First hunt test

Brett D. · Post by **Brett D.** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:52 am

I am taking cody out on the first weekend of march to get his JH title. My breeder told me that all he has to do is point a bird 4 times and he gets the JH title.
It also says that they will just use a starting pistol over the dog in the JH trials. MY dog will give chase to the bird after its kicked up. Will this be a problem with the judges? I have been working with him twice a week when I am lucky enough to trap pigeons but I still can't the dog to stop whoa on command when a bird flushes.
Brett
OH yeah he's 14 months old.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:26 am

Brett,

Chasing is not a problem in JH. However, I don't want you to be confused. You have to qualify in 4 tests and not just point 4 birds in one. Then after JH you would have to qualify in 4 more to get the SH title. All your pup needs to do is handle reasonably, find and point a bird for at least 3 seconds and not be gun shy. It's basically just a natural ability test and requires very little training. Personally, I don't believe you should train at all for it.

Ezzy

Brett D. · Post by **Brett D.** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:29 pm

Ezzy, thanks for the info. I knew that it was one bird in 4 test. I just didn't write it that way in my message. It was late last night when I wrote that. HE shouldn't have any problem getting the JH. He'll hold a point forever. Unless I walk in front or behind him.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:09 pm

One of the problems I ran into with the JH is with tagging, playing, or aggression. Young dogs or ones that have not ran with alot of dogs especially ones of different breeds. I would try to run my dogs with alot of different dogs. I do not know anybody with a gordon then I got to run with one. My dog was freeked out and just started to bark at them or chase them. Hard to train for that. If your dog won't leave the other alone you will have to pick it up. I have never had to do that but it was close one time. I never really worry about the bird work it is the bracemate I worry about. I have had dogs in a SH run over and flush a bird that my dog was holding on point. A dog like this should not be out there in SH but there is no rule on who gets to compete. Remember the JH is nothing major just have fun and learn for the SH and MH. You will have to learn to handle the dog and the rules.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:14 pm

Ezzy is right.....there shouldn't be any training done for JH, look to train for the higher tests. IT is all what his parents gave him, except conditioning them to a gun shot.

At 14 months of age, depending on his breeding, your dog should be ready for some more training. Keep up the good work!!

Phil
REO

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:22 pm

It's basically just a natural ability test and requires very little training. Personally, I don't believe you should train at all for it.
I'm a AKC judge and this was an absurd comment!! A junior dog has to hunt cover ground and point long enough for the handler to get in to gun range. You put a dog up in front of me with no training and runs wild the whole brace your going to get your feelins hurt when I call time I don't care if that dog pointed 100 birds. you are judged for bird finding hunting trainability and pointing.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:32 pm

WOW GURU!

I think you need to judge more JH tests! The system needs more tough judges I think. Mainly what I have seen is exactly what you have described, and I been to one or two in the last 20 years! Too many conformation people getting the JH title, quitting there and claiming they have dual quaility dogs!

What was said wasn't written to clearly IMHO. What was meant by it was......you shouldn't train for the JH, instead train for the end result, a finished bird dog.

Phil
REO

Brett D. · Post by **Brett D.** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:13 pm

Thanks for all the input guys. I am training for the end result. Since I have never done this before it will be a good experience anyway I look at it. the Masters and seniors go first in the morning. So i will be able to watch them and get in some photographs for reference and the clubs newsletter.
OhioGSP, Are you saying that they run more than one dog in the field at a time? Thats good to know. I get my dog out with the other club members dogs or dogs beach about once a week. So he is socialized. But he has never hunted in the field with other dogs.
Brett

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:39 pm

Brent,

They run braces and its normal for puppies to want to chase and play before they settle down. Running with another dog will help normally.

Gundog guru,

I stand 100% behind my statement. It is a natural ability test and nothing more. I do think it might be wise to teach your puppy to come when called or to hunt in front of you as it grows up whether it ever sees a hunt test or not. It might be wise to shoot over your puppy too as it grows and learns. All of these things are what I think people do with a puppy as it grows and develops towards the goal of having a nice hunting dog.

If that is true, what else do I train for if I'm going to enter a JH hunt test? I know what I did with my first one, I went and watched my first ever hunt test one Saturday so I could see what they were and entered and run one the nesxt Saturday. The pup passed with flying colors and I or he had never set foot on a hunt test course before in our lives. What he showed that day was natural ability and that took no training what so ever. Did he ever fail? Sure did, once when we didnt find a bird in the bird field and once when he wanted to hunt at 200 yard range and i tried to bring him in closer. If I had let him alone the judge said he would have passed but when he didnt come in where I was tring to make him hunt he got a failing grade on trainability. Did he deserve it ? Maybe but I failed just as much as he did and I learned something.

My comment may be absurb to you, but it isn't to a dog that is being judged on natural ability and it isnt to what the test is supposed to prove. Training is the key to further testing I agree but not this one.

Ezzy

OldSchoolSpringer · Post by **OldSchoolSpringer** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:54 pm

I really dont understand HT below the mater level. The title JH and SH are worthless.
With a good Dog and some work JH/SH Should be easily obtained.

I had discusion today with someone and they where saying Spaniel HT were just so show dog people can say they have a sporting breed and novelty.I hear its pretty sad.

Guru unfortunetly I understand most judges are not as strict as yourself. Good for you
OSS

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:47 am

I have never tested but one of the things people tell me when you are tsting your dog is to just shut up and let the dog do its thing. without you using commands the less chance it will screw up. I totally agree with ezzy just let the pup run everyone fails once or twice.

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:26 am

This has been an interesting post for me to read. It got me to thinking about my own 9mo GSP. I will be vigorously training him this spring :headbang: . When I let him run with some of the dogs in the neighborhood, he loves to bump them, steal the bumpers, and just harass them

. It is playing and most of the time the dogs just play along or let him know to knock it off with a growl. So do I understand correctly that most dogs do this and that as they mature and learn about birds, this goes away? I am not worried about it but I thought I would get some opionions about when do you try to put an end to the bumping and folling around. Do most of you just let them out grow it. This is what I have been doing. Thanks

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:23 am

There is no test that is "worthless" if you choose to do it with your dog.

Post by **pear** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:32 am

OldSchoolSpringer wrote:I really dont understand HT below the mater level. The title JH and SH are worthless.
With a good Dog and some work JH/SH Should be easily obtained.

They key words are "some work"........Hunt Tests on any level are not worthless....'pear"

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:42 am

Yes, I feel every outing should be a sort of training, whether or not birds in volved or not, you can always work on teaching something, or keep what you taught in line. What I feel about the test are they are very good in alot of ways, first your dog is spending time with you in a totally different environement, its getting some handle and bird exposure, with other bells and whistles going on, that don't happen at home, getting to run with other dogs, and we as people get to meet more people that enjoy the dogs, as long as the judges are honest and your dog has done what is asked, there should be no problems. Good post Guru, all the buddy stuff will always be there, and it will always come out in the wash, we have to overlook the bull thats going on behind the closed doors, if your dog does exactly what is asked by either judge, there should be no problem, we and the dogs should always be learning, go and enjoy your self and the others around you, You can talk about the woulda and shouldas on the way home, just makes you prepair little better for the next one. I wish there were some here kinda close to home, I am in central Ky, and you cant even hardly find a retriever tests, sucks. Thanks Jonesy

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:50 am

Jonsey, there is a test at Munfordville the 8-9 of Apr. They always have a good one. I got a dog I may take up to this one if he decide he can back.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:23 am

Well that is not far at all, is the test bird dog or retrievers?? I have a clients Vizsla 5mo, running pretty good, doing well on birds, could have her ready by then, that a double header?? Any others, or do they post more info later?? Thanks Jonesy

birddog · Post by **birddog** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:13 am

snips wrote:There is no test that is "worthless" if you choose to do it with your dog.

I totally agree and I would never suggest to anyone to enter any kind of test or competition without preperastion.

Janet

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:49 am

I may have come on a little strong. But there are way to many show people that think that just because there dog comes up on a bird and the dog points it that makes the dog a junior hunter. well in my book that is not so. I'm a tough judge but I am so a very fair judge I will give a junior dog the benefit of a doubt. SH and MH are a little different. Both of my Master hunters are bench Champions but that's what I breed for dogs that are built the way they should be and that will hunt.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:04 am

"There is no test that is "worthless" if you choose to do it with your dog."

"They key words are "some work"........Hunt Tests on any level are not worthless....'pear""

"I totally agree and I would never suggest to anyone to enter any kind of test or competition without preperastion."

Brenda, Pear and Janet, THANK-YOU for your statements!!!

1st, while I recognize that there are folks that "mis-use" JH Titles for Show dogs, if they do not prepare or have a dog that is a natural, they will most likely fail! A bracemate to me last year had not prepared their Irish Setter, the dog interfered with my pups work(playing) and the judges seperated us so my pup could work. She Failed! She left the Test planning to learn to do field work. She commented on how amazing it was to watch my dog working the field, as she had never seen good dogwork. Was her experience worthless?

A 10 year old boy ran a GSP that he and his Father had trained(prepared) and he passed with flying colors. His entire family was there; Mom, Dad, Sister and her friend and his younger Brother. Not only did they become members, AS A FAMILY, of our club that day and increase recruitment, but I am sure we will be seeing more of that young man at many Test to come. Was his experience worthless?

A new owner of a Visla was there to attempt her 1st Test. As a requirement of her breeder, she needed to place a JH Title on the pup minimum to fulfill her contract. After her run, her and I were talking and she told me that the Test was awesome and as soon as she completed her JH Title she wanted to find someone to help her train her V-dog all the way to Master level. I told her to consider joining our club and she did. Was her experience worthless?
FWIW: She borrowed my primer pistol and had never fired a "gun" in her life.

Recruitment is essential to growth of Sporting Dog Clubs and Testing, Trialing venues everywhere in this country and the future of the animals and sports we love. Narrow minds and harda$$ed views do not benefit anyone and while the JH is not very difficult (it was never meant to be) it is an essential tool for recruitment.

Just my .02

Post by **pear** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:14 am

Very Well Said Bruce !!!!!!!!!!!!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:20 am

Jonsey, the test is Pointing Dog. Must be 6 mo old, but yours will be by then. Two separate tests, 1 Sun., 1 Sun. I know there are also some tests in S In.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:04 pm

Ya know I feel thats why the tests are better than the trials, in this reason only, it is pass or fail. Don't matter what my dad done for you while back, or I need place for qualify, or I owed him one, the tests, seems like alot more people pay attention to the whole thing not just part. You guys have a wonerful post going on, to bad we don't have the whole crowd, it be a battle of the bands.....Gun dogs verses show dogs. Boy WHAT A BATTLE!! Seems like alot of the show people don't understand the difference in dogs till they see it. A this is no pointing fingers at the show dogs, they seem to be great dogs at what they do. Fair dogs at what we do, same with us, between our game and theirs. And don't get me wrong there are a few exceptional dogs that have done great in both. Congrats to those guys and gals! Just an excellent topic, seems like a lot of honesty all around, makes all the typing worth while. Thanks you guys, this is a good one!! Jonesy

ViniferaVizslas · Post by **ViniferaVizslas** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:29 am

The JH test is easy but to say it's without value smacks of elitism. The JH is a good way to get people into the field. A first step for "show people" to learn what they're dogs are for. Many don't go any farther but some do. It's an easy, simple test that does require some basic handling skills, desire to work and ability to indicate game. It's value is manifest in the number of people who fail.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:52 am

""OldSchoolSpringer"" the SH hunt test is worthless. Are you kidding me how many do you have. In SH you dog has to hold point on birds, be steady to the shoot at least but most are steady to fall, back the other dog and retrieve to hand. This would not be a worthless dog to me. I hope you are talking about some spanial test I could care less about that.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:17 am

Brett your dog will run with a brace mate. Just luck of the draw who it will be. I try to keep my dog away from the brace mates all together. When you come to the starting line most people stand right together. You don't have to do this you can move over to the boundries and start your dog away from the other dog. You can walk the cover the whole test, do not walk the trail like everyone else does. One JH test I ran my dog "GSP" ran with a english pointer. This was a big runner and I started on the line with him. Well my dog was determined that the EP would not out run him. We didn't see either of them for over 10 min. That don't leave anytime for finding birds. We both failed. Some tests will plant birds in a small bird field making the test pretty easy for finding birds. Not all are this way, this one I was talking about and others I have went to are full course planting. That means no bird field you have to hunt the course and find birds. Not near as easy.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:41 am

BRETT,

In scanning over these replies, I didn't see anyone mention horses. Most tests are judged on horseback, at least 2 horses in the field. Has your dog been exposed to them? I've had 3 nearly tragic experiences with dogs meeting horses for the first time. Most dogs have a healthy respect for them but not mine!

My first ever JH run, my dog danced around (barking and lunging more like it) the horse the entire course. I couldn't catch him nor wanted to get kicked by the horse. The same day, with our other dog, we dealt with a fascination with the horses tail and butt. Not a position you want to be in. My 3rd bad experience, a couple years ago (actually introducing dogs to horses after the first 2), was with my brother's weim. I picked up the dog at the starting line and his hunt test career was ended. He was out to take down the horse.

The puppy I have now was showing a high-prey drive towards horses when she was hanging out with us prior to turning 6 months of age. I took her to a stable where we walked about 20 horses by her. After continual corrections, by the end she didn't care about horses anymore. I still sweat bullets at her first hunt test but she decided the bird field and her bracemate were more fun (WHEW!).

On that note, as it appears you already have, expose your dog to birds until you get them to search for birds and hold point long enough for you to get in gun range. It's nice not to over-expose them in the event they start chasing, catching and lose their point. At this point, you can probably start to steady your dog so he at least holds until the shot. Make sure you don't fire the blank in your dogs face (and yours) too. These mistakes happen just out of excitement.

Juniors is fun and make sure you and your dog both make the best of it. Don't hack him too much, I usually have the fellow handler taking care of that for me so I don't have to say anything.

The best thing to get your dog to do is have him come back to you when the judges call time, looks good for trainability.

Good luck!

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:28 am

Tracy was this at the Highland MI course by any chance. If so I think I might have been the bracemate in one of those tests.

TNovoa · Post by **TNovoa** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:16 pm

No, they were all here in NY. I guess I'm not alone!

Hey, your dog looks really cool. Is he (I think I see male parts?) considered solid liver or liver and white?

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:07 pm

He is liver and white. His belly and legs are white. Thanks for the compliment! Here is anouther pic. You are not alone the dog I ran with was a weim and decided to attack the horse. The judge almost fell off. It was pretty scary.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:50 pm

A weim attacking something, interesting.

I was judging a SH test and was awaiting dogs at the line. My horse had his head down grazing and her comes the handler putting his dog right into the horses face saying "my dog has never been around horses before". After a brief hop by the horse I told him that he was lucky I was still in the saddle and not on the ground as it might be tough to pass his dog under that situation.

On of the best things I've done for a young dog in preperation to testing is go to your clubs field trial when the pups are 4-6 months. Have them used to a stake out and stake them out where handlers, judges, and gallery ride by. It doesn't take long before the novelty of the horse thing wears off.

Brett D. · Post by **Brett D.** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:34 pm

All, this is alot of great information. Thank you. It seems to have turned into quite a busy thread. I am learning alot just by reading this.
I think my club is doing a trip up north to a hunt test this month. I might just go and check it out with out the intention of running the dog. Just to see what it is all about.
Tracey, The breeder who gave me the dog has horses. She told me all her dogs are exposed to horses as pups. As a matter of fact I think her horses might be there for the test.
Also, Im pretty sure my dog was bred for show. But I am more interested in the field. I am a rookie. But the dog seems pretty driven to hunt to me. He might just run stupid the first few minutes in the field but after he comes across the first covey of quail his whole attitude changes. Its really cool to see. At least to me. After that his nose is to the ground and it looks like hes running around with a purpose.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:01 pm

ohiogsp Nice looking dog! I had a young vizsla Pup bark at me and the horse for the whole brace. I even had the handler hold the dog till I rode a hundred yards away so I could watch the dog from up on a hill and the dog just ran straight back to me and barked till we called time. If your going to do hunt tests introducing them to horse is a must. very good point. And you should also train in the rain birds will smell different when there wet. I have seen a lot of young dogs just plow into birds during tests that where rainy as heck

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:18 pm

Ohiogsp, not to change the subject, but I did not know your dog was colored like that. If you look at my website under Important Dogs, my origional Snips was marked like that, Birdacres Snip Of Snow. I loved it and could never get it back after breeding to Duke Von Wildburg. That is considered solid liver, but called self fronted. I would like to see an extended pedigree on him if you have one, could you email it? walnuthillgsps@webtv.net

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:33 pm

Thanks for the compliements. Thanks for the info about that being self fronted Brenda never heard that before.

Brett D. · Post by **Brett D.** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:48 am

We had the hunt test on Saturday. I was only able to attend on Saturday so I only got one leg in. I registered last so I my dog was in the last brace with a bye dog. I was happy with that because I got to hang around and take everything in. It also gave me some time to help plant some birds for the other dogs.
Cody performed great. He paid no attention to the horses, didn't interfere with his brace mate, held a nice rock solid point. and didn't even flinch when I fired the starting pistol. His brace mate was a 8 year old GSP female who already had her master title. Her owner put her back on her lead once we got to the area were the birds were planted. However he did run down the pheasant we kicked up. He chased it for about 100 yards found it hiding in the bushes and brought it back to hand. He scored 8's and 9's on his score card. All the dogs there on Saturday passed their JH test with the exception of one English Pointer. The dog just wanted to play with its brace mate and then got scared when it saw the pheasant moving in the brush. It actually jumped backwards. I had a great time. I wish I could have made it back up there for Sunday as well.
Cody had a nice little family reunion while he was there. 5 of his brothers and one of his sisters nto to mention his parents were all there. Here's a picture of him (on the left ) and 4 of his brothers The first 2 to my left are a year older and a lot bigger. Jed, the first one to my left weighed in at 90 lbs.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:51 am

the first one to my left weighed in at 90 lbs.

Good grief!!! He's HUGE!!!

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