Not Pointing Grouse

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ROTTnBRITT
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Not Pointing Grouse

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:40 pm

Ive had my dog out 4 times now on grouse. I havent gotten a point out of him yet. Ive read on here that the dogs will learn how to handle them eventually. How long/many time before it clicks? Im sure its different with each dog.
He did a descent job on pheasants the last couple weekends. Steady to wing and shot. Took him 4 flushes on running birds before one held for him. He would go on point and I would walk in to flush and couldnt find any bird, so I released him and shortly after the bird would flush. (guess I just needed to search a bigger area maybe) The next weekend he had a solid point on a cock birds about 10yrd up wind. Held steady to wing and shot on that.

Today he pointed his first woodcock. But wouldnt hold. More like a flast point. Did it three times.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by moonshinekennel » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:57 am

What breed and how old is you dog. It will come in time. May want keep him off the ditch parots for a while. They tend to let the dog crowd in close and grouse usually don't tolerate that much pressure. Do you hunt him with a beeper collar. If not introduce one. It will tell you if he is flash pointing than rushing in on the birds. Where in Pa are you from?
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:04 am

I forget how old?

Either way. Keep bringing him. Some dogs take a couple years, some have a knack for it and do it earlier.

Have you seen the grouse flush in front of him? Or are you just not seeing grouse?
Have you noticed the wind direction and where your dog was?

Grouse do not put up with much. He may be Flash pointing then trying to catch, if you are seeing or hearing the grouse flush and think or see him chasing.
That is acutally what will teach the pup not to crowd.
Describe what is actually happening.
Rick
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:21 pm

He is a 18 mo. Old Brittany. He runs with a beeper collar on. He maybe bee flash pointing some of them. he was close to them when they flush. Others he isn't so close to. He did flash point the woodcock yesterday. I watched him with the first two. Didn't see him on the third one. The first one I set him back where he pointed and whoa'd him and pretended to flush a bird. The second it was to thick for me to get to.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:17 pm

18 months is still young especially if it is his first real year on them.
That flash point should get longer and longer.
Not sure where you are in your training, but what you did is correct to kind of set his mind right. Don't pressure or scold him while on the birds. Let him learn with a little guidence from you.

But Once you get throught this season and maybe a few days in the spring of wild bird work. Go to your formal training, Whoa, steadiness, etc. In the yard and field, then move that same training and bird work to the woods in likely grouse type cover.

This is what I do and would do.
Rick
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:40 pm

Yes this is his first year. Not putting any.pressure on him. Just taking him out to find birds. I haven't done really any training on birds. Had him on planted quail 3 or 4 times. He was crowding real bad so I quit with that and started taking him out to find wild birds.

Thanks for the advice.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:57 am

RB,
The dog is a little to inexperienced to give up on that is for sure, get him out a lot more, be patient. People who tell you that Grouse handle like any other bird
are flat out inexperienced themselves. Let the dog bump some birds and educate himself to Thunderkings world, he will either start to point at 1st scent or
he might not be a Grouse dog. Some Brits do make good Grouse dogs, some do not have enough brains and point to set up at 1st scent, even after trying to educate themselves with many many bumped Grouse. This is why when purchasing a Grouse dog you always try to purchase from repetative proven stock, not all dogs are Grouse dogs.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:40 pm

" he will either start to point at 1st scent or he might not be a Grouse dog." :roll: If he aint a grouse dog we won't be anyother type of bird dog.

Grouse dogs are made not born. Bird dogs are born. Most Bird dogs are smart, Most Brittanies are smart, some smarter than others but theya ll want birds. Geesh. :roll: You just keep exposing him to grouse and any other game bird you can. He will get it. You have to be patient. How well you dog does will eventually have more to do with you teaching the dog and allowing the dog to learn.

Every hunting brit in Maine is a grouse dog. Not all come from Maine including all of mine which come from Montana, South Dakota, and Georgia, My GSP is from GA.

One thing I noticed just now is you are running this dog with a beeper collar. How much time with birds of any kind has this dog been on with a beeper collar?

I have one that does not like the beeper collar in the run/point mode. The other day I put it on the Run/Point mode because the snow was cloggingup her bell. She was usually okay with the point only mode, but when that went off most times she was on a Ruff. But if she stops for what ever reason and the beeper goes off she will start moving again.
So if you dog is not going such a distance from you that you can hear the bell maybe loose the beeeper till the dog is more confident on the ruffs.

Don't let anyone tell you, that you do not have a grouse dog till it is dead.

Rick
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:23 pm

RB,
No matter what RS tells you there are lot of dogs that can't handle spooky Grouse, most do handle the unpredatorized Grouse especially in places like Maine and Canada.
Not sure just where you live, but if you live in Pa, Ny, WV, or even parts of VT & even parts of NH now, the Grouse are a more challenging bird. Some places out west, Me and Canada the birds can be handled by most any type house dogs, there is a great deal of difference in the birds depending on location and predators. However don't give up on your young dog, he still may make a good Grouse dog, give him the time to mature and give him lots of experience before you decide. No matter what RS or anybody else tells you, pick up a copy of Davis's old book, Training your own bird Dog, and read what the very best trainers who ever lived taught Henry P.( Davis) He spells it out for the beginner and the Pro. "There are lots of different kinds of bird dogs and on the top of that list sits the Grouse dog." Davis RS pick up a copy of Davis's book and read for yourself what the most respected pros say the different abilities of bird dogs must be. The book spells it out and no book has ever done it so clearly. For those that have never heard of Davis, Ames and Buckingham you might want to pick up the book also. They were the most knowledgeable bird dog men who ever lived. "The man who owns a good grouse dog owns an animal that is almost beyond price" Davis page 83.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by birddog1968 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:57 pm

Beware of RGD's advise, he has been debunked on more than one forum.....Huh Beano.

He's even a celebrity and has his own webpage, maybe he will share it with you :lol:
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:58 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:RB,
No matter what RS tells you there are lot of dogs that can't handle spooky Grouse, most do handle the unpredatorized Grouse especially in places like Maine and Canada.
Not sure just where you live, but if you live in Pa, Ny, WV, or even parts of VT & even parts of NH now, the Grouse are a more challenging bird. Some places out west, Me and Canada the birds can be handled by most any type house dogs, there is a great deal of difference in the birds depending on location and predators. However don't give up on your young dog, he still may make a good Grouse dog, give him the time to mature and give him lots of experience before you decide. No matter what RS or anybody else tells you, pick up a copy of Davis's old book, Training your own bird Dog, and read what the very best trainers who ever lived taught Henry P.( Davis) He spells it out for the beginner and the Pro. "There are lots of different kinds of bird dogs and on the top of that list sits the Grouse dog." Davis RS pick up a copy of Davis's book and read for yourself what the most respected pros say the different abilities of bird dogs must be. The book spells it out and no book has ever done it so clearly. For those that have never heard of Davis, Ames and Buckingham you might want to pick up the book also. They were the most knowledgeable bird dog men who ever lived. "The man who owns a good grouse dog owns an animal that is almost beyond price" Davis page 83.
RGD/Dave
Nice post except you for got "IMO" quite a few times. We seldom find authorities on bird dog training, bird dog trainers, or bird dog owners who agree on anything. Wonder why that might be? Could it be that it is just personal opinion as to the best or even adequate?

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:27 pm

Ezzy,
IMO that is why I referenced Davis's book so the gentlemen might read what some of the greatest bird dog men in history believe, each of us has his own opinions.
The book however is alot more than just opinion, its gathered knowledge from lots of pros who advised Davis during his life.
RGD/Dave

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by birddog1968 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:45 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:BD68,
Its other people who get debunked by me, and when I am personally attacked by fools like you, everytime I back up my opinion with facts from other pros such as I have done here, then the personal attacks get even worse, especially from the FT click. Been thru this crap lots of times, with people who have little to add to a conversation but want to start trouble on the forums. You are just the latest in a long line of fools, who can't argue their point so they want to play the personal attack game.

RGD/Dave
I bow to your wisdom, your a legend in you own mind :roll:
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:39 am

You misrepresent what I write. Yes Ruff dogs are high level bird dogs, Yes they have to be intellegent in the manner that they have the " OPPORTUNTIY TO LEARN AND RETAIN THROUGH EXEPERIENCE, TIME ON THE GROUND WITH THE BIRD." will some dogs not be that good at it, yes. That is the same as any good well bred bird dog.. I am not saying you can go out there with a nutso dog and do well. It's like you think the only good grouse dogs are the ones bred the way you like.. Which maybe good for you but not for another. In fact it sounds like you are calling my dogs House dogs mutt. Tread lightly sir. That is like calling a mans wife ugly. :wink:

I also do not have anything negative about the book you recomend. ( don't even know it. I also did not attack you. I am letting the OP know that if he gives his dog the opportunity it probably will figure things out. And training will reinforce it. I also have not attacked you but you put doubt in the OP's mind with out ever seeing his dog. By the way you will notice that the OP's dog did point 2 grouse very well.

You know not where I hunt or what it is like. Rangely and Moosehead, Mount Vernon, Farmington, Farmingdale, New port, Eagle lake, Sebago, Down east. These area get a ton of hunting pressure by road hunters and bird dogs of flushing and pointing. Un-preditoritized?: lets see Humans on foot, in vehicles Road hunting, Four wheelers Road hunting, Moose hunting parties with one permittee and four guys along for the fun all with shot guns taking what ever they see, Bob cats, Foxes, coyotes, fishers, pine martins, weasles, bears, owls, hawks, eagles, Nesting and brooding, season, skunks, Racoons, all the above turkeys, crows etc.

The reason a good grouse dog is near the top of the list of bird dogs regarding ability to handle birds is because the Ruff offers work in all disciplines. It is spooky, it is a tree bird, swamp bird, orchard bird, logging area bird, a berry patch bird, a dark woods bird, old growth forest bird a hunker down in the snow bird. It is a walker/runner, At times quick to flush if you fart, other times it will let you walk by before it flushes, it is stealthy working back out of a scent cone, It is great at putting obstructions between the predator and itself. A grouse dog must master all these disciplnes in woods not fields of like scent, although you will find them in clover patches. It must be patient, honest, and work with little handling. I do not discount what a grouse dog is, I beleive and have proven (at least to myself and those that hunt with me) that a well bred bird dog allowed opportunity to learn with guidence from a patient owner has the opportunity to own a decent Ruff Grouse dog.

Dave you need to understand that I love Ruff grouse dogs and the Ruff grouse as much as you do, but I am not blinded by my greatness.

Ruff Grouse dogs are made not born although they have to be born to become good Ruff Grouse dogs. Certain types of dogs will pick it up quicker than others? yes. will some not make it yes, but mostly because they have not had enough opportunity or the owner has not the patience.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:26 pm

Dave,

My four gentleman's companion GSP field trial bred gun dogs & I still want to see some PA grouse hunting in the snow pictures. :D
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Winchey » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:35 pm

+++1 on Ruffs post. I think if you ask a lot of serious grouse hunters most will tell you that if you have a reasonably bred dog with a reasonable nose and give him the yard training and then enough grouse they will eventually make reasonably good grouse dogs. Most people I have talked to also recommend working young dogs on woodcock as well as it makes the transition to grouse easier. So yard work + woodcock + lots of grouse contact more often than not = grouse dog.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:50 pm

W,

I've never hunted grouse with a golden. I'm curious, how does your golden go about handling grouse for you?
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Thunder » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Hey RottnBritt... One thing is something you cannot undo at this point. If you intend to hunt a dog on grouse it is advisable to avoid pheasants until he has learned Mr. Ruff. More than any other game-bird pheasants run ahead of a dog. For a dog to point one he has to press it until it gives up and hold its ground. A season of that and any dog will blow out every grouse it finds. Mr. Ruff don't run... he hunkers. When your dog crowds him he freaks and flushes. A season on pheasants teaches your dog to crowd birds. He will probably learn to handle a grouse but not as quickly as he would have if he hadn't tasted pheasants first. Be patient and work him on chucker and quail when you cannot get him into grouse cover.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:56 pm

Thunder wrote: Mr. Ruff don't run... he hunkers.
T,

It's not a bad idea to work them on grouse first. However, good gun dogs figure out each species they go after. Sorry to disagree with you but ruffed grouse sneak/run off very often. You'd have to have very limited experience with ruffed grouse to never have noticed it.
Ruffshooter wrote: It is spooky, it is a tree bird, swamp bird, orchard bird, logging area bird, a berry patch bird, a dark woods bird, old growth forest bird a hunker down in the snow bird. It is a walker/runner, At times quick to flush if you fart, other times it will let you walk by before it flushes, it is stealthy working back out of a scent cone, It is great at putting obstructions between the predator and itself.
Right on!!
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by 4dabirds » Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:34 pm

Maybe a better use for this amount of space would be for every one to give some advice on grouse hunting strategy. If a dog will look for and point and bring back a stinky "bleep" pigeon it will hunt any bird i'm sure.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Winchey » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:22 pm

My golden can't be bothered to lookfor them, he used to basically keep me company when I took him grouse hunting.It is doubtful that he is even a pure bred golden and hightly unlikely that birds were even thought of when he was bread.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Pleasant Ridge » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:27 pm

Mr. Ruff don't run...

Respectfully, I have to disagree completely.. Don't fool yourself.. A Grouse will run given the opportunity..

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Thunder » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:47 pm

To those who disagree with me, you are doing so based on the exceptions. Relative to Pheasants grouse can hardly be considered runners. They will run from time to time but it is not their first choice as a defense and they seldom run more than a few yards before blowing out. The odd pen reared pheasant will hold but wild birds rarely do. Starting a bird-dog on pheasant then expecting him to figure out grouse before the age of 18 months is asking a lot.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:45 am

Thunder,

You are entitled to your opinion but you haven't found much support here yet. There could be some differences due to terrain but I doubt it. One reason dogs are so effective is because they get after & pin all those birds that slink away, birds a foot hunter normally would not put up. See if you can drum up more support for your opinion but I personally will still only agree to disagree.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:46 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote
RB,
No matter what RS tells you there are lot of dogs that can't handle spooky Grouse, most do handle the unpredatorized Grouse especially in places like Maine and Canada
Is this puppy pointing a spooky Potter County grouse that cannot be crowded?
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:51 am

Sorry, I don't normally do this but ....... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I do apologize.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:44 am

Thunder: If you put a pheasant and a Ruff Grouse on the ground together and had a race the pheasant would win. In fact the Ruff probably be scared go the other way. :wink: Ruffs do run or walk quite a bit. Depends what is going on. I

Rick
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Thunder » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:51 pm

I have hunted grouse in just about every terrain there is and, yes they will run a bit depending on the situation.... the point I am making is that they do not handle being pressed by a dog without taking flight. Pheasants handle it quite well by running like heck and in even moderate cover can outrun a dog for surprising distances. When you start a dog on pheasants it will develop habits that will make the learning curve for grouse steep. A lot more steep than it would have been if the dog was started on grouse before it was introduced to pheasants. And I am not trying to win either converts to my opinion or an argument. I am sharing the wisdom of five decades afield. I am not offended if some do not find it valuable... it has served me well.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:51 am

Just a little levity Thunder; I understand so does everybody else, mostly. There are others with decades of experience with both birds also.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Thunder » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:36 pm

No problem really. I have pretty thick skin. :)

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:30 pm

For the Gentlemen who wanted snow Pictures

Image

Image

Image

Even a Puppy in the snow picture for ya

Image
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:40 pm

Chukar12,
As a matter a fact the pup was pointing a very spooky old Grouse, you notice in the picture the Grouse is hidden from view and the bird still bused.
The pup did a great job, at his age.

Rich I undestand we Grouse hunt in much the same manner and my point is the dog has to be born with a certain kind of instinct to make a good Grouse dog,
and not all dogs even with massive experience can really handle Grouse properly.

I also agree that a good Grouse dog should handle Grosue before he messes with ditch chickens, in fact why take a good Grouse dog around ditch checkens
at all. Oh my God did I really say that, now the Pheasant Forever boys will be looking for my head also.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:55 pm

Dave,

I couldn't spot the grouse in the snow picture. How was the action that day? Do your dogs apply any special techniques to locate & point grouse that dived/dove into deep snow? Do you have conifers as well?

Thanks for the snow picture. Looks just like many spots in Minne-snow-ta.
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Hookadooka BirdDogs » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:58 pm

Having hunted Mr. Ruff for more years than I like to remember, I would suggest that if a dog that is not pointing grouse right away, don't sweat it. Give the dog about 400-500 encounters with the "king" and you will eventually have a good grouse dog if the drive and breeding is there. If you want a great grouse dog you need to really dedicate yourself and your dog (s) to grouse and pretty much to only hunting grouse for the first 4-5 years. Believe me, it can become an addiction. I have hunted the wily one mainly in Ohio's southeast counties and NW PA and have close to 500 kills over many years. With about an 8% kill rate the equates to about 6000 flushes over the years in a state that rarely averages 1.2 to 1.4 flushes per hour. I'm not bragging nor am I complaining. It is what it is. You have to put a lot of steps on the ground and have tons of dog patience to become just an average grouse hunter, especially when the bird numbers are down. Don't ever get your dobber down!
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by yetinme » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:52 pm

Alright, I'll be your Huckleberry. I don't see grouse in any of the pics. :oops:

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Truthseeker » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:54 pm

i understand Fetters Setters has some real good grouse dogs

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:16 am

The original posters question:
ROTTnBRITT wrote:Ive had my dog out 4 times now on grouse. I havent gotten a point out of him yet. Ive read on here that the dogs will learn how to handle them eventually. How long/many time before it clicks? Im sure its different with each dog.
Truthseeker wrote:i understand Fetters Setters has some real good grouse dogs
I don't understand how the response relates to the question?
Mark

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:32 am

Here's a post about cover trials & grouse hunting written by one of my gentleman's hunting companions: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 72&start=0
Mark

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:06 am

Mark,
Good point it has nothing to due with the coversation at hand, just someone who would rather play games than add any useful info to the thread.
There are lots of different views on this subject and some people get up set when their views are challenged. If you have a chance to pick up Davis's old book
it has a lot of great knowledge in taught to Davis by some of the greatest pros who ever trained and hunted behind a gun dog.
RGD/Dave

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:07 am

Chukar12,
As a matter a fact the pup was pointing a very spooky old Grouse, you notice in the picture the Grouse is hidden from view and the bird still bused.
The pup did a great job, at his age.
Dave, I ask because in the picture the puppy is looking straight down ...where is the grouse?

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:21 am

Chukar12,
The Grouse was at the far end of the log on the opposite side, the Grouse seemed to think the pup was no danger to him and let the pup encroach on
his safety zone. If the pup would have seen the Grouse & moved, it would have busted, as it did when I walked up after taking the picture. The little guy did a great job just getting that close to a spooky old Grouse that we use for training all the time, and he did it just out playing on his own. This is one of the reasons why we have the invisable fence, it lets this kind of contact happen when you have Grouse living in the forest, just outside the front door. Its great for the pup, when he is this young to
invetigate the smells and get use to his hunting habatat.
RGD/Dave

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:43 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mark,
Good point it has nothing to due with the coversation at hand, just someone who would rather play games than add any useful info to the thread.
There are lots of different views on this subject and some people get up set when their views are challenged. If you have a chance to pick up Davis's old book
it has a lot of great knowledge in taught to Davis by some of the greatest pros who ever trained and hunted behind a gun dog.
RGD/Dave
Dave,

I've learned a lot in five decades of observing ruffed grouse behaviors but I'm always interested in additional knowledge and never claim to be an expert.
Mark

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K9luke
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by K9luke » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:45 pm

I start all my dogs on pigeons. A lot of them, then Quail and Pheasants. Then grouse. Once your dog hunts and points "birds" it will have what it takes to hunt and point grouse. All you have to do is let it retrieve a few grouse whether it points them or not and your dog will be in the game with you and it will hunt and point grouse. Finding grouse to train with has never been an option for me and I couldn't tell you that it would be legal even if it was. Shoot a few, the dog will retrieve them and begin to hunt them and point them as well as any other bird. Grouse are just birds. Take your dog and hunt them. If you jump one then shoot it ! Praise the dog for retrieving it and follow through with your training and the dog will hunt and point them. There is no magick to it. Just that the dog needs to learn and know the scent and understand that grouse are what you are hunting.

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Thunder » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:37 am

[quote="Ryman Gun Dog"]For the Gentlemen who wanted snow Pictures

Image

Image

Even a Puppy in the snow picture for ya

Hi RGD, Beautiful dog... looks a lot like my female "Feather". What bloodline is she? (I know she must be from the Ryman line but what kennel)

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Carl Porter
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Carl Porter » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:42 pm

JMO. I had a young GSP I trained for a customer on Bobwhite Quail. She would point and hold Bobs all day long. He took her out on wild Valley Quail and she ran through a number of coveys and singles. I at first thought it was something he was doing, so I offered to take her to a little honey hole I knew of and work her on wild birds. 7 times we went out and I never fired a shot. I don't shoot any bird for my dogs that they don't point. The 7th time out she pointed 10 times and I shot 7 birds over her that she pointed. That day she figured out what a wild quail smelled like. I think this might be the case with this dog and grouse. Sometimes it takes a dog a few times out on a certain species to figure out the birds scent and habits. After they do, they are usually dialed in for life.
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.
You are his life, his love, his leader.
He will be yours faithful and true to the last beat of his heart.
You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
-Anonymous
www.huntingdogtrainer.net

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Ryman Gun Dog
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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:06 am

Thunder,
Daisy is a Ryman/Reid breeding, his male was from Ryman/DeCoverly way back, and his female was out of the old Setters West stock. This particular breeding produced some fantastic Grouse dogs. I am hopefully going to breed Daisy with my male, as he proves himself out as a serious Grouse dog. He seems to have all the moves but is not quite 9 months old at this point. We will see how things progress, Heston is a Fire Side/Ryman pup, out of Lynn Dee's breeding in VT. She had her Tweed
female at our training facility earlier this year and Tweed is a fantastic Grouse dog, very instinctive Grouse hunter and biddable, she covers very serious ground and hunts for the master. Tweed is my pup Hestons mother, so if the genetic imprint holds true Heston should have no problem developing into a very serious instinctive Grouse dog. We will see what happens as time goes along.
One last thing, I take no clients from this or any other forum, I have no dogs for sale, although our business does recommend certain breeders to our clients and friends.
RGD/Dave

Pine Creek Fireside Heston, our latest Male Ryman style pup
Image

Heston 4 pointing his 1st Woodcock, notice the low tail, instead of the high tail 3 point he usually sets Grouse with.
Hopefully he will get a little more intense on his point, after I shoot his 1st Timberdoodle for him.

Image

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by rustyrat » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:32 am

if you like you can get combative but the statements: "grousedogs are made not born" & "you probably should stay away from pheasant with the caveat (in the beginning) are closest to the truth. i've raised britts for 30+ years and have known many grouse hunters that shoot too many birds over dogs other than britts that gag me. i would just as soon hunt behind a hot springer as many of the "pointing" dogs that they use. they in retuirn they hate my young dogs, but they love the 5 year old plus models. i would suggest getting the dog on grouse as often as possible with a young dog. i don't break them (grouse dogs) early because there is lots more to learn in the woods and having to correct a young dog impedes the process. hunting liberated birds is a completely different thing then grouse hunting. wild birds are much more predictable if you think. as for grouse not running, at least where we hunt in central PA i believe that through selective breeding the ruffed grouse is on par with liberated ringneck as too hoofing it. they seem to wait longer to run but they often cover real estate before leaving the ground .

Winnen

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:40 am

rustyrat wrote: i've raised britts for 30+ years and have known many grouse hunters that shoot too many birds over dogs other than britts that gag me. i would just as soon hunt behind a hot springer as many of the "pointing" dogs that they use. they in retuirn they hate my young dogs, but they love the 5 year old plus models.
Would you mind explaining further what you are trying to say about shooting too many birds over pointing dogs other than Britts?

With the second underlined portion, am I understanding correctly that these same folks hate young dogs that don't have good manners on birds yet? If so, why do you suppose that
is? They just don't show enough patience for young dogs learning about the woods, the birds and hunting?
Mark

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by slistoe » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:01 am

BigShooter wrote: With the second underlined portion, am I understanding correctly that these same folks hate young dogs that don't have good manners on birds yet? If so, why do you suppose that
is? They just don't show enough patience for young dogs learning about the woods, the birds and hunting?
It has been my experience that most folks ascribe to the "do no harm" philosophy of hunting with dogs. Their vision does not extend beyond the immediate.

There are things that young dogs need to learn about birds and if they make a few mistakes along the way - so be it. I have outlined the identical sentiment as rustyrat on these boards many times over the years. The same type of folks who would see my young dogs as a useless waste of time are also heard to comment on the older dogs "How could I get my dog to do that?" Unfortunately the answer is "Start your dog with a different owner."

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Re: Not Pointing Grouse

Post by BigShooter » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:17 am

slistoe wrote:There are things that young dogs need to learn about birds and if they make a few mistakes along the way - so be it. I have outlined the identical sentiment as rustyrat on these boards many times over the years. The same type of folks who would see my young dogs as a useless waste of time are also heard to comment on the older dogs "How could I get my dog to do that?" Unfortunately the answer is "Start your dog with a different owner."
I've yet to see a young dog that never made a mistake. They need to learn. On the other hand whether I agree or not, I can understand those that would prefer not to hunt in a group with a young dog that had poor manners.
Mark

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