSPRubi]

I went hunting today for the opener and did pretty good. Shot 10 birds but lost 2. I didn't take my dog because I'm not sure if she is ready. If I do take her what is the worst thing that can happen as far as her being turned off of birds? She has been around live pigeons and has had them flap her so she isn't bird shy. I did the right steps to make sure she isn't gun shy, she has basic obedience and listens to commands. Is there any reason I shouldn't take her next time?

[birddogger]

Nothing is going to happen to turn her off to birds. Relax and take her hunting, but only shoot birds that she points and holds until the flush. Wild birds will be great for her.

Charlie