"Whoa" Questions

[wills1235]

As a few of you may already know, I'm waiting for my first GSP pup to arrive if February. I've been doing a bunch of reading up on training, and I've got some questions about whoa. I've heard it described as a "yard" command. I've read that it can't be used around birds- which makes sense to me, if the dog knows where the birds are and how to point them, who am I to tell him whoa? Anyhow I am looking for some opinions and feedback on the whoa command.

[slistoe]

If you do not plan to steady your dog the whoa command has little to no utilitarian value.

[kninebirddog]

When a dog is young I do not like to do much on whoaing a dog on point

I work on getting to be still after the bird is in the air...If you work on the after the bird is in the air it takes a lot of pressure of a young dogs training

after we establish standing still while bird it in the air with points of contact meaning stop stand still we get the stop to flush

But once a dog has had the routines and knows it job and starts to get lax and needs a reminder Then I will remind them while they are on point but again I stress this is once a dog fully knows what their job is and just needs a reminder

So the when and where all depends on how much they know and how far they are in their training

[ezzy333]

And just as a warning that most new gun dog owners need is your pup is just a pup for most of the first year and the second year is when most of the heavy training starts. For this first year take care of the yard chores you want to do such as teaching come, kennel, down, heal or what ever little manners type command you need so the puppy can fit into your family life. And spend as much time as possible socializing and exploring in the field as you can. Let the puppy be a puppy first.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

When a dog is young I do not like to do much on whoaing a dog on point

To clarify on this I will work a pup on an occasional point and back exercise with a check cord and the whoaing consists of NO words just impeding forward motion once the pup has caught a good scent of the bird and will impeded that forward motion until the pup is standing on their own then have a helper then come in and flush the bird for the pup to see..but the pup will have to be standing on their own before that bird gets flushed

it is important for a young dog to be allowed to grow up but in the process of growing up it can be groomed to become a bird dog in the process by making it fun games

[wills1235]

Thanks for the input. One of the reasons I ask this is that one book I've read says not to train the pup "sit" because it may make "whoa" harder to train. I find it hard to imagine a pup that can't "sit" having any manners. What I'm getting from some of the feedback is that "whoa" is connected to "hold to wing and shot"? If not, what is "whoa" useful for if you have a pup that points solid and you don't intend to hold to shot? This is a pure hunting dog, I don't intend to do any show or field trial. Thanks again for taking the time to answer rookie questions.

[slistoe]

There is nothing special about sit and manners. I do not teach any of my pointing dogs sit because I have no need for it. They come in the house and anyone who meets them is always impressed with how calm and mannerly they are. They know whoa and know it very well - all of my dogs are eventually steady. Most importantly they know NO. They stand, sit or lie down of their own accord as they see fit, but they do not intrude upon people space unless asked.

For regular manners teach sit if you feel you need it (classical doggy manners) but realize that it may cause extra training effort should you try to put any manners on the dog for after you approach the point.

Many folks will tout the safety benefits of the whoa command but if you are going the sit route then a properly taught remote sit is equally as effective as the remote whoa. Very, very few folks that I have seen whose dogs know "whoa" can actually whoa the dog at 100 yards away and have them stay. Outside of competitive retriever circles I can't recall seeing a dog with a reliable remote sit.

[RayGubernat]

To me the "whoa" command is, first and foremost an obedience command. It means stop instantly and grow roots right where you are. There are only four command I teach my dogs that i demand unquestioning compliance. They are: Come. Kennel, Whoa and Heel.

I begin to instill this command at a fairly early age in my pups though use of Paul Long's heel/whoa drill. this is a wordless(silent) drill. The pup is restrained by a looped checkcord(ala Mr. Long) or , in my case, a wonder lead. You start with the pup at your side with the lead close to your body and with almost no slack.

Then you step off walking for perhaps ten steps in one direction. If the pup decides to go any way but with you, the loop closes and puts pressure on the dog. As soon as the dog goes next to your knee and comes with you...the pressure stops.

Then you come to and abrupt stop. Again, if the pup continues, that causes the loop to close and apply pressure. If the pup stops right as you stop... there is no pressure. They figure that out VERY quickly.

Anyway, that is the essence of the method. It encourages the dog to keep a close eye on YOU and where you are going and what you are doing. It is all done silently, because you want the pup to watch YOU. Short lessons, 3-5 minutes each, repeated twice or more daily.

Down the road, I overlay verbal and visual commands, introduce direction changes and transition from a looped cord to a prong collar and then an e-collar. I then introduce the command at a distance. This is all done, step by step.

Incidentally, I am of the opinion that most folks(myself included) do not teach their bird dogs to sit because they may take the "sit" position as a "pressure escape" position. A bird dog that sits, or lays down on point is not what is customarily looked for.

I have found that once the dog has a solid foundation in obedience, the field work goes very much smoother and easier and safer.

RayG

[kensfishing]

To me the "whoa" command is, first and foremost an obedience command. It means stop instantly and grow roots right where you are. There are only four command I teach my dogs that i demand unquestioning compliance. They are: Come. Kennel, Whoa and Heel.

I begin to instill this command at a fairly early age in my pups though use of Paul Long's heel/whoa drill. this is a wordless(silent) drill. The pup is restrained by a looped checkcord(ala Mr. Long) or , in my case, a wonder lead. You start with the pup at your side with the lead close to your body and with almost no slack.

Then you step off walking for perhaps ten steps in one direction. If the pup decides to go any way but with you, the loop closes and puts pressure on the dog. As soon as the dog goes next to your knee and comes with you...the pressure stops.

Then you come to and abrupt stop. Again, if the pup continues, that causes the loop to close and apply pressure. If the pup stops right as you stop... there is no pressure. They figure that out VERY quickly.

Anyway, that is the essence of the method. It encourages the dog to keep a close eye on YOU and where you are going and what you are doing. It is all done silently, because you want the pup to watch YOU. Short lessons, 3-5 minutes each, repeated twice or more daily.

Down the road, I overlay verbal and visual commands, introduce direction changes and transition from a looped cord to a prong collar and then an e-collar. I then introduce the command at a distance. This is all done, step by step.

Incidentally, I am of the opinion that most folks(myself included) do not teach their bird dogs to sit because they may take the "sit" position as a "pressure escape" position. A bird dog that sits, or lays down on point is not what is customarily looked for.

I have found that once the dog has a solid foundation in obedience, the field work goes very much smoother and easier and safer.

RayG

I agree 100 percent. It is a command. Sit is a passive way of submission. A dog sits in a field trial after a bird flushes or on a retrieve it's gone.

[tailcrackin]

A dog will always read your eyes, voice, and touch......always. Positively, or negatively, it will be read. Myself, I think it should be the dogs choice to tell me about its point, I dont wanna have to tell it to.........heck most times in the wild, you dont know if it has a bird or not, so let I tend to butt out, and let the dog talk. Just my opinion, Thanks Jonesy

[bwjohn]

One thing about the "whoa" command is that it should never be used to establish a point. Which is what I think that you were alluding to in your original post. The dog should establish point on its own, you should not "whoa" it into a point.

Some of this can get a bit tricky, especially depending on what method you use to train. But, I use the whoa command after the dog has established point to calm their nerves a little bit as I go into flush or after the dog breaks point and he/she gets a correction for busting the bird.

But "whoa" is taught during "yard training" away from birds and is not used in this manner until a dog 100% knows what the command is and what he/she is suppose to be doing.

brandon

[RayGubernat]

Just to clarify -

I NEVER use the Whoa command to stop a dog around birds. To do that is to inject yourself in between the dog and the bird and THAT IS ALWAYS A MISTAKE, IMO.

I have and will continue to use the whoa command AFTER a dog has established point and have and will continue to discipline a dog for moving...AFTER I have commanded whoa.

If a dog establishes point on scent it is between the dog and the bird...as it should be. The handler should be silent, watchful and attentive, but mostly silent until the dog and the bird have sorted it out between themselves.

In point of fact, I am much more likely to encourage the dog, especially a young dog that is unsure or an older dog that is sticky... to continue to search for the bird rather than to lock up when it is not sure. It is far, far better, in my opinion, for a dog that is a little unsure, to bust a bird and then stop and stand.

That kind of thing can actually help build confidence in the young, unsure dog so that when it points...it HAS the birdd dead to rights... and it knows just how far away it needs to be to be certain it does indeed have the bird dead to rights. A bold, confident dog will move through the country at speed and will slam their points from the dead run freezing their birds. That's what I want to see.

If the dog subsequently moves after I walk in front of it to flush, or if it breaks and chases or breaks for a retrieve before it is released, that is a breach of obedience manners and will be treated as such.

If the dog breaks and chases and does not stop when I holler WHOA... we are going to have a come to Jesus meeting, I can assure you because then it is definitely an obedience issue, and I win ALL of those arguments with my dogs.

RayG

[slistoe]

In point of fact, I am much more likely to encourage the dog, especially a young dog that is unsure or an older dog that is sticky... to continue to search for the bird rather than to lock up when it is not sure. It is far, far better, in my opinion, for a dog that is a little unsure, to bust a bird and then stop and stand.

Wholeheartedly behind this one.

[JKP]

The word "Whoa" is way over rated and over used. Dogs learn situations...and the behavior that accompanies those situations. Great advice has been given here...first ...take the chase away...better yet, don't let it develop. Condition a dog that it gets the retrieve only after the release (whether you are throwing a bumper) and you are teaching control.

I have seen more dogs go "soft" in front of birds because of the overuse (pressure) of the Whoa command than any other cause.

[bwjohn]

In point of fact, I am much more likely to encourage the dog, especially a young dog that is unsure or an older dog that is sticky... to continue to search for the bird rather than to lock up when it is not sure. It is far, far better, in my opinion, for a dog that is a little unsure, to bust a bird and then stop and stand.

I agree as well, it is up to the dog to figure it out at this point. (no pun intended)

brandon

[4dabirds]

if you do not teach your dog to whoa how do you stop the dog in the field. How do you keep your dog from running into traffic. How do you stop it from chasing trash. What command will you use if it creeps on a bird. whoa is the only command you need. Its the one command that keeps your dog safe. you can use it to keep your dog within sight . If my dog is running full tilt a hundred yards out in a field full of birds and i blow the whistle he stops dead in his tracks. there might be a barbed wire fence or some other danger. Its the only command I care about. And yes I use it in some circumstances to whoa on birds if I need to.

[BrittGSP818]

IMO, whoa can be a good command and a bad one as well if used at the wrong time. For example, if a dog is on point and the he starts to creep forward, this can be a good thing because he may be learning to relocate or follow a running bird. Give him a whoa command here and your impedeting his learning. Although, if you know the bird is in a bush and not moving around or the dog is running helter skelter as mentioned above, whoa can be a crucial command. In short, teach your dog asap, BUT, use it as little as possible. It is better to know it and not use it then to not know it and need it. I would not use it on a pup until he has had a good amount of bird exposure so he learns how the birds act. Let him learn that creeping will only cause the birds to fly. Make sure you have good flying or wild birds for this.

George

[4dabirds]

there is a fundamental difference of opinion on the whoa command . Some peoples training programs are designed to allow the dog to work out for itself that chasing birds is fruitless. If you have the resources to train where there is a large number of wild birds this may be possible. The problem with this is not everyone can spend endless days in South Dakota or in the Maine grouse woods. If you are training on pigeons or liberated game birds it does not take more than one repetition of your dog catching a bird to keep it trying to catch a bird. Since dogs learn by association your dog may learn that it cant catch the bird, but if it does catch the bird, chase = bird. By teaching a dog to whoa and make an association that whoa = bird there is no chance of a wrong association. This may seem mechanical to some people but it is rooted in classic dog behavior. A dog is motivated to please itself. If chasing is fun thats what the dog will do. If a dog learns that the only way to see a bird is to whoa then thats what the dog will do. Never set your dog up to fail ,always control the outcome. Every repetition of a wrong thing is a thing learned wrong and will need to be re mediated.

[doco]

Whoa is the first thing I train my dogs on. I start on day one. I start to whoa them before they eat and continue to use whoa at every meal. I whoa them at every outdoor opening in the house. I whoa them when they come in the house to clean their feet. I whoa them while retrieving balls in the house and then frozen quail in the yard. All of this play as a puppy translates so well in the field as they age. We're not talking heavy pressure, just repitition. Now at three, I whoa them on the way to their food bowls. My dogs do whoa out at 100 yards due to all of this puppy training because it is a command that is not just for birdwork.

The Key to the success of all of this work is that the entire family has to be on board. I have 4 children and all know the rules. My wife has always understood the importance of these manners and probably disciplined the kids more than the dogs. It also teaches and reinforces the command coming from more than just one person. As I said earlier, the family has to all be on board. It even has been enforce by by 6 year old daughter. I have alway said, "I can train the dogs, it's the family that is hardest to train".

Just my thoughts, but they work for me.

Merry Christmas,

Bill