Gun Dog Forum

If you could spend a month (at no cost to you) working daily with & learning from a gun dog trainer alive today, whom would you chose & why?

Ferrel Miller - wealth of tremendous knowledge - an amateur that competed with the pros and his breeding still stands the test of time. I have been told he is as down to earth and helpful as they come!

Big Shooter,

I find it reprehensible that you didn't begin with your thoughts ... however, this is a cool question. I have paid for time with three trainers that are well known and will tell you that it has always been money well spent... However, based on successes and my hunch about the number of dogs these folks must have touched I am going to say the Tracy clan.

Joe

Delmar Smith #1, followed by Mike McGinnis. Delmar is my God. Mike I have watched a good number of times at trials and he put's down the kind of dog's I like! Best kept secret in the trainer world!

I would love to go thought the process from puppy to finished derby under the tutelage of Bruce Jacobs.
I have seen some of the dogs he developed, and I am awed by the fact that he can take a dog that he developed as an amateur all age competitor and run it, successfully, in shooting dog stakes, several years later.

I have also seen some of the dogs that Jeannette Tracy has developed and she too has a very gentle hand with her dogs and seems to be able to bring out the best in them without losing very much at all. Her grand dad would be very proud of her, I think.

Pete De Angelis is another who has a knack for bringing the best out in a dog, while keeping all the style, class and fire that God and the breeder put in there. He does some outstanding work with Brittanys which are notoriously soft as a breed.

RayG

Dave Walker. I've been lucky enough to have spent about a week training with Dave.

Doug

Dave Scott or Adrian Jackson. Both personal friends of mine, both men understand dogs, both men have very well trained dogs and the type of dogs I wish I had that talent to train myself. I've run dogs with Dave a couple of times and Adrian just once but I would like to pick their brains someday if I get the chance.

Ben O Williams Love his articles and the fact that he is a brittany guy

The best trainers? The dogs are the best trainers you can possibly learn from. If your learn how to communicate with them they will teach you more than any human can. My mentors have all been dogs.

Gary

Poudre River Gundogs

Hands down Bill West......no doubt Bill was way ahead of his time in his approach to understanding dogs and how to bring them along. He's had a great influence on many of todays trainers...


Chip

+1 on Bill West
Mo. Lindley
Dave Walker
Bill Gibbins

There is a long list of some good names for sure

Paul Doiron
Delmar Smith plus Rick Tom and Ronny
Mo Lindley
Sherry Ray Ebert

Are some that come to mind first for me

My teacher was Eldon Hongo. Johnny Merrell would have been great to watch and work with. His son Leroy is a good friend and competitor. Delmar Smith would be another. I like that Paul Dorian was mentioned. Another friend and very tough competitor. The list goes on.

Allen Vincent. I'd rather talk rodeo than dogs with Delmar.

Big Shooter,

I would love to spend more time with Adam Fogie, George Ryman & Henry Davis, alive today Duffey or Miller.
RGD/Dave

Cajun Casey wrote:Allen Vincent

Who's Allen Vincent.......

Coveyrise64

What about John Gates. And since it seems most are naming trainers that have worked with their favorite breed, I have to name the Holman family, Lee, Jom, and now Chad who have had many of the top Brits for the past 50 years. Dave Walker, Delmar Smith, Dave Grubb, Lyle Johnson, and many others. Is there a chane some of us are naming older legends and not the good ones of today? Just wonder if some of the best aren't out there today running dogs but aren't old enough to have people talking about them yet.

Ezzy

If I could spend time with a trainer the following would be on my list. Reiser, Vetter, Burkhart, Stott, and Hill. Not necessarily in that order but time spent with any of them would be a benefit to anyone getting started.

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 wrote:If I could spend time with a trainer the following would be on my list. Reiser, Vetter, Burkhart, Stott, and Hill. Not necessarily in that order but time spent with any of them would be a benefit to anyone getting started.

Coveyrise64

I have had the chance to spend time with several good trainers, I have the learned the most and and gained the most benefit from following direction given to me by our very own Coveyrise64 (Terry S). I mean that Terry, a few small simple tips from you at our training days has made a big difference for me.

you can't really argue with their success.........those people in Madison Kansas.........Keith and Robbi Gulledge!

kbshorthairs wrote:you can't really argue with their success.........those people in Madison Kansas.........Keith and Robbi Gulledge!

I was really wondering why they weren't on the list. And Rick and Brenda or does their success as a breeder overshadow the training ability?

Ezzy

I was always kind of intrigued with Dave Duffey. He is an old school guy but he would be my choice. If the question was for any trainer of all time I would without a doubt choose Bob Wehle.

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:Allen Vincent

Who's Allen Vincent.......

Coveyrise64

Say what??? You so did not really ask that! :roll:

Cajun Casey wrote:

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:Allen Vincent

Who's Allen Vincent.......

Coveyrise64

Say what??? You so did not really ask that! :roll:

Some how I bet he still doesn't know after reading the answer to his question.

Ezzy

I did 2 seminars with George Hickox I enjoyed the first one so much I went back for a second time. Now my only problem is my dog is doing so good i might have to make up a training problem or two to tell my wife so i can go a third time. If money was no problem I would like to go to a smith clinic just to see what the difference is between them. Knowledge is great and any opportunity like this should not be missed. Oh and how about spending some time with Shawn Kinkelaar he has campaigned the Purina top shooting dog of the year eight out of the last ten years. I think I need to retire so I can get on with my hobby. Any suggestions on how to get that passed the wife.

gpblitz wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:Who's Allen Vincent.......

Coveyrise64

ezzy333 wrote:Some how I bet he still doesn't know after reading the answer to his question

It would be nice if someone would answer his question.

I would bet he knows who Allen Vincent is, Allen is a pro handler based out of Collinsville OK.

Thanks Coop. I had never heard of him so I was hoping someone would fill us in. I think a lot of the trainers are pretty much breed specific and if you don't run that breed you very likely wouldn't have a clue.

Ezzy

ACooper wrote:

gpblitz wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:Who's Allen Vincent.......

Coveyrise64

ezzy333 wrote:Some how I bet he still doesn't know after reading the answer to his question

It would be nice if someone would answer his question.

I would bet he knows who Allen Vincent is, Allen is a pro handler based out of Collinsville OK.

YOU, sir, get a cookie.

Allen has Jetsetter on his AA string. If he ever is the recipient of a miracle, he just might make history. I think that's pretty cool and I'm not much of a setter fan.

Coveyrise64 wrote:Who's Allen Vincent...

Very successful AA trainer/handler...here is a link to his site http://www.vincentkennels.com/

Can't narrow it down to just one. I'd have to go with Dave Walker and Ben Garcia because both just do it right.

I've been the recipient of a lot of excellent advice from many of you right here. Howie, Crackerd, CoveyRise, Ross and others have taken the time to answer my questions and provide tips that really helped over the past year. Wish I was able to tag along behind some of them in the training field a time or two. My guess is that they'd all be a lot of fun to hunt with, as well.

I'm also fortunate that so many members of my NAVHDA chapter were generous with their time and talent. I spent a lot of time training with Scott Beynon, of Freeman, SD, this past summer, and picked up a lot from him. Scott's become one of the top NAVHDA trainers; his record really speaks for itself. He's big on repetition and consistency, and spends a great deal of time with each dog he trains. When Scott finishes a dog, it's typically impeccably mannered and very reliable, which is why he has such a long waiting list for clients.

The more time I spend training and handling, the more aware I am of how much more there is to learn.

ckirsch wrote:I've been the recipient of a lot of excellent advice from many of you right here. Howie, Crackerd, CoveyRise, Ross and others have taken the time to answer my questions and provide tips that really helped over the past year. Wish I was able to tag along behind some of them in the training field a time or two. My guess is that they'd all be a lot of fun to hunt with, as well.

I'm also fortunate that so many members of my NAVHDA chapter were generous with their time and talent. I spent a lot of time training with Scott Beynon, of Freeman, SD, this past summer, and picked up a lot from him. Scott's become one of the top NAVHDA trainers; his record really speaks for itself. He's big on repetition and consistency, and spends a great deal of time with each dog he trains. When Scott finishes a dog, it's typically impeccably mannered and very reliable, which is why he has such a long waiting list for clients.

The more time I spend training and handling, the more aware I am of how much more there is to learn.

I remember you mentioning Scott. If I recall he passed 2-3 dogs at the Invitational this year. Pretty impressive.

Coveyrise64

Cajun Casey wrote:

ACooper wrote:
I would bet he knows who Allen Vincent is, Allen is a pro handler based out of Collinsville OK.

YOU, sir, get a cookie.

Allen has Jetsetter on his AA string. If he ever is the recipient of a miracle, he just might make history. I think that's pretty cool and I'm not much of a setter fan.

In that case I don't think you'd want to show up there with a GSP.....

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

ACooper wrote:
I would bet he knows who Allen Vincent is, Allen is a pro handler based out of Collinsville OK.

YOU, sir, get a cookie.

Allen has Jetsetter on his AA string. If he ever is the recipient of a miracle, he just might make history. I think that's pretty cool and I'm not much of a setter fan.

In that case I don't think you'd want to show up there with a GSP.....

Coveyrise64

You never know. Some people realize the best they ever had is where they started!

Coveyrise64 wrote:[

------------

GSP? GSP? Is that the thing you use to find road directions? Or is that the stub-tailed bird dog that runs funny?

if running funny means blowing by your dog like a freight train and pointing more birds..........come to think of it.....it does make me grin!

With all of the GSP owners and field trialers on this site I thought we might be getting more posts that included names from the following incomplete list: Eldon Hongo, Chris Goegan, Dennis Brath, Terry Chandler, Terry Zygalinski, Pat Waresk, Dan Hoke, Rich Barber, Keith Gulledge, Jim West, Joe Vicari or Joe Amatulli.

I don't know the GWP field trial foks too well but I thought we'd hear a few names of guys like Greg Dixon, who has trained a couple of National Champions.

I dunno maybe folks just thought they didn't have "enough run" in them to try and hang around some of the better field trial trainers for a month!

BigShooter wrote:
I dunno maybe folks just thought they didn't have "enough run" in them to try and hang around some of the better field trial trainers for a month!

Did I mention my runner-up, Randy Anderson?

It might look likely that I would choose Jimmy West since he handled the sire of my derby prospect for years, but I went with what I know and admire. Putting a bobtail with an established longtail trainer has been a trip (my dog is not with Vincent or Anderson, BTW). But, I've gotten further in eight months than in two years of hanging around and talking to the GSP crowd. I've also got to see my pup paste the son of a National Champion. That was a REAL trip.

Cajun Casey wrote: Putting a bobtail with an established longtail trainer has been a trip (my dog is not with Vincent or Anderson, BTW). But, I've gotten further in a eight months than in two years of hanging around and talking to the GSP crowd. I've also got to see my pup paste the son of a National Champion. That was a REAL trip.

... and we are in it for "fun" after all, right?

We each tend to know the folks we do based upon the circles we run in. One idea behind the thread was to expand people's circle and pique their curiosity with names they're not already familiar with.

Cajun Casey wrote:I've gotten further in eight months than in two years of hanging around and talking to the GSP crowd.

No, your trainer has gotten further in eight months than you did in two years. There is more to training than hanging around and talking dogs.

Cajun Casey wrote:I've also got to see my pup paste the son of a National Champion. That was a REAL trip.

Did either of them place......?

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:I've gotten further in eight months than in two years of hanging around and talking to the GSP crowd.

No, your trainer has gotten further in eight months than you did in two years. There is more to training than hanging around and talking dogs.

Cajun Casey wrote:I've also got to see my pup paste the son of a National Champion. That was a REAL trip.

Did either of them place......?

Coveyrise64

I'm not talking about training dogs. I'm talking about finding a venue I'm comfortable with and training results that I understand. With Casey, it is doubly important because of his personality.

The run against the Snowatch pup was a puppy stake and we just wanted him around. I was handling and kept him turned and in front, but I knew I was in trouble. Three weeks later I hauled him back and dumped him. He was huge, fast, and too far out on the edge and gaining independence by the minute. I don't have that kind of room. It was five months before we tried him again. That's when he got the placement we wanted and we quit. I don't need this dog, believe me. I gambled against the odds when I bought him and I lost. He's headed south for a month and we'll decide after that trip whether to enter anything during his Derby eligibility or not. He likely will not see AKC for a while, if ever. Regardless, he's going to cost me a horse sometime in the near future. At least he can share said horse with his little brother and their friend.

I think their is a distinction in Trainers, Handlers and People Teachers of Dogs. The Smiths are the best at teaching people to train their dogs and Delmar and Rick's Field Trial records are uneaquled. Their resumes back up what they teach.


Bill West was the guru for many great trainers like, Gibbons, Lindley and Walker.
You can look at any training system out their and you will find the West methods as the underlying foundation.

The stars need to align to attain the GREAT status....you have to have the right dogs on your string with owners with deep pockets to allow the talent to shine.

BigShooter wrote:With all of the GSP owners and field trialers on this site I thought we might be getting more posts that included names from the following incomplete list: Eldon Hongo, Chris Goegan, Dennis Brath, Terry Chandler, Terry Zygalinski, Pat Waresk, Dan Hoke, Rich Barber, Keith Gulledge, Jim West, Joe Vicari or Joe Amatulli.

I dunno maybe folks just thought they didn't have "enough run" in them to try and hang around some of the better field trial trainers for a month!

I own a few GSP's that have more than "enough run", I like the fact they have some hunt in them as well. Probably why field trial trainers aren't on my list and many others.

BigShooter wrote:One idea behind the thread was to expand people's circle and pique their curiosity with names they're not already familiar with.

I tried.......you must have missed it.

Coveyrise64 wrote:If I could spend time with a trainer the following would be on my list. Reiser, Vetter, Burkhart, Stott, and Howie Hill. Not necessarily in that order but time spent with any of them would be a benefit to anyone getting started.

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 wrote: I tried.......you must have missed it. Coveyrise64

Not sure how you came to that misperception, esp. when you mention Howie 'cause we lived in the same neck of the woods for a lot of years.

P.S. I never knew before that field trial trainers were just good for puttin' enough run in a dog. As we already know from surveys, the vast majority of the owners of GSP field trial dogs all hunt them.

BigShooter wrote:Not sure how you came to that misperception, esp. when you mention Howie 'cause we lived in the same neck of the woods for a lot of years.

Wasn't necessarily for you, there might be others out there interested in knowing someone who trains besides a big time field trialer. I thought that was the purpose of your post. I'd like to see some retriever trainers listed also.

BigShooter wrote:P.S. I never knew before that field trial trainers were just good for puttin' enough run in a dog.

I'll have to take your word on that, I don't have a horse so I haven't been able to see many trial dogs handle birds.

BigShooter wrote:As we already know from surveys, the vast majority of the owners of GSP field trial dogs all hunt them.

You think if I was a field trialer and trying to sell pups I'd fill out a survey and not say that I didn't hunt my trial dogs. I don't have much confidence in your surveys......PR and you know it.

Coveyrise64

Big Shooter
I don't know much about Zygalinski as a trainer, I have to assume he is good. I learn every time I watch him handle and he is a great judge. Makes a newbie really comfortable.

Coveyrise64 wrote:...I'd like to see some retriever trainers listed also.

Coveyrise64

Joe McCann.

gpblitz wrote:

gpblitz wrote:Rex Carr

Rex Carr One of the inovative retrierver trainers of all time.
Dave Rorum from Int'l Falls Minnesota. One of Rex Carr's best students . Present day trainer. Won many Nat'l Ch's..

I look to folks like these 2 gents in the development of water work for NAVHDA. Blinds and water marks and proper e- collar use for both.

Thanks Howie, I missed that one. Sure must be nice to have access to their knowledge.

Cajun Casey wrote:Joe McCann.

I know he's a Dr. at OSU's Vet School but I thought he was more of a breeder than a trainer.

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:Joe McCann.

I know he's a Dr. at OSU's Vet School but I thought he was more of a breeder than a trainer.

Coveyrise64

Rock Erin is listed as a pro outfit and he uses a bunch of "my" pigeons. I believe he had client dogs on the Colorado run this year.

If he doesn't fit your criteria, then how about Chris Payne? He does the bad boys.

Cajun Casey wrote:

Coveyrise64 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:Joe McCann.

I know he's a Dr. at OSU's Vet School but I thought he was more of a breeder than a trainer.

Coveyrise64

Rock Erin is listed as a pro outfit and he uses a bunch of "my" pigeons. I believe he had client dogs on the Colorado run this year.

If he doesn't fit your criteria, then how about Chris Payne? He does the bad boys.

I tought Chris worked for McCann. When did you start raising pigeons?

Coveyrise64