GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

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DEADBIRDND
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GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by DEADBIRDND » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:20 pm

I just got my 9 month old English Pointer from a breeder. She was trained for a month and was supposed to be good.

I got her home, didn’t hunt for a week due to family obligations. Then when I took her out she would not leave my side. It is to the point where she is actually tripping me.

Today I went out and it was even worse. She walked behind me and whined for a mile and a half.

It was nice and cool so the birds held tight. She wandered about 10 feet to my right once and she had a bird get up 2 feet in front of her and she ran away.

She did not point once. Even had a wounded hen pheasant 2 feet in front of her and she would not even look at it.

We then put her out with an experienced dog. No guns just walking. She kept running back to the truck and sitting next to the tire.

I need help. How do I get her to expand her boundaries and get interested in birds?


Thanks

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:40 pm

Wow
9 months old and trained for a month..What were you expecting for this young of a dog in such a short time?

Did you spend anytime with this "trainer" and see the dogs progress

Your dog sounds like it is in complete shut down which in truth is a common reaction to crash course trainers AND/OR a timid dog which there has been to many changes to fast and she has no confidence in what she is supposed to do

So now to fix what is wrong

First you need to figure out if your dog has any desire for the birds and rebuild that excitement for them if it is there
With out excitement and desire for birds you have little to nothing to really work with


but that is where I would start by just building some confidence in your relation with your dog and go for walks DO NOT get upset with her if she hunkers up under your legs as this will only further the shut down just ignore her and walk on

Good Luck
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:43 pm

If I read this right he just got the dog from the breeder/trainer. He was told it has a months training. Did I get it wrong?

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:52 pm

That is how i read it also

but still 9 months is young dog and a month worth of training?

then the what sounds like lack of building a pack with the dog but even that a dog that has a strong field desire should get excited about being in the field not tripping the owner
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:01 pm

kninebirddog wrote:That is how i read it also

but still 9 months is young dog and a month worth of training?

then the what sounds like lack of building a pack with the dog but even that a dog that has a strong field desire should get excited about being in the field not tripping the owner
You are right but you made it sound like the OP made a mistake. I think he was taken advantage of and completely mislead. The dog can possibly be saved but give this scenario I would be back at the breeder in the morning and get my money back. The effort of fixing the problem just isn't worth it since there is a chance it won't work and he bought something that does not conform to what he was sold.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by redman25 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:20 pm

This is where people get a bad taste in their mouth about breeders and hunting dogs. Just takes one bad apple. Who knows what this dog has been put through to make it so timid. The OP was obviously mislead, get your money back. As for the dog.................

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by BigShooter » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:29 pm

If we back up for a second, the first thing one has to do is establish a bond with a new puppy or dog. Often they just left the only home and the only people they've known. It might take a couple of weeks in new surroundings before the dog starts to get comfortable with its new surrounding and people.

Next we expose the dog to lots of new situations including walks in unfamiliar surroundings & fun runs in fields.

After that's all going fine we build up obedience with repetitive training in the back yard.

We introduce birds, look for interest & as necessary build desire with various techniques.

Folks differ a bit on when to layer in bird introductions in the field.

Before taking a dog out hunting we make certain they've had the proper introduction to the gun.

You're unlikely to find a quality experienced trainer that'll claim they've got a dog ready to do a lot of serious hunting for a brand new owner, without any time to bond with the new owner, at nine months of age. I hunted behind my avatar GSP at six months of age, she was steady until the flush & retrieved about 30 pheasants her first year. However, that is a very unusual situation & I had her from a pup.

Sounds like there's a disconnect between what you expected and what you got. I'm not sure whose fault that is but that dog is going to have to be brought several steps back towards the beginning to fix a number of problems. If you're not up to it as an owner and a trainer you should probably either bring the dog back or get a pro's or very experienced amateur's help.
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ACooper » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:57 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Wow
9 months old and trained for a month..What were you expecting for this young of a dog in such a short time?

Did you spend anytime with this "trainer" and see the dogs progress
Gee wonder why new people are intimidated to post here... :roll:


Lets be honest and cut out all the what ifs and maybes. Most most pointers at 9 mo old are at least a little precocious. The OP never stated he thought the dog was finished at 9 mo. Training/intro or not the pup should have wanted to get out and explore at least.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by its the dog » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:27 pm

9 months is a young dog but not to young to hunt or show you there prey drive or desire to hunt. The first thing is I would of made the breeder/trainer show you what she could do. And second I would take her back and make him show you what she does for him or get your money back. To me there is no other option.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by BigShooter » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:34 pm

Seriously, how many of you would expect every pointer from any breeder at nine months of age, with one month of some kind of training, having spend only one week with a new owner to be bold and perform well out hunting the first time? No doubt some would do well with barely any time to bond & adjust but I certainly wouldn't expect that from every single young pointer.

Now if the breeder represented that the OP could take this particular nine month old home & immediately take it out hunting with no issues, that's another matter and would certainly appear to have been a misrepresentation.
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Tejas » Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:28 am

BigShooter wrote:Seriously, how many of you would expect every pointer from any breeder at nine months of age, with one month of some kind of training, having spend only one week with a new owner to be bold and perform well out hunting the first time? No doubt some would do well with barely any time to bond & adjust but I certainly wouldn't expect that from every single young pointer.

Now if the breeder represented that the OP could take this particular nine month old home & immediately take it out hunting with no issues, that's another matter and would certainly appear to have been a misrepresentation.
Mark,

There's quite a bit of distance between being bold and performing well and what the OP described. I would not expect anything remotely beginning to resemble a broke dog, but I would expect it to have at least been introduced to birds and some inclination to be interested in them with a month's training. What the OP describes is a very timid dog....but, if one looks close enough a glimmer of a question appears. He mentions the dog wasn't even interested in a wounded bird....he then goes further to describe taking the dog for a walk without guns. So we might presume that the first walk was with guns and since there was a wounded bird on the ground perhaps someone fired a gun in the vicinity of the dog. Therefore I would ask the OP to expand his description of what happened to include detail about the firing of guns if any.

It sounds to me as if this dog perhaps had not been introduced to a gun and has a pretty good start on being gun shy. I would follow the advice given earlier of taking the dog back to the trainer and asking him to demonstrate the capabilities of the dog and asking for a refund if the dog had been significantly oversold.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:56 am

ACooper wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:Wow
9 months old and trained for a month..What were you expecting for this young of a dog in such a short time?

Did you spend anytime with this "trainer" and see the dogs progress
Gee wonder why new people are intimidated to post here... :roll:


Lets be honest and cut out all the what ifs and maybes. Most most pointers at 9 mo old are at least a little precocious. The OP never stated he thought the dog was finished at 9 mo. Training/intro or not the pup should have wanted to get out and explore at least.

And I went on to explain on some things to do putting the dog first and getting things in to the perspective of the dog...So yes if you would like to take this ONE part of my post it is very direct to the point.
So lets get back to the dog.

So far people have given from take the dog back to go back to the breeder/trainer and get help from them
to ideas where if the trainer/breeder isn't going to be helpful some things the person can step back and try and build in the dog

Non of us know what is going on in the dogs head we can only guess by the persons post

So now we are awaiting a reply from the owner
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by DEADBIRDND » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:02 am

I think I should have clarified a little more. She was worked with the breeder for about 3 months and then a trainer took her to Idaho and worked with her for a month before she was given to me.

I know that is still not a lot of time but its not that she is just afraid of birds in the feild, I had a dead bird in my garage that I was thinking about mounting. I took it out and showed it to her and she shook like a leaf. She backed away with her tail down.

When she was hunting in Nevada and Idaho with the breeder and trainer she was supposedly the best of the four puppies. Also, the trainer still has the other three and I ahve seen them hunt and they are absolute CHAMPS. Very bold and strong runners.

My wife thinks something bad happened to her for her to be so afraid of birds.

Hope this helps

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:13 am

If this is the case yes I would talk to the person you got her from and explain what is going on maybe home life is not the dogs cup of coffee

There are so many things that can change a dog and since dogs can't explain to us all we have is their actions and reactions to things to go off of like it could be as simple as the dog just didn't like being uprooted from what they thought was home and is intimidated by you I do not mean this in a bad way on you but you just never know what goes on in a dogs mind and what they think is scary and inadvertently things that were good with the trainer are scary with you I have seen this happen where a dog just didn't like being with one family was brought back and the new family the dog went on like life was perfect

So go talk to the breeder maybe see if he has another dog that is better suited for you and your family

Good Luck
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If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by DEADBIRDND » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:26 am

He has offered me a different dog, one of the other three litter mates of my dog. I am a tad reluctant to take one from this litter. He is also having a litter of GSP's in the spring.

I agree with your position. This dog was kennel born, raised and trained. At 9 months he was brought into our home as a pet. My wife and kids have spoiled her with love, toys and even clothing. She has a spot on the couch even.

Another problem may be she was country raised dog. Now she is a town dog.

Could be a lot of factors. My biggest problem is I hate giving up. If I give this dog back I will have said I give up on her and I really don’t want to. She has a TON of energy. I just want this energy to be directed to BIRDS.

It is a dilemma that I will have to make a decision soon.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:25 am

It sounds like you are getting some great advice . Although it is impossible to know what is going on here without seeing the dog. My friend had a problem with a dog , got him back from the trainer and the dog would not leave his side , would not hunt. He called the trainer a little miffed. Thats when the trainer realized he never gave my friend the release command . Dog turned out to be world class! Learning to handle the way the trainer did is as important as the training.
Last edited by 4dabirds on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:39 am

DEADBIRDND wrote:He has offered me a different dog, one of the other three litter mates of my dog. I am a tad reluctant to take one from this litter. He is also having a litter of GSP's in the spring.

I agree with your position. This dog was kennel born, raised and trained. At 9 months he was brought into our home as a pet. My wife and kids have spoiled her with love, toys and even clothing. She has a spot on the couch even.

Another problem may be she was country raised dog. Now she is a town dog.

Could be a lot of factors. My biggest problem is I hate giving up. If I give this dog back I will have said I give up on her and I really don’t want to. She has a TON of energy. I just want this energy to be directed to BIRDS.

It is a dilemma that I will have to make a decision soon.
if you can maybe you and the dog go back to the trainer/Breeder and work together see if you can build her up to be confident with you..

Sometimes it really isn't about giving up it is doing what maybe best for the dog yes it is a fine line but at this point you don't have a bunch of time invested I know that sounds kinda cruel but the longer you do try and work with her and IF it doesn't work out it will be harder down the line for both her and you and your family

Good Luck Wish there was an easier answer :(
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by tommyboy72 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:06 pm

Guys I just want to interject that my 10 month old Pointer pup is running out to about 4 or 500 yards, is completely gunproofed, e collar trained, whistle trained, is retrieving everything I shoot from dove in September at 7 months old to quail earlier this week and pheasant yesterday at 10 months old, and is finding birds really well, all on wild birds. He is still bumping birds and learning how much he can push them before he gets too close and they flush but he stops to flush every time. The OP should at least expect the pup to get out and hunt birds. Maybe he should not expect as much as I do at that early an age but I would definitely try and get my money back. Like it was stated it is going to be more work than it is worth to get this pup on track. JMO.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ACooper » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:22 pm

BigShooter wrote:Seriously, how many of you would expect every pointer from any breeder at nine months of age, with one month of some kind of training, having spend only one week with a new owner to be bold and perform well out hunting the first time? No doubt some would do well with barely any time to bond & adjust but I certainly wouldn't expect that from every single young pointer.

Now if the breeder represented that the OP could take this particular nine month old home & immediately take it out hunting with no issues, that's another matter and would certainly appear to have been a misrepresentation.
Mark from your post it sounds as if you are saying the way the OP's dog is normal considering the circumstances, and that some of us had to high of expectations for a 9 mo old pup? Or did I misunderstand?

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by BigShooter » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:09 pm

What I was trying to say is we didn't know enough, none of us knew how the dog was with the breeder & the trainer. We didn't know exactly how the transportation went & how the short bonding period went. It wouldn't be unusual for a non-house dog to have potty accidents in their new home & how was that managed? We didn't know if the dog was fine before but if the dog was fine before, none of us, including the owner, knew what caused the dog to shut down either. I expect younger dogs are more prone to shutting down than older dogs that have become veteran travelers due to lots of exposure to new circumstances and being shuttled several times between various people at different locations.

Personally I would not expect every single nine month old to smoothly handle every possible set of circumstances that can occur with a transition, followed by a very short bonding period. Personally I would give a new dog to my home more time to get acclimated before I took it out hunting.

Without a transition like this dog experienced, I do expect there are lots of young dogs about that age from a number of different gun dog breeds that would be gung ho out in the field, especially with the right training.
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by DEADBIRDND » Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:10 pm

So lets start with this:

How do I get her away from me? I obviously dont really care about birds at this point, I just want her to run. After she runs and expands her boundries, I can teach her how to hunt a bird.

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by asc » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:02 pm

Give it back to the trainer = .05 solution to the head. You stated that your wife and kids have already spoiled this dog, maybe talk to a different trainer or two about about your pup. Worth a shot(no pun intended) IMO.
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:39 pm

DEADBIRDND wrote:So lets start with this:

How do I get her away from me? I obviously dont really care about birds at this point, I just want her to run. After she runs and expands her boundries, I can teach her how to hunt a bird.
have you found anything that she loves

maybe try a ball if she will do that get her all excited at home and always leave her wanting more if you see her slow down even a little stop right there

then another thing is

Try going for some walks go to areas where it is open make these walks on a leash when she starts to pull on you let the leash go and don't say a word just go for walks

then when she is getting comfortable bring along the game from home and then try in the field a couple time

this can take a couple times it can take weeks even months

lots of patience's look for that excitement in the eyes

another thing on some yard work the Rick Smith command lead and method can also help her get through some things but to try this I would seriously suggest going to a seminar for to do it properly the hands on at the seminar with Rick or Ronnie guidance they can give you things to work on to help her and you
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Don » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:12 am

I thin k your wife is right, something nhappened to make her that way. I also don't think you've had her long enought for the wife and kids to mhave gotten that attached. If they really have work a deal to keep her and get another pup. No reason to have to work thru a problem like this with a pup you've had for only a short time. If that pup had been laying around in a kennel for nine months I would expect more of it than your talking about. Listen to your wife, something happened to it!
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Vman » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:45 am

As mentioned it could be many things and you may never know what actually happened. But only because nobody else has mentioned this I will throw this out there. Try running her with a bracemate or two. I could easily read into your post that she was ran with other dogs and now she is alone with you. Many times the trainer will run a pup with others. With another dog she could very well tear the field up because she is out there just being a pup. If you are going to try and salvage this dog you will need to build the dogs confidence and desire. You will need to identify the problem in order to fix it. Go run her with another pup her age and see what she does. It will tell us something.
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by BigShooter » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:24 pm

FWIW this is what I would've done:

1. Call breeder & trainer. Give them the facts & describe the dog's behavior. Ask for their thoughts.
2. Based upon what you and your family thinks & what the breeder & trainer say, make the decision to keep the dog or get a different one.

If you decide to keep the dog;

3. Start from square one, like it's a new puppy. Don't put any pressure on the young dog. Nothing but encouragement & positive reinforcement.
4. Lots of happy play time. Find a toy it likes, ball, kong with peanut butter inside, etc. If playing with other dogs, monitor & don't allow any other young or old dogs to display dominance behavior with your dog.
5. Take the dog with you every chance you get. Runs to the grocery store, the pet shop etc.
6. Walks on a leash & as knine says if it pulls let the leash go.
7. In the back yard (fenced I hope). Have a family member stand with the dog. Another family member stands a short distance away & calls the dog. Lots of praise when she comes. With continued success, increase the distance and eventually move to a large area where the young dog can cross a significant distance to come to the other person. You can also encourage running around, further away from you if it will chase a ball.
8. Graduate to free runs without other dogs around if possible (unless they are well known playmates).
9. Forget about birds or bird scent until the dogs starts acting like it feels secure.

With kids & dogs women are often more intuitive & tuned into what is going on. Your wife is most likely correct and can be of great assistance in building this dog's confidence. There are never any guarantees , you have an uphill row to hoe but the dog is young and with persistence and patience I think your chances are better than 50/50 that you can get a young dog over this. This assumes the scaredy-cat gene doesn't run in this litter.

JMO
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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ISAYWHOANOW » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:25 pm

The dog is gun shy and blinking birds.. you got screwed straight up. I would not take anything from that breeder!!!! surely not another dog. i would take the dog to the pound or return it to the breeder. It surely aint worth the time to try and fix. I feel for you. What did that pup cost you?? If I may ask?

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Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:46 pm

Big Shooter has given you a very good procedure to follow. I think we all agree the pup has a problem but what you do with it is up to you. You can try to fix it or you can try to return the pup. One way you are saying I hope I can fix th problem. The other way says I give up. As you see from the answers you got some would do it each way. and I don't think you can be faulted on either choice you decide to make. Just know going in you may not succeed in fixing the problem but you probably can make it better to some degree. But out of common courtesy you need to talk to the breeder and get his input before you make up your mind,

Not a single one of us know what the problem is and not a single one of us know for sure how or if it can be fixed. But we do know it won't be fixed here on the forum and it won't be fixed if you don't try. But there is nothing wrong with you if you decide it isn't worth the effort given the fact that you might not succeed.

Let us know what you decide and keep us abreast of whats happening.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Lilly_The_Lab
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:35 am
Location: PORTAGE PENNSYLVANIA

Re: GET AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Lilly_The_Lab » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:39 am

I am not an expert but i can go from what my experiences were with my 5 month old lab. We got her at 3 months. She was brought up in the "country" in an outside kennel with very few sounds. Against my advice my wife made me take her to petco on the way home. At hearing all of the commotion she huttled to the ground and wouldnt move. The first day i had her in the woods or even walking on the road she was almost tripping me.

I have really worked on obedience and building a BOND with her. She will follow me anywhere now. She is fearless and trust my every move. I am still working on getting her out in front of me in the tall grass and brush but i learned one thing TIME!!! She gos into the brush on her own and "figures it out" I was so excited and thought everything should be automatic. It is better to sit back and see it all come together. You can watch a "game of fetch" with a wing or frozen bird turn into her actually hunting right in front of your eyes. You need to build your bond and keep your dog out in the woods. I think through you bond and his exposure to all kinds of situations you will see him progress well.

At 5 months and 2 months of training Lilly will now zig zag in front of me and check out brush piles. She is picking up a lot on her own.She is in no way ready to hunt birds but she is building it up for next season. I think when she puts up that first bird it will be automatic. Plus it will be more rewarding to see you pup you spent every day for a year with put up a bird because of what you taught him not just dumb luck or something.

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