Some FF work with the pup

[Munster]

I started this diffrent FF methos with my 10 mos old. There is no table, no ear pinch and no toe pinching. It is all done with pressure on the collar. Pressure is placed behind the ears, I give the fetch cammand to him and as soon as he touches it with his mouth the pressure is relieved.
Next step is to introduce the ecollar to him to replace the collar pressure. What I like about this method is how much he enjoys it rather then fears it. You can tell by his body language that he wants more.
Here is a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhyCL1jTZ6c

Here is his 3rd day of Obedience training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDNadeXoyLg

Still have a ways to go and I need to add distractions yet.

Here is a video of a little issue I am having with him when he retrieves. Sometimes I cant tell if he is being playful or getting possesive. There have been times that he has raised his hackles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfYJVasV-a8

Just a couple of videos for you all to chew on and give me some of your thoughts.

EDIT: admin fixing TITLE -- r

[Maurice]

Nice job.. Is that a Bill West style collar?

Mo

[PntrRookie]

Nice job Munster...FWIW (you may already know this) when he brings the dummy/retrieve back, as in the last video, make him come ALL THE WAY to heel next to you and hold it for a second or two, then have him release. The more you reach for the dummy, as he is in front of you, it will encourage the "keep-a-way", and down the road he may not bring it all the way back. He is having FUN now and looks like he knows what heel means, so make him come all the way with it. Man I wish my GSP would have done that 12 years ago

[Munster]

Yes, that is a Bill West/Dave Walker collar. I love it.

Thanks, I am working on that now to eliminate the bark/growl thing that is going on. I have only worked on heel 3-4 tiomes, so he doesnt quit get it yet. But I am happy with how he coming along.

Thanks for the comments

[Cajun Casey]

It looks like he's playing in the retrieving video. I don't get why you would set him up at heel for the first throw, then let him do whatever he wanted on the return and subsequent throws. Wouldn't it be easier to train to the desired finish position from the very beginning?

[Munster]

It looks like he's playing in the retrieving video. I don't get why you would set him up at heel for the first throw, then let him do whatever he wanted on the return and subsequent throws. Wouldn't it be easier to train to the desired finish position from the very beginning?

Sure would. But I in that video I wasnt looking for input on his obedience. I made that video to get ideas on what his behaviour is. Is what he doing something that starts as play but may turn aggressive? There are times when he will hackle up on me while he is barking and growling.But most seem to think it is play and just being excited about the bumper.

I have since began working on a more controlled retrieve. I have him sit and wait, I throw and have been trying to get him to sit and present the bumper. Problem is during this he has forgotten what sit means when he has a bumper. It is all a work in progress.

I am just kinda messing around. I need to get a plan on how I want things done. I have heard that for his HZP he will have to present the game to me, but I havent read the rules yet.

[jlp8cornell]

I have only worked on heel 3-4 tiomes, so he doesnt quit get it yet

He looks great for you only doing a few heeling sessions with him. If you want to keep him for forging and wrapping in front of you, only give treats from your left hand and at your hip and in heel position. That will keep him from looking for your right hand and coming out in front of you.

Great work!

[Munster]

I will keep that in mind!

I dont normally use treats at all. I am trying something new as he is a VERY diffrent dog then my female. He is less forgiving and very flighty. I just dont want people down the road thinking I was harsh to him. It is just how he is.

[jlp8cornell]

His attitude seems great and he is happily working- I wouldn't change how you train.

[Coveyrise64]

Is the loop behind the back the dog does on your 180 turns something you want to happen. I prefer the dog stay in sight at all times so I cross over to make a left turn. What you might see later on in your retrieves is the dog looping behind on the delivery. Glad to see you are doing your home work.....

Coveyrise64

[gonehuntin']

He looks good for a pup but I want you to keep several things in mind:

1). You can't say you're forcing him, you're just really teaching him to hold. You have put no pressure on him. If he stops retrieving all together, what will you do? You will have no tools to use to correct him.

2). I would never be teaching him sit and down at his age. One you start working him in the field and his is staunch, then go back and teach it. Now, when you teach him whoa, sit or down may become his default response.

3). I would never allow him to bark or growl at me. He is one step away from playing keep away with that bumper. Generally, you obedience train a dog first, and only when he is nearly done do you start force.

A lot of times training goes smoothly at this age but at two, it all comes apart. Be on guard.

[Munster]

He looks good for a pup but I want you to keep several things in mind:

1). You can't say you're forcing him, you're just really teaching him to hold. You have put no pressure on him. If he stops retrieving all together, what will you do? You will have no tools to use to correct him.

2). I would never be teaching him sit and down at his age. One you start working him in the field and his is staunch, then go back and teach it. Now, when you teach him whoa, sit or down may become his default response.

3). I would never allow him to bark or growl at me. He is one step away from playing keep away with that bumper. Generally, you obedience train a dog first, and only when he is nearly done do you start force.

A lot of times training goes smoothly at this age but at two, it all comes apart. Be on guard.

The pressure comes from the collar and soon the overlay of the Ecollar. I started that last night. I know it is diffrent, but I have seen it done on a few dogs with good success.

The sit and down thing I agree with, but with him being a house dog I needed to gain a little bit of control. He is a big dog and we have some small company sometimes. I am hoping it wont become his default.

I also agree with the bark/growl thing. I am working on that now.

and yes, I am dreading the terrible two's!

[4dabirds]

I cant speak for this method but my impression of force retrieve is that the force is what compels the dog to comply with the command . The end game is a dog that will retrieve from water when its cold, continue to search when its hot and bring home the game. I force retrieve trained my 2 year old setter this summer. He was retrieving every thing I put in front of him hats, bumpers , pipes,dowels . Then I tried to get him to hold a pigeon, thats when the force came in. The funny thing was it was the only thing he would try to get from me when not on the table. Only after using the toe hitch and the ecollar simultaneously did he take the pigeon. This is a very difficult thing to do to your own dog ,but in the end he has retrieved every bird we hit, to hand this season . If you come to a point where the collar is not enough what is the backup plan. Without using the original base loading of the force you can not implement a different force later on. It may work very well for many dogs I just would not want to find out after all of the effort that it did not work on mine. Also as far as the sit, dogs will default to what they know best or what they learned last. For a pointing you need to have whoa be the most known command. I would go so far as to say it is the only command they need. Its the one command that keeps them safe , if the dog whoas you can go out and get them and when they default on a bird it is usually what you want to happen .You can teach sit as long as it does not become more ingrained than whoa. I personally concentrated on a good whoa before all else. The dog barking and growling is the dogs strategy to get you to give him what he wants. If you continue to comply with him he will continue to use this strategy for everything he wants. Every repetition of this will reinforce the behavior Bark to go out, bark for food etc. When the dog tries this strategy you must not give in and wait for the dog to try something different or put a different behavior in like sitting or healing. Also it is not a good idea to use food reward for fetch because it encourages the dog to drop the item before you take it.