GSP Flagging

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gsp3333
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GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:36 pm

Have a 7 month old female that is progressing well. However she is flagging on her points. Any help would be great.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:46 am

You're not giving out with a lot of info here. My guess is, you have her under too much pressure, you're using too many birds on her, or the set up looks artificial to her and the excitement's gone from it.

It's hard to say with the little you've said, but those are the usual causes.
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:48 am

gonehuntin' wrote:...too much pressure, and the excitement's gone.,.
My guess too.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:02 am

I don't believe I'm putting too much pressure on her but I could be wrong. I took her off birds for a couple of weeks as she was not pointing,just busting them. I took advice from other threads and started with launchers. She is pointing and holding much better but the tail goes 90mph. I can only get her in the field once a week and will give her about 4-5 birds in a couple of sessions.I am not using an e-collar on her yet. She hunts like no tomorrw and quaters great. Retrieves are not to hand yet but getting close. Hpoe this helps you help us.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:33 am

Do a video of how you are using the launchers. I am a proponent of launchers when done right. But even then some dogs don't respond to them the way we want. Sometimes they know something is different. More info still would help.
Rick
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by mudhunter » Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:32 pm

I really cringe when I watch people give advice about something like flagging online. Flagging can mean a lot of different thing. Some dogs flag because they want to go in and eat the bird. Some dogs flag because they had too much pressure. Some dogs flag because that's what they do (yes some just have it in their blood). Fixing the problem is all depend on why the dog is flagging.

Best advice is to see a good pro or amateur that has experience with the problem and can see the dog and evaluate.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:58 pm

I'm letting her point the bird in the launcher and then let it fly. I hide the launcher as to not let her sight point them. The trainer I'm working with says she is a spoiled rotten house dog and I don't argue that point as she is. Her breeder is coming out from Kansas in Janurary, maybe he will have an answer. I would like to have this resolved before he gets here. What info am I leaving out?

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:21 pm

She hasnt learned what will happen with her decisions. Traps are hard to use in this style of non pointing fix, now she is flagging anticipating the flush. The flush is man made, and she knows it. There was a topic a while back that I chimed in on, I explained what and why, I will try an find an give you the topic title. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by tailcrackin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:27 pm

Need help training my gsp to point, was the topic twards the bottom of this page in training. You read threw, what others said, and my discussion with them. This dog reaction is why I said, to not use launchers, it is pointing because it has to, its not doing it because it wants to, there is a difference......now we are seeing the after effects that I tried to help prevent in the other topic. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by kensfishing » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:50 pm

gsp3333 wrote:Have a 7 month old female that is progressing well. However she is flagging on her points. Any help would be great.
She's only seven months old. She's still a kid. Get rid of the launchers and let her grow up and get confidence. We expect too much from young dogs. You don't send a five year old kid to college and expect 4.0.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Ruffshooter » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:48 am

Some how I missed the 7 monthold thing. Loose the launchers.
Sorry.
Rick
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Don
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Don » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:24 pm

Been trying to login since yesterday and had to go to a friends computer to do it. Mine won'tnshow the login line.

Anyway age is only part of it. From what was wrote by the op, he's not using the trap right in the first place. A wild bird will not allow a dog to do that unless it's way off! YOU HAVE TO BE THE BIRD, QUIT BEING THE TRAINER!
gsp3333 wrote:I'm letting her point the bird in the launcher and then let it fly. I hide the launcher as to not let her sight point them. The trainer I'm working with says she is a spoiled rotten house dog and I don't argue that point as she is. Her breeder is coming out from Kansas in Janurary, maybe he will have an answer. I would like to have this resolved before he gets here. What info am I leaving out?
The pup is not pointing the bird at all. It's coming on it and just stopping and standing there. It's probably flagging in anticipation of you coming over and flushing it. This is not a pressure deal, it's confussion. Quit trying to make the pup point! I'd put the trap back out there but I would not let the pup point the bird, or get stopped until it beats the flush. I've said it many times, the trap allows you to make the bird act like a wild bird and you are not doing that. No wild bird is going to allow that pup to come over to it, stop and wag it's tail till YOU get ready to flush it. What will happen is that the pup will come around and bunp the bird and it will leave. Question, you used hands on to stop the pup on the bird didn't you? Took the pup there on a check cord? The pup is doing exactly what you taught it to do!
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:42 am

Don. No I do not lead her into the bird on a cc and do not stop her from bumping it. That is why I started with launchers as she was just busting them without a point. With the launchers she is now pointing and holding. Just that dang tail flagging.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:52 am

Don. I am not leading her in or stopping her. I let her do her thing without hacking her. She was not pointing just busting them so I started with the launchers. She is now pointing and holding but flagging. I believe you may be right about the anticipation of me flushing the bird. If so what way do we go with this?

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Sprig
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Sprig » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:31 pm

i have a GSP that flags a bit and i have noticed it gets worse when i keep doing the same thing, use the same birds in the same area....try going to a new area and use a different bird, i.e. if your using quail, try a pheasant, etc...also if you are just launching birds, shooting a few will also help some times.....sometimes flagging is an environmental issue but sometimes it is also genetic and it will just be there.....change things up for the dog and do something new in training and see if that helps

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:17 pm

For every action, there is a reaction.
What do you feel is honestly causing the reaction?
Dog is now pointing because it has to, not because it wants to. Why is that? There is a difference in the dogs train of thoughts, and its actions doing it......as we now see. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:25 pm

Before you can fix a booger properly, you need to try and figure out as best as ya can, what caused the booger, to arise. Maybe this will help you in thought? Thanks Jonesy
"Don't make it happen. Get it ready and let it happen"
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:06 pm

I believe she is flagging from pure excitement. She comes from great lines and only gets in the field once a week. When she hits the field it's game on and not a bit of puppy shows other than her,my,mistakes. I'm a novice and am training with a great guy who has a wonderful gsp that he trained. Just trying to figure out this flagging.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Don » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:15 pm

I absolutely believe that what he dis doing is useing the trap wrong. Once she stopped he'd give her a step or two or a twicth of the tail befor he launched the bird. Never allow that. If the trap is used to simulate what a wild bird will do, what has happened won't happen. We have all heard about the dog that flags training birds but not the real thing, that's because the training birds don't act the same and the dog recognizes the set up. Reproduce the action of the real thing with the trap and it all goes away.

GSP3333 I got something for you to try and I think it will fix your problem pretty quick. You got nothing to lose to try it. Go out and set the traps and then take her for a walk. Just as soon as she show game pop the bird and say nothing. If she passes close up wind and doesn't wind it, pop it any way. I stronly suspect that withing ten or twelve birds she will stop flagging. Once she does, she will probably start when you enter the picture. She so much as bats an eye, pop the bird. If you make it real for her she'll do it. If you keep running it like a set up she won't. Remember what you wrote earlier. You let her go on point then you flushed the bird. She wasn't on point, she was standing there waiting for what she knew was going tom happen. Soon as her tail flips any noticeable movement at all, pop the bird. She'll learn to handle the bird then, now she's playing your game. Remember, no mercy, she bangs the bird with no movement at all as soon as she winds it or the bird is gone. That is what a wild bird would do to her. Take you about a half hour and say nothing thru the whole thing. I suspect after several times she will break and try to catch the bird. Thjat is not a step backward, it is forward for now she really wants the bird. Try that and let us knows what happens. You have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:24 pm

Thanks Don,I will try that tomorrow. We are going to a new field and I will let you know how it goes.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by tailcrackin » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:49 pm

I wont argue, and totally understand that you are a novice, in my book, you are just as good as anyone, so dont hold that over your head, its not fair to you or the dog. A dog will always read your eyes, voice, and touch. If you are not confident in your work, the dog wont be either. I am only passing on things to help you out, plus have in the back of your head. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:31 pm

Thanks Jonesy. All you guys are very helpful . Going out in the field with a new attitude.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Don » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:53 pm

Dogs are very good at reading us, we need to be as good back. Keep quiet for now, keep moving and don't give her the opertunity to blow it. This is not an unsurmountable situation you have. Think of tomorrow that your gonna take her out happy timing where there wild birds. You are the wild bird. Funny thing about wild birds. They aren't intrested in teaching a dog anything, they just want to get away. But if they believe the dog has them they are likely to try to ride it out. Because of that they end up teaching the dog one of the most important things the dog needs to learn; the dogs movement moves the bird. Once the dog learns that your about home free. Be the bird!
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Hattrick » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:46 pm

What does ur dog do when you play games with it ? It waggs it tail . You have to keep things different an real. This is a game to him he gets happy when he finds it an waggs his tail when u get close to flush..He knows the game ...Think out of the box a little with ur training these dogs pattern you faster than you pattern them they just want please you. My opion if hes holding point you not need the launcher inless ur popping them early to keep him honest an you should some times. Been sum good advice on this thread..good luck!

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by birddogger » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:02 pm

kensfishing wrote:
gsp3333 wrote:Have a 7 month old female that is progressing well. However she is flagging on her points. Any help would be great.
She's only seven months old. She's still a kid. Get rid of the launchers and let her grow up and get confidence. We expect too much from young dogs. You don't send a five year old kid to college and expect 4.0.
This is my opinion also. This puppy is not mentally ready for formal bird training. Again, this is JMO.

Charlie
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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by BrittGSP818 » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:16 pm

It is excitement and anticipation. Play fetch with her and see if she "flags" her tail while waiting for you to throw the ball. If so, wait till she stops wagging then toss her the ball. This is her reward for not wagging. My pup will almost go on a point when he sees me pick the ball up, he wags, I wait, he stops, I say good boy and toss the ball. Hope this helps, where in So Cal are you?

George

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Redfishkilla » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:59 am

I agree with don about the proper use of the launcher, also, if you can get the pup on any wild birds, I think that might help, even if you can't shoot em. I wouldn't lose any sleep over this one.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by wes_gsp » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:50 pm

Don has gave you some excellent advice. It has worked many times for me to pop the birds and not let them point em. I don't know if it has been brought up yet, but what kind of birds are you using? If you are using pigeons, they could be part of your problem. Many dogs don't give a rip about pointing pigeons and show less intensity then they would on upland game. Before you started using launchers, how many birds did your dog catch?

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by gsp3333 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:31 pm

She caught a couple of pigeons. Don't have enough quail or chukar to use every time out. I don't believe intensity is an issue, age probably is the big issue.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by terrylndrs » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:38 am

She's still a puppy. She'll figure it out. I would get her out on wild birds as much as you can. When she points wild birds don't say anything if she moves let her. The bird will flush and it won't take long for her to figure out she has to stand there and not move. Wild birds can fix alot of problems. If using planted birds don't put them out every tome you go out. She'll get over expecting the birds are there and after a few days with no birds the surprise of a bird will give her more intensity. When she points don't talk to her and if she moves launch the bird at first movement. Don't walk in and flush for a while. Let her figure out she has to stand there first. Then after she will stand for awhile with no movement start working on the flush. To much at once is confusing her. I think the flagging her not knowing what you want her to do.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by wes_gsp » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:53 pm

gsp3333 wrote:She caught a couple of pigeons. Don't have enough quail or chukar to use every time out. I don't believe intensity is an issue, age probably is the big issue.
Age is not the issue at all. A young pup is not born with a natural disposition to flag and grow out of it with time. I would recommend losing the launchers and stop using pigeons.

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Re: GSP Flagging

Post by Clay » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:01 am

Let me start off by saying Im no expert on this subject by anymeans. I have been studing different methods of training and found this field manual on line. It talks about everything you are saying is going on. The web site is www.steadywithstyle.com is written by Maurice Lindley and John L Rogers. He talks about the importance of birds acting like wild birds. I dont know if this will help but sounds like it would steady a dog on point especially a young dog.

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