Getting over panic mode...

[Moojoo]

I have a 9 month old GSP that has been worked on pigeons for the last two months and is coming along nicely. I finally got him out for his first pheasant hunt this past weekend and though he comes to a whistle pretty well, he got to chasing a running bird and lost his mind.....and apparently his hearing. He's been trained with an e-collar but I try not to hit him too much at this point, especially around birds. But he eventually ran out of range of me hearing the beeper. I panicked. All my buddies say to relax, that he'll find his way back. But I have a tough time accepting that. I eventually got him back after 10 minutes or so, but if felt like longer than that. I was already thinking about how to tell my boys I lost their dog. When I did find him he was healed up with another hunter and wouldn't leave his side until he got sight of me and then he came to me. Thankfully the other hunter found this funny...

I know you can't train a dog when you're constantly nervous about losing him, but it's seems to be my biggest fault at this point. (I'm sure there's others I don't know about yet.) In those moments when he doesn't come back, is it best to stay in the general area, or move in the direction he ran? I really thought we were better on the comeback training than we are...

The situation was further complicated by the fact that we were hunting through some woods, which is clearly easier to get lost in than an open field...

[birddog1968]

Stay where you are, make him come find you....
Obviously if there is a traveled road or danger nearby I would probably go to the dog too....

As puppies I will take the young ones out and when they aren't looking duck behind cover or whatever is available....pups will usually slightly panic and then come looking for you. Great lesson for them to learn.

If they enjoy being/hunting with you they will get worried and come looking for you. Obviously in your case it would have been better if he didn't find the refuge of another hunter....try this in an area with no body else around, I will do it with pups on fun walks and the dogs aren't necessarily far away when I hide on em.

[cjuve]

I had that happen to me once the last time I saw him he was about 1/2 mile out heading over the top, needless to say I was a little pissed. I threw out the crate a little food and some water and headed to town. I was about half way home when my conscience got the best of me and I turned around. It was about 1/2 hr past dark when I got to where I left the kennel and as the headlights passed by the crate, there was that runoff SOB kicking back on my t-shirt that I left for him. Dogs are pretty smart critters and can usually find their way back to the last place that you were at. I like to stay put or leave something that will keep them there.

[578SLE]

How did you teach "here"?

If you are using an e-collar, the collar should be overlaid the check cord on the command "here." That is to say, once the dog is responding to the "here" command and a quick sharp tug from the check cord and coming to you on his own (not being reeled in), overlay a very light "tap" from the e-collar (it should just barely make the dog twitch) with the quick sharp tug from the check cord. This will be your new "cue" to refocus your dog and remind him to respond to your command. The association becomes a verbal cue (the command "here"), quickly followed by a physical cue (first the tug on the cc and later overlaid and substituted by the "tap" of the e-collar), with the dog's response (coming to you).

Now, when a dog becomes interested in something that is more exciting than your command "here," you will have to increase the level of stimulation of the "tap" to match the item of interest, break the dog's focus, and regain the dog's attention. For instance, in the yard when you call the dog and it is sniffing something, a very light tap is all that is needed because the item being sniffed is not all that interesting. However, if a dog takes off after a bird or a rabbit you are going to have slowly increase the level of stimulation to match the level of excitement of the chase. The scenario might go something like this: the dog gives chase and you command "here." The dog continues to chase, and you repeat "here" with a tap at level one. No response. Again, repeat "here" with a tap at level two. No response. And again repeat "here" with a tap at level three. At that point the dog turns and begins to come to you. The whole process should take place in 10 seconds or less. Most dogs turn around after the second tap. Occasionally, you will find a hard headed dog that will attempt to run through the collar. It is important that you win this battle and that the dog refocus on you and complete the command. Should you have to turn your collar way up to do this, be sure and turn it down again. Once the dog knows you can run up the juice if need be, the dog will comply and refocus on your cue at the lower settings.

It is important that you understand that this "tap" is not a correction or punishment, but rather a "cue" to refocus the dog's attention on a previously taught association. That is why the "tap" should be set at the lowest possible level that you are sure the dog feels. It is designed to work in a similar manner to that tug that you started with on the check cord.

Finally, if you have taught "here" using this method, and you know the dog can hear you, the dog should understand that the "tap" is a cue associated with your command to return and has nothing to do with the bird.

Sounds like your pup is ready to learn stop to incidental flush.

[RayGubernat]

Moojoo -

What you are experiencing is quite common and quite normal.

I will tell you something that might help. I have been chasing big runing dogs for close to fifty years now and I an't lost one permanently...yet. A couple have gone over the hill chasing deer, but they were on the coat I left for them the next morning. The dogs I hunt are expected to hunt at ranges that will take them out of sight fairly often.

I grew up hunting, with letting a brace of dogs go and following along where they went. We would follow along and find the dogs on point...or they would pop back around to make sure we were still coming. If the dog did not show up in five minutes or so of being out of sight, you went to look for it because it was on point somewhere. I think I was about 20 years old before I realized most folks around here wanted to see their dogs al the time.

I now run horseback shooting dogs, both in competition and follow the same dogs on foot when I am hunting and they routinely go out of sight because that is how I have encouraged and allowed them to hunt. They either find birds and are standing their game when I get there, or come back to check up on me.

I will not tell you that I do not get uneasy when a dog of mine dips out of sight and does not come back for ten minutes or more, becaus that would be a lie. When you have big running dogs you always have that little knot in your gut when the SOB fades out of sight.

All I can say is that if a bird dog likes you, wants to be with you and hunt with you and for you, it will stay in contact with you and will come back for you. Mine always have.

At a recent trial, I "lost" one of my dogs to the front somewhere. When I pulled out the tracking device because she had been out of judgement for too long, the device registered 1.6 miles to the front and that the dog was standing. I rode to the dog and when within a half mile, I began calling her to come to me. She left that point after several repeated calls and came directly to me. She was not "lost". She knew exactly where she was and where I was. Most of the time the dogs do know. They ain't lost, they are just hunting.

If the dog likes you, it will come back for you. Believe it.

RayG

[578SLE]

Given the following:

I have a 9 month old GSP...and though he comes to a whistle pretty well, he got to chasing a running bird and lost his mind.....and apparently his hearing. He's been trained with an e-collar but I try not to hit him too much at this point, especially around birds...In those moments when he doesn't come back...I really thought we were better on the comeback training than we are...

I was under the impression you were trying to recall the dog but were unable to and the dog was blowing off your commands to come here. If this was not the case, listen to the advice already given. Trust your dog.

[Don]

If he was trained with a e-collar, after the chase get's under way, start bumping him with the collar till he breaks off the chase. Make sure the chase is on though! You are of course sure he wasn't chasing a rabbit? Did you see a pheasant flush somewhere in front of him? Pheasants run pretty good but will not out run a decent dog, a rabbit will simply outmanuver the dog. If the dog was chasing a pheasant you should have seen it flush somewhere.

[ultracarry]

I was out with my dog chasing mtn quail.. she was gone for about 30 min... waited waited and she showed up. I whistled my dog in a lot to have her check in with me.... bought a D40 and I am worrie free.

I was at a hunt test when a man told me not to call or make my dog check in. The cover was thin so I just watched her work. 3-400 yes out and she was working cover and go out of sight.. she would come into sight to check up and go back at it again. To say I was surprised would be an understatement.

Let him explore but I would put a d40 on him just for that peace of mind. They love you and would not just run away. Specially if you feed him.

[Moojoo]

Guys,

Thanks for the help...it's good to know that more experienced guys get on edge a bit too. I took Hank out again and this time he stayed within 50 yards...a little too close. I think he picked up on my panicking, and maybe it freaked him out.

But I was able to get him his first pheasant, and he's birdy enough that I'm sure in time he'll start running big again.

I trained him "here" just as was mentioned, with a CC first, then moved to the e-collar. He does well at home or at a park....but as I stated earlier, I have a ways to go before it translates to the field. I do believe he chased something, but I never saw it. Since we were in the woods it could have been anything. I've had him since he was 7 weeks old and he never leaves my side, so I was surprised he healed up with another hunter. I tried to match the excitement with stimulation, but by the time I started he was already out of range of me hearing the beeper, and after hearing him yelp twice, I stopped altogether. (Stim was on 2 of a TT....he's a little soft. ) I'm assuming the extra stim is what kept him close the second time out...

The trainer I'm working with says he has enough drive that it would be tough to break him down too much at this point, unless I did something really stupid. It was a minor (I hope) setback, but I still think he'll branch out again. He's still far from my boots....he just pays real close attention to where I'm at now.

I tend to live on the worry side of things....so I think this dog training thing is going to teach some pretty valuable life lessons...

Thanks again for the help!

[Carl Porter]

Two things I was told by 2 different experienced dog guys.
1. Never let your dog do anything in training or hunting that you would get thrown out in a trial for.
If you don't trial the idea is always train for the finished dog. I don't let dogs chase birds ever. Especially when they are young in training. If they are allowed to chase its a very hard habit to break. If a dog chases a bird in a field trial YOUR OUT! So never allow your dog to chase. Delayed chase, relocate on its own, or chase a running dog. The correct way to handle a dog is to move the dog up after he established point. Never let him move up on his own. This will keep him from chasing at any time. Never let a dog chase a flushed bird or covey. If he does and has been trained to come to the "Here" command, you have all the right to use the collar. If you don't you have told the dog he doesn't need to listen to you after the first command. The collar is not a punishment only an extension of your check cord. Just like in the initial training after the command a slight tug on the collar follows. 578sle's instruction are dead on for training "Here".
2. The good ones always come back.
All of us that have run big running dogs like All Age dogs have lost dogs. I have lost them for as long as 5 hours in summer camp last year. You do what you can to find them but at some point in the dark you have to give up and wait until daylight. Many great dogs in our breed have run off never to be found or hit by a car. While hunting or Field Trialing always use a tracking collar. The Garmin tracking unit is the best tracking unit I have ever used. If you use them every time you let your dog loose your probably not going to lose them. They take some getting used to but are pretty much idiot proof. They have a compass and distance mode that will tell you exactly what direction and how far away in most conditions. More so than Wildlife Materials, Marshal, Tracker etc. The signal on the Garmin doesn't bounce off hills. But even as hard as you try some get away. Mine ran off last summer while we were putting dogs up about a half hour before dark. I tried for hours to find him since he had not tracking collar and about 2 hours into looking in the rain and sleet I said thats enough. If he smart he'll come back. Cant say i didnt go to bed with that knot in my stomach and said a gang of prayers but the truth is a smart dog will come look for you. Best advise for a dog that likes to go, Buy a tracking collar. Us field trial people train them to get out there. Many times they are out of sight. You have to trust your dog and have a little insurance with the tracking collar.

[Moojoo]

Thanks, Carl.

You mean the $600 tracking collar system from Garmin (DC40)? I don't think I can pull that off this year....or next. Is there a cheaper option worth looking at?

[Carl Porter]

Yup, thats the one. I have seen it a little cheaper and its a great investment. i just dont thing going the less expensive route it the thing to do here.

[ultracarry]

See if a friend or two wants to go in on one. Buy the extra collar...

[Carl Porter]

Thats a great idea. Your hunting partner. If I remember correctly it will track up to 10 dogs at once.

[kbshorthairs]

the price of that collar is a bargain......if you compare the price of the puppy, training time and money spent, love of the dog etc etc etc

[Moojoo]

Hank already wears the ecollar and beeper... Will the tracking collar fit on the same collar as those two (in between them)? Or is it best to keep it on its own strap?

There's just something funny about a dog running through a field with $1K wrapped around his neck. But I see the point with how much I have invested in him already...

[ezzy333]

Moojoo,

One thing I think you need to remember is that your pup is probably never lost. It is only you that doesn't know where he is while the chances are he knows exactly where you are. All of these wonderful modern gadjets we have today are wonderful if you can afford them but just remember there have been many thousands dogs run without them that have never been lost. I would love to own all of them but fully understand how hard it is to justify for a single dog. For the professional they make a lot of sense, but it is difficult to talk the kids into going to bed hungry or without the clothes they need so you can play with your dog.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

moojoo -
As far as the garmin is concerned, I have seen the m for $470 of r the DC 30 and $530 for the DC40 (imroved) unit.

Yeah that is a lot of coin.

As an option, you might look for a used Tracker dog telemetry unit. These units were selling for upwards of $1000 before the Garmin GPS came on the scene and now can be had for much, much less, in used condition. They are a little less precise than the Garmin and do not tell you exactly how far away the dog is or give you an arrow direction to follow, but they have certain advantages over the Garmin...principally range and longevity. The Garmin's' range(with standard antenna) maxes out at under 2 miles under ideal circumstances and a Tracker with the standard antenna has more than three times that range in normal(not ideal) terrain. The Garmin's collar battery will last about a day, at most. The Tracker collar's battery will last for a couple of weeks.

Remember, what I said earlier... I was chasing after big running dogs long before there was any of this stuff available. So were a lot of folks. It can be done.

Think about this also... If you never let your dog go over the hill, you can never experience the incredible thrill of topping that rise and seeing your boy locked up on point on the back side of that hill, all bug eyed and proud...just waiting there...FOR YOU!

Moments like that, my friend is what it is all about! Enjoy the ride.

RayG

[AzDoggin]

Think about this also... If you never let your dog go over the hill, you can never experience the incredible thrill of topping that rise and seeing your boy locked up on point on the back side of that hill, all bug eyed and proud...just waiting there...FOR YOU!

RayG

That's a cool description right there, Ray. Makes me want to go hunt...

[RayGubernat]

AZ -

That is one of the most incredible feelings a bird hunter can experience, I think. You haven't seen your dog since it went over the hill... you are beginning to get just a little worried about what you are going to find when you top that rise... you start to pick up the pace a little and start chugging up the hill... AND THEN...

WHAM!!

There he is, standing up on his toenails, making like a piece of marble statuary...eyeball to eyeball with(whatever species you are hunting) and he is waiting for YOU to get there so you can join in the dance.

Relief, joy, pride and satisfaction all rolled up into one moment in time. It really don't get too much better than that. That is the stuff that lasting memories are made of.

RayG

[Moojoo]

Ray,

Thanks for the honest and helpful replies.

I'm taking Hank out again tomorrow to a nearby state park where they release pheasants. I'll see how he does....after reading this thread I'm kind of hoping he leaves my sight. I think I'll just keep my mouth shut the whole time and see what happens...

No one addressed the fact that he healed up with another hunter. How strange is that? I'm assuming it was all he knew to do to stop the stimulation, but he had to hear me yelling "here" as I got closer to him, but he just wouldn't leave that guy's side. It's the first time in 9 months I've questioned my dog's intelligence...

[ezzy333]

Not unusual for a young dog that knows he has to come to stop the stimulation. He doesn't know he has to come to you.

Ezzy

[gonehuntin']

How did you teach "here"?

If you are using an e-collar, the collar should be overlaid the check cord on the command "here." That is to say, once the dog is responding to the "here" command and a quick sharp tug from the check cord and coming to you on his own (not being reeled in), overlay a very light "tap" from the e-collar (it should just barely make the dog twitch) with the quick sharp tug from the check cord. This will be your new "cue" to refocus your dog and remind him to respond to your command. The association becomes a verbal cue (the command "here"), quickly followed by a physical cue (first the tug on the cc and later overlaid and substituted by the "tap" of the e-collar), with the dog's response (coming to you).

Now, when a dog becomes interested in something that is more exciting than your command "here," you will have to increase the level of stimulation of the "tap" to match the item of interest, break the dog's focus, and regain the dog's attention. For instance, in the yard when you call the dog and it is sniffing something, a very light tap is all that is needed because the item being sniffed is not all that interesting. However, if a dog takes off after a bird or a rabbit you are going to have slowly increase the level of stimulation to match the level of excitement of the chase. The scenario might go something like this: the dog gives chase and you command "here." The dog continues to chase, and you repeat "here" with a tap at level one. No response. Again, repeat "here" with a tap at level two. No response. And again repeat "here" with a tap at level three. At that point the dog turns and begins to come to you. The whole process should take place in 10 seconds or less. Most dogs turn around after the second tap. Occasionally, you will find a hard headed dog that will attempt to run through the collar. It is important that you win this battle and that the dog refocus on you and complete the command. Should you have to turn your collar way up to do this, be sure and turn it down again. Once the dog knows you can run up the juice if need be, the dog will comply and refocus on your cue at the lower settings.

It is important that you understand that this "tap" is not a correction or punishment, but rather a "cue" to refocus the dog's attention on a previously taught association. That is why the "tap" should be set at the lowest possible level that you are sure the dog feels. It is designed to work in a similar manner to that tug that you started with on the check cord.

Finally, if you have taught "here" using this method, and you know the dog can hear you, the dog should understand that the "tap" is a cue associated with your command to return and has nothing to do with the bird.

Sounds like your pup is ready to learn stop to incidental flush.

+1. That's a great post and right on. If they won't come in the yard, they sure won't come to you in the field.

[Moojoo]

Today went much better...but I never needed to turn on the beeper collar.

He stayed a little too close but once we got into birds he started to leave my sight for 5-10 seconds. He held some excellent points and after climbing into junk I was convinced didn't hold birds, they flushed and I was left trying to get my feet under me and never got a shot. On the last point of the day I managed to fire up in the air (other hunters were out in front of me) just to keep him exposed to gunfire....which he has never reacted to.

I kept my mouth shut, didn't blow a whistle, and didn't use the ecollar once. It seems we're moving in the right direction after our minor setback last weekend. After two hours he was definitely building confidence again and though he still yo-yoed (I think that's what you call it), his checking in came less regularly as the day went on.

Seeing him lock-in on point was worth it all....even if I didn't come home with a bird.

I was afraid I created a boot licker.....but he loves to hunt too much. He just needs to know I trust him at this point. I'm definitely the weakest link in this relationship....

[ezzy333]

Just a word to make you feel better. I don't think you can do much harm with a single experience no matter what it is, just like you can't do much good with a single experience. That doesn't mean to get careless but relax a little and you and the pup will both make mistakes but it will get better. It would be my guess that when your pup turns 20 and you turn 90 most of your mistakes will be behind both of you. But till then there will be many.

Ezzy

[kensfishing]

Two things I was told by 2 different experienced dog guys.
1. Never let your dog do anything in training or hunting that you would get thrown out in a trial for.
If you don't trial the idea is always train for the finished dog. I don't let dogs chase birds ever. Especially when they are young in training. If they are allowed to chase its a very hard habit to break. If a dog chases a bird in a field trial YOUR OUT! So never allow your dog to chase. Delayed chase, relocate on its own, or chase a running dog. The correct way to handle a dog is to move the dog up after he established point. Never let him move up on his own. This will keep him from chasing at any time. Never let a dog chase a flushed bird or covey. If he does and has been trained to come to the "Here" command, you have all the right to use the collar. If you don't you have told the dog he doesn't need to listen to you after the first command. The collar is not a punishment only an extension of your check cord. Just like in the initial training after the command a slight tug on the collar follows. 578sle's instruction are dead on for training "Here".
2. The good ones always come back.
All of us that have run big running dogs like All Age dogs have lost dogs. I have lost them for as long as 5 hours in summer camp last year. You do what you can to find them but at some point in the dark you have to give up and wait until daylight. Many great dogs in our breed have run off never to be found or hit by a car. While hunting or Field Trialing always use a tracking collar. The Garmin tracking unit is the best tracking unit I have ever used. If you use them every time you let your dog loose your probably not going to lose them. They take some getting used to but are pretty much idiot proof. They have a compass and distance mode that will tell you exactly what direction and how far away in most conditions. More so than Wildlife Materials, Marshal, Tracker etc. The signal on the Garmin doesn't bounce off hills. But even as hard as you try some get away. Mine ran off last summer while we were putting dogs up about a half hour before dark. I tried for hours to find him since he had not tracking collar and about 2 hours into looking in the rain and sleet I said thats enough. If he smart he'll come back. Cant say i didnt go to bed with that knot in my stomach and said a gang of prayers but the truth is a smart dog will come look for you. Best advise for a dog that likes to go, Buy a tracking collar. Us field trial people train them to get out there. Many times they are out of sight. You have to trust your dog and have a little insurance with the tracking collar.

Good info Carl. I lost MIke in the White Mountains during the Shooting dog. The terrain was a nightmare and a major storm was right on top of us. We couldn't get across any of the cattle guards or fences. The Radio Tracker bounced a signal every where. Any way he was gone two days. The Purina people saw him on the main road north of Big Lake. About ten miles. They followed him all the way around the lake to the trial grounds and found him on point. Wish Garmin was out then. I have four collars and love them.