Wet Dog Drops Birds

[buDDget hunter]

I have a 2 yo DD who is FFed. She is usually a great retriever however if she is retrieving out of water no matter what distance i am from the edge she brings the item (bird/bumper) back, drops it at my feet, shakes then picks it up and finishes the retrieve. On dry land she is great every time, comes to heel, and holds on until I tell her out. I have tried pinching her ear and commanding fetch when she drops it, and i have tried repeating the fetch command when she is coming in nothing seems to work. Any ideas?

[AzDoggin]

Sounds like you have a pretty good dog there and you're awfully close! Most hunters would be satisfied with a dog that brings game to their feet. Out of curiosity, I checked the NAVHDA rules - sounds like you're meeting the Utility Prep standard and working on Utility standards:

Utility Preparatory requirements - NAVHDA

The handler must stand back from the water’s edge so that the dog has to carry
the duck out of the water. The dog should pick the bird up and return it directly to
its handler, with a minimum of commands. For the UPT retrieve the dog should
bring the bird within reach of the handler to receive a (4), it does not have to bring
the bird to the hand. Although, in order to receive a passing score, the dog must
bring the bird within a reasonable distance and easily accessible to the handler.
The dog is expected to carry the bird, with a firm but gentle, balanced grip. A dog
that willfully mutilates the bird as to render it unfit for the table, can not receive
any prize. Refer to Chapter 6, Utility “Retrieve of Duck.”

Here is the Utility Test rule:

Because releasing the duck during the retrieve could invite the escape of a
cripple, the dog should not drop the duck while en route to the handler, unless it is
obvious that the hold is so insecure as to seriously impede the retrieve. In this
case, the dog is permitted to put the game down in order to secure a better hold,
provided it does so quickly, without loss of control and then immediately continues
the retrieve. Putting the game down merely to play or tussle with it must not be
confused with an intelligent effort to improve a tenuous hold. Shaking upon
emerging from the water should not be penalized unless the game is dropped in the
process. Upon arrival at the handler’s position, the dog should sit or stand quietly
close to the handler until commanded to release the duck to hand. Anticipating this
command or dropping the game must be penalized. A dog that willfully mutilates
the bird as to render it unfit for the table, cannot receive any prize.

source: http://www.navhda.org/testrule.pdf

I wonder if you had her heel with you a little as she comes out of the water, she would get the idea that she is to hang on to the bird? My bet is that she is doing what she thinks you want her to do, and once you are able to communicate that walking more with the bird is a GOOD thing, she'll catch on. Then, as you're walking just stop, have her come around and give or drop, whatever you are using. Be sure you are useing the same commands tone, timing, and body position/demeanor as on the dry land successful retreive. Sometimes us trainers start anticipating the mistake, and our tone reflects our lack of confidence, and gives a different message to the dog.

[rkelly]

I would overlay the FF program you used with the ecollar. Then use the collar as reinforcement of the fetch command if she drops the bird after exiting the water.

[buDDget hunter]

AZHusker, I am testing her in the VDD testing program at the VGP level, i dont know which level this compares to in the NAVHDA testing, but it is our highest level. She gets marked down for dropping the bird prior to my command. I like the walking away idea though, i will have to give that a try.
rkelly, i use an ecollar with her almost every time i take her out. She typically responds well to the stimulation. i have tried using it as an addition to the FF training, but it seems to be more of a hindrance. She drops whatever she has to attempt to bite at the collar, which sets us back another step. Rather than create more problems that need to be corrected i tend to avoid using the ecollar during during retrieves. Thank you both for your time and input.

[Don]

When she gets to you and drops the buck, kick it away immediately. do it everytime till she holds it for you. You could also back up before she drops it and take it while she's moving.

[AzDoggin]

AZHusker, I am testing her in the VDD testing program at the VGP level, i dont know which level this compares to in the NAVHDA testing, but it is our highest level. She gets marked down for dropping the bird prior to my command. I like the walking away idea though, i will have to give that a try.
rkelly, i use an ecollar with her almost every time i take her out. She typically responds well to the stimulation. i have tried using it as an addition to the FF training, but it seems to be more of a hindrance. She drops whatever she has to attempt to bite at the collar, which sets us back another step. Rather than create more problems that need to be corrected i tend to avoid using the ecollar during during retrieves. Thank you both for your time and input.

I think the two are pretty close - I didn't realize you were in the VDD test - I did'nt mean to confuse the issue.

You are so close - are you using fresh kills? It's possible that she might be a little more excited by a fresh bird compared to a dummy??? Heck, I almost wonder about using a live, wingwrapped duck - one from her water search - just to get a few successful reps and get her to see what you want.

Beautiful dog, btw, if that's her in your avatar. She's a looker.

[Georgia Boy]

Did you teach Hold in your FF process?

[gonehuntin']

Don't put up with half of a performance when you COULD get the whole thing. Close to you is NOT good enough. Wet or dry, the dog should retrieve to go and sit and hold or stand and hold until a different command is issued.

A dog will ALWAYS give you a cue as to what it is going to do next. In your case, the dog will come up to you, slow, and begin to lower it's head, then spit out the bird. WATCH THE DOG. As the dog approaches and begins to lower the head, INSTANTLY command "NO, HOLD!". Do NOT allow the dog to shake until after you take the bird. If the dog spits out the bird, get on that ear and command FETCH!, forcing the dog to pick up the bird.

Now back up and command heel to the dog, making it come to you, heel or stand, and hold the bird.

This is ALWAYS best done in a TRAINING environment, and NOT in the field. It is taught in training, REINFORCED only in the field.

[mountaindogs]

That is why I go ahead and teach "hold" when I do the conditioned retrieve. If you had a hold command firmly, you could command it right befoe the dog started to drop to shake. As I now read others have said.

Secondly, I'd train the dog not to shake until I said so. Assign a command to it when she does shake, hopefully without retrieving, so you have no other things being accidentally trained. Bath time works great. Hold her behind the head gently and repeat no or wait gently and then release your hand, say SHAKE! and praise her that she just shook water all over you :roll: but it was on command. Then get her wet again, and make her wait again, and then let her shake on command. and so on. This has the added benefit of you being able to train her to leave your side AFTER the retrieve to shake water away from you.

My lab leared it pretty easily, but I have not used my GSP with water enough to bother with it. I am working with a dog now though that will probably have to learn it. He is bad about dropping for many different reasons (before and conditioned retrieve training mind you...)

[ArcticRetrievers]

I have always worked this issue from the waters edge, yu start on a basic retrieve, and as they come out of the water command "hold", or whichever word is used, then make her heel up, and deliver to hand. slowly work away from the bank until you are a reasonalble distance off, and she is still obeying. After that I would drop the Verbal "hold" command.

if she backsteps so do you, but sounds like your getting there.

[Don]

That is why I go ahead and teach "hold" when I do the conditioned retrieve. If you had a hold command firmly, you could command it right befoe the dog started to drop to shake. As I now read others have said.

Secondly, I'd train the dog not to shake until I said so. Assign a command to it when she does shake, hopefully without retrieving, so you have no other things being accidentally trained. Bath time works great. Hold her behind the head gently and repeat no or wait gently and then release your hand, say SHAKE! and praise her that she just shook water all over you :roll: but it was on command. Then get her wet again, and make her wait again, and then let her shake on command. and so on. This has the added benefit of you being able to train her to leave your side AFTER the retrieve to shake water away from you.

My lab leared it pretty easily, but I have not used my GSP with water enough to bother with it. I am working with a dog now though that will probably have to learn it. He is bad about dropping for many different reasons (before and conditioned retrieve training mind you...)

I'm courious, what does "fetch" mean?

[birddogger]

I'm courious, what does "fetch" mean?

Don, I understand what you are asking, and some people use only one command during FF, and that is fetch. As you know, that command also means hold. I personally like to use the fetch and hold command. I had better success with my dog, using two different commands vs. using just the fetch command. I taught the hold command first and then fetch with the ear pinch. I then over layed both with the e-collar. I guess it is just a personal preference, because either method will work when done properly.

Charlie

[Don]

I'm courious, what does "fetch" mean?

Don, I understand what you are asking, and some people use only one command during FF, and that is fetch. As you know, that command also means hold. I personally like to use the fetch and hold command. I had better success with my dog, using two different commands vs. using just the fetch command. I taught the hold command first and then fetch with the ear pinch. I then over layed both with the e-collar. I guess it is just a personal preference, because either method will work when done properly.

Charlie

I know either way will work I just cannot understand the logic behind teaching a dog two words for one function. You appearently have taught your dog to hold. Throw a bumper across the yard and tell your dog to "hold" rather than "fetch". What would happen? Having never used any command other than fetch I really don't know what would happen.

In what the op asks simply telling the dog to fetch when it's getting ready to spit should do the same thing shouldn't it? His problem really is FF wasn't done as throughly as he may have though. So now it's either reinforce with the ear pinch when the dog spits or find another way to get the point home. I would suspect that teaching the dog to shake only on command would fix the problem if the dog really was properly FF'd. Doesn't sound like it was.

[crackerd]

I know either way will work I just cannot understand the logic behind teaching a dog two words for one function. You appearently have taught your dog to hold. Throw a bumper across the yard and tell your dog to "hold" rather than "fetch". What would happen? Having never used any command other than fetch I really don't know what would happen.

You might as well throw a bumper and command the dog to run an out route to the first down marker to get to it - for all the (ir)relevance it would have. Commands are associative with the act itself. I.e., "hold" for holding, not for "fetching" or retrieving. Retriever trainers start "hold" well in advance of force fetch, yet hold is 80 percent of force fetch. Why start, or even use, "Hold?" Because the dog's already holding an object when the command is first applied and as I said because it's an associative word, a pup (14-16 weeks old) learns that holding is good.

A dog's dropping a bumper at water's edge after exiting to shake may or may not be indicative of completed force fetch. Arctic's given a pretty good summary of how to correct it - and mountain's onto something with the "Shake!" command (shaking on command) - but it's a lot easier than described and needn't involve a hose nor touching your dog. It's one of the earliest commands competitive retrievers learn, because they are emptying their coat of water before being sent for a second, third or fourth bird, and they don't need to carry the additional water weight - nor to stop and shake just after leaving the line - not when they're en route to a mark that may be 350 yards out.

Back at the line, you take the bird from the dog then command shake - but neither you nor the dog step away and you aren't permitted (in competition) to touch your dog. All you do to avoid the backwash is wait until you've taken the bird from the dog and straightened your posture back upright before giving the command. Most duck hunters are wearing waders anyhow, so getting your legs splashed ain't going to hurt. Here you go:

Position yourself up close to the water's edge as the dog returns. Take the dummy (or duck) from the dog at your side, not in front of you. (Getting the dog to heel into the sit position at your side with a retrieve is also pretty easily come by - if trained.)

As soon as the dummy or duck's delivered, command "Shake!" - because the dog will have an inclination to do that anyhow. For another "signal," you can also simultaneously give the dog a wiggle of your hand that's not received the dummy or duck - a twitching like a senorita does with flamenco fan. Again, do this at the same time you're saying "shake!"

What's of import is getting the dummy off the dog before it has a chance to shake on its own after exiting the water - that's why you want, initially, to be almost up to the water's edge in teaching this. Soon, you can move back from the water and the dog will deliver and wait for the "Shake!" command or the twitch of your hand before unloading the water in its coat.

I can tell you it's very quickly kenned by a dog with your help and consistency in getting the dummy or duck from it before giving the command. If the dog beats you to it by shaking before you give the command, keep at it and give the dog another water retrieve. Doesn't have to be a long retrieve, just wet - you're not practicing retrieving, you're working on building a habit.

MG

[birddogger]

I'm courious, what does "fetch" mean?

Don, I understand what you are asking, and some people use only one command during FF, and that is fetch. As you know, that command also means hold. I personally like to use the fetch and hold command. I had better success with my dog, using two different commands vs. using just the fetch command. I taught the hold command first and then fetch with the ear pinch. I then over layed both with the e-collar. I guess it is just a personal preference, because either method will work when done properly.

Charlie

I know either way will work I just cannot understand the logic behind teaching a dog two words for one function. You appearently have taught your dog to hold. Throw a bumper across the yard and tell your dog to "hold" rather than "fetch". What would happen? Having never used any command other than fetch I really don't know what would happen.

In what the op asks simply telling the dog to fetch when it's getting ready to spit should do the same thing shouldn't it? His problem really is FF wasn't done as throughly as he may have though. So now it's either reinforce with the ear pinch when the dog spits or find another way to get the point home. I would suspect that teaching the dog to shake only on command would fix the problem if the dog really was properly FF'd. Doesn't sound like it was.

Don, you are absolutely right. I just taught the hold before the fetch with pressure. I am not disagreeing at all.

[mountaindogs]

"Fetch" is a chain of many different parts. Fetch means all the parts that make it up in order, every time. Much like "heel." "Sit" is part of "heel" but I need it seperatly also, so I teach sit inside of the chain of events that totals heel. "Finish" is also part of fetch for my lab in the field, but in obedience I don't want it automatically since she has to "front" first, and finish on command.
I understand your point. Your point is used regarding "stay" when teaching "sit" also. But for me "Hold" is it's own command, and I use it inside of the "fetch" chain. But if I wanted the dog to pick something up carry it to the table, set it down, and then return to me without it, that would involve hold but it would not be a "fetch." A dog should learn that fetch incluces hold, and you certainly shouldn't have to say it during a fetch, but it is there if you need to remind the dog a very precise error. Simply repeating fetch would have so many steps in the dogs head (the dog hears fetch and thinks --> go out, pick up, hold, carry, return... come to heel, hold, wait for "drop" and for advanced retrieves much more could also be going on) that it's much more challenging way to address a simple little dropping to shake problem. Do-able, but I prefer to have hold chained as a seperate with it's own label.

"Here" is also part of "fetch." And nearly every one here teaches and uses "here" or "come" seperately as well. Would you NOT train it because you already covered it inside the chain of fetch? Most likely you taught it first anyway. And still use it to remind the dog if it lags or veers when returning, even if that is part of fetch. Same thing to me, but I have trained both ways and I know it can be done. Just personally find that teaching a seperate hold gives me more options, for both problems solving, and for fun other commands.

[birddogger]

Well said mountaindogs. I am not disagreeing with the other point of view, but this is what works best for me.

Charlie