young English Pointer-Problem?

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sammy1
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young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:48 pm

I have an 8 month old pointer that when goes on point starts to relocate only when I get near him. He will not flush the bird but relocates or moves around. Always a bird there but he moves around wags his tail. Should I be concerned or does anybody have any ideas on what to do. I have started him on yard work with the perfect start video and right now we are working on heel and the whoa command. When we go hunting I just let him hunt with no commands only here which he does well. I have had him hunting 20 times so far----just want him to hunt and have fun. Thanks in advance for any responses.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by ymepointer » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:51 pm

Are these wild birds he is relocating on or pen raised birds? Does he tighten up after relocating or flagg and loose intensity?

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:05 pm

Yard work - whoa. Start popping birds on him the minute he moves. Make him think his movement made them fly away.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by birddogger » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:06 pm

Nothing to worry about at this point. Just don't shoot the bird when he does this. Using the perfection method, he will learn that if he moves, the bird is gone. Let him have fun in the field and continue the yard work. Once he is whoa broke, along with learning that moving means lost bird, he will be fine.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by birddogger » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:07 pm

PntrRookie wrote:Yard work - whoa. Start popping birds on him the minute he moves. Make him think his movement made them fly away.
I didn' type fast enough. :lol:

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:30 pm

Sounds more like he is playing with things. Why should you have to whoa him, and tell him to point? He should know how to do that himself.....right? His nose is working or he wouldnt wag and walk circles around the bird.
So, now think about things....why doesnt he wanna have the bird in the air? He is playing all around it to see he can do or get away with...but why wont he get in close enough to bump it? Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:25 pm

ymepointer wrote:Are these wild birds he is relocating on or pen raised birds? Does he tighten up after relocating or flagg and loose intensity?
Both wild and pen raised. Never looses intensity.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:26 pm

I had the same problem with my 3 year old pointer when she first started hunting. She still flags her tail when she is not absolutely sure where the bird is but is on point. When he gets confident in his nose and learns how to exactly locate a bird with his nose and not just a general area where the bird is he will stop flagging and as soon as he learns that movement causes the bird to flush he will steady himself as well. What type of birds are you hunting with him? If you are hunting pheasant I personally do not see a problem with relocating especially if the bird is moving on him. It could also be that he is stopping as soon as he smells the bird on the outer fringes of his scent cone and then when you get in close enough for a shot he is trying to move up and exactly pinpoint that bird. Just something to think about. Mine used to do the same thing till she figured out how close she can get to a bird without crowding it too much subsequently bumping it and now when she goes on a solid point I know the bird is in front of her about 10 or 15 yards.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:52 pm

This dog isnt relocating though, there is a difference in what the dog is saying. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by gittrdonebritts » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:08 pm

sammy1 wrote:I have an 8 month old pointer that when goes on point starts to relocate only when I get near him. He will not flush the bird but relocates or moves around. Always a bird there but he moves around wags his tail.
tailcrackin wrote:This dog isnt relocating though, there is a difference in what the dog is saying. Thanks Jonesy
Sammy1 It sounds like the dog is moving around the bird maybe circling it? is that correct ? relocating would mean when the bird moves he moves to re-establishing a solid point, Now you need get him to establish a solid point on first sent and if he starts to relocate as the bird moves he needs to learn he has to stay solid on that point as well, maybe teaching him not to move until you have tried to flush and produced nothing and you tap him on the head.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by 4dabirds » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:49 am

You have had this dog hunting twenty times. Every time you bring him out he does this. This is reinforcing the behavior. What you let the dog do you are training him to do. This is why I do not believe letting the dog figure things out for themselves works. You have no control over the association. the dog makes.If you teach the dog to whoa under all circumstances. You could bring the dog cross wind into the scent cone, when the dog hits scent whoa, launch a bird, then launch another and another at different intervals . The dog will learn to expect another bird. If the dog moves yank him off his feet with the check cord. the dog will learn that another one is coming and will be looking for it. Since the dog is motivated by the birds and not the correction he is going to stay there because the birds are what he wants. This is working with the dogs nature not against it .The correction is only a temporary stop gap to get you to show the pup what is happening.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by topher40 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:59 am

The dog is trying t tell you that it is not ready to be broke. Take a step back and give the dog time to mature. Run the dog on wild birds, ditch any pen raised stuff even pigeons. Go back to having some fun with the pup!
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by 4dabirds » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:34 pm

topher40 wrote:The dog is trying t tell you that it is not ready to be broke. Take a step back and give the dog time to mature. Run the dog on wild birds, ditch any pen raised stuff even pigeons. Go back to having some fun with the pup!
The dog has been hunting twenty times . How many more times will it take for the dog to get it? If the dog makes the association that this is okay and maybe starts to bump birds and thats okay then how many corrections will it take to get it out of the dog? Why if you are trying to get the dog steady would you allow the dog to be not steady.? So far you got what you put into it, let the dog be a dog, and thats what he did acted like a dog, just not the one you wanted!!!!!!

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:04 pm

4dabirds,
Topher 40 in reality is correct, if the dog has the right genetic imprint, his instincts will develope at a certain age as the pup matures, and the pup will instinctively lock up.
Prior to this its play time and self education in his hunting habitat that matters. Using the wild birds the pup educates himself that if he moves so do the birds and he gets no reward. Topher 40, sir your knowledge is outstanding. Hope to meet you in the field or forset some time.
RGD/Dave

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by birddogger » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:48 pm

topher40 wrote:The dog is trying t tell you that it is not ready to be broke. Take a step back and give the dog time to mature. Run the dog on wild birds, ditch any pen raised stuff even pigeons. Go back to having some fun with the pup!
+2. This is an 8 month old puppy we are talking about.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:01 pm

Yep agree, to young for breaking to start......but this isnt what the dog is saying to the owner handler.

Hasnt got a thing to do with breaking, whoa work, relocating.......what is it telling you about the bird? Pen or wild, doesnt matter, it is about the bird, why is the dog acting the way it is?

Sammy we will talk more on this, I am sorry your dog is being put in the light, but this is a great topic for people to learn on, and from. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by topher40 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:14 pm

"sir" is my father.... :lol: and I would prefer to meet in a field, forests scare me. :twisted:

I dont care if the pup has been "hunted" 100 times. If a pup isnt ready to be broke they just arent ready. Not that a pup cant take it, but they are much more receptive at a later age and "breaking" will only occur ONCE with minor tune ups. Break them to early and you will be breaking the dog for the rest of their life. Wait till they are receptive..........
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:4dabirds,
Topher 40 in reality is correct, if the dog has the right genetic imprint, his instincts will develope at a certain age as the pup matures, and the pup will instinctively lock up.
Prior to this its play time and self education in his hunting habitat that matters. Using the wild birds the pup educates himself that if he moves so do the birds and he gets no reward. Topher 40, sir your knowledge is outstanding. Hope to meet you in the field or forset some time.
RGD/Dave
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:50 pm

Sammy, the thread starter commented twice, and I have not read in either post, anything about breaking. So, where is this coming from? It does talk on the dogs actions with birds, and I asked a couple questions about why people feel this is happening, and yet has anyone answered, it all gets revamped about breaking........breaking hasnt got one thing to do with this dogs actions, breaking isnt even going on. So why is this turning into a breaking topic, guy just wants to know why his dog is doing what its doing.......I thought I would talk with everyone, and try an help onlookers, learn something with dogs, and thier actions. But everyone seems to wanna not answer or go around the topic, or question......why?? Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by pointshootretrieve » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:34 pm

tailcrackin wrote:Sammy, the thread starter commented twice, and I have not read in either post, anything about breaking. So, where is this coming from? It does talk on the dogs actions with birds, and I asked a couple questions about why people feel this is happening, and yet has anyone answered, it all gets revamped about breaking........breaking hasnt got one thing to do with this dogs actions, breaking isnt even going on. So why is this turning into a breaking topic, guy just wants to know why his dog is doing what its doing.......I thought I would talk with everyone, and try an help onlookers, learn something with dogs, and thier actions. But everyone seems to wanna not answer or go around the topic, or question......why?? Thanks Jonesy
Could be numerous reasons very hard to diagnose over the internet with an owners description.

Cooperation
Not enough exposure to wild game (too many planted birds)
Hasn't learned use of nose properly
Wants to actually see the bird it is pointing

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:11 pm

Yea to an extent, but what sticks out hard in my mind is how its said that the dogs circles the bird......so why would that happen, if the dog is brave enough, or curious enough to leave stance, or flash point, and leave...... an circle.......risk everything, to circle.......why is there so much question in the dogs mind about the bird? Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:28 pm

Ok Guys everyone has been awesome. This is my first thread and I had no idea I would get so many differnt opinoins. I will try to be a little more exact on what my pup is doing. I have seen him go on point at 40 yds 50 yds and 100 yds from me. He stays steady (except for waggin his tail) until I get within a few yards and that is when he moves around a few feet. He never circles the bird. He never flushes or pounces the bird. He is always intent on the spot where the scent is coming from. He does the same on wild quail--pen raised quail--pen raised pheasants. He is out of Numark Jim Dandy and Elhew Fibber McGee fyi. Thanks again to everyone than has responded!

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by Maurice » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:55 pm

What does the dog do when the birds flush? What does he do with the bird when you shoot 1 down for it?

Mo

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:17 pm

Maurice wrote:What does the dog do when the birds flush? What does he do with the bird when you shoot 1 down for it?

Mo
When the birds flushes he will chase and when a bird goes down he goes and picks it up and runs around with it in his mouth and sometimes he has even brought me the bird with some coaxing.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by Maurice » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:10 am

If thats the case you have a fairly normal pup that should gain confidence as it matures. Don't do any formal work until it is mature. Thats what I would do going by what you have described in the last couple of post. Your pup should gain confidence and get pretty cocky before long.

Mo

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:14 am

Sounds good on the rest of the story, and is exactly what I was wanting to help on, the dog not being confident. The story changed a little bit on the last post, but here is what I was going off of.....
He will not flush the bird but relocates or moves around. Always a bird there but he moves around wags his tail.
That says things a little different than the last post, the actions first posted, the dog sounded sorta nervous or unsure.......or lacking confidence....heck, even playing with the bird. Good call on "the after the flush" question, that was next Maurice.....was trying to get people talking about the actions from the dog, first. Thanks Maurice, and Sammy, was real good topic for some to learn from, Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:45 am

Can I add something here.......Duct Tape get a roll and slap it over your mouth when you feel the need to do alot of talking to the dog, let the bird teach the dog to stand there, not the word whoa.
A bit of an exaggeration with the duct tape but you get my point, less talk.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:27 pm

I don't say anything to the dog when he is on point or working a bird. The only command I give him is "come in" and that is not very often.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by lvrgsp » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:39 pm

Wow didn't see how close you were to me. Your just north of Springfield right? I'm an hour north of ya

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by deseeker » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:08 pm

I had a female brit that would be solid on point until I started getting close. She would then move slightly to one side or the other and point again. I think she was worried she wouldn't be able to see the bird come up because my fat little body would be in the way of her marking the birds flight. So to try to fix the problem, I started looping wide of her coming into the bird at 90 degrees to the dog. Or I would go clear around and come in directly towards her from the other side of the bird. That way she could watch me and where the the bird would come out. No more blocking her vision. Once I started doing that, No MORE MOVING, she stayed rock solid from start to finish. Sometimes it just takes something simple to fix a problem. It worked on my dog, maybe it will work on your dog. Try it, it might work or it might not(it won't hurt anything if it doesn't) :D

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by bowhunter1221975 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:12 pm

I think that your pup at nine months is doing great just keep doing what you are doing and let the pup have fun keep the pup in birds and it will learn more then any words can teach have fun and good luck with your pup
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by birddogger » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:14 pm

bowhunter1221975 wrote:I think that your pup at nine months is doing great just keep doing what you are doing and let the pup have fun keep the pup in birds and it will learn more then any words can teach have fun and good luck with your pup
Good post. I just don't see a problem here at this point. I agree with Jonesy that it is probably a confidence thing, but he is a puppy and bird exposure and time will take care of that. At this point, I would concentrate on the yard training before starting the formal training on birds.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:13 pm

Birdogger, I will not claim the glory on the saying of confidence, That is Maurice, he is the one stated that, I was more worried about trying to hep outsiders learn more on the way the dog was saying things, by what was posted at the start of the topic. Credit goes to Maurice, he is the one that commented on the conf level first. Thanks for the support!hahaha Thanks Jonesy
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by birddogger » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:36 pm

Yeah, sorry about that, Maurice is the one who mentioned the confidence thing and he deserves the credit. Having said that, I believe that is what you were getting at Jonesy, without saying it, and I admire your modesty. :) I still don't see it as a big problem at this age though.

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by wes_gsp » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:33 pm

Your dog sounds pretty normal to me. The deal with running around the bird could be confidence issue but hard to tell to say without knowing the dog or physically seeing his actions. Could be that he enjoys the flush and the chase there after. Just as important as to why he is doing it is what can you do to fix it. Latter in his training when he knows whoa you should be able to correct this. As for now, I do something like what deseeker touched on. When the dog establishes point, walk in slowly, quietly, and in front of the dog. Make a large loop in a half radius, always in the front and be quiet. gradually shorten your loops as you move into the bird.

Quiet and in front of the dog

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by madmurph » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:14 pm

A late reply, but I just saw the thread. Sammy, in your second post you say that the dog starts moving when you get within a few yards of him. Are you approaching him from behind where he is unable to see you? If so, try approaching him from the side where he is able to see you come in for the flush. Approaching blindly from behind can make some dogs uneasy. This is very basic, but worth mentioning.
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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by sammy1 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:32 pm

madmurph wrote:A late reply, but I just saw the thread. Sammy, in your second post you say that the dog starts moving when you get within a few yards of him. Are you approaching him from behind where he is unable to see you? If so, try approaching him from the side where he is able to see you come in for the flush. Approaching blindly from behind can make some dogs uneasy. This is very basic, but worth mentioning.
I always approach him going towards him. never behind. I try to get the bird between me and the dog as much as possible. Yhanks for your reply

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Re: young English Pointer-Problem?

Post by treedaddy » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:45 pm

I had a dog that would do the same thing starting at about 8 months old. He would find birds and then relocate when I would get close. He would even relocate when another dog got close and then back that dog. I suspect he was blinking. He never was gun shy, but I think he was a little bird shy on the flush. I saw him at about 6 months old walk into a covey and it scared him a little. He was good for backing other dogs and that's how I usually found him. I have seen him leave a point when my other dog got close and let that dog steal the point. Dog could hunt all day and for an EP stayed close and checked back often, but he was always leaving point when another dog or I got near him. Maybe the shooting bothered him some. I tried to not shoot over his head.

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