Finishing touches on breaking

[Busterb]

The board is a little slow so I was hoping to get some discussion going on the final phases of the breaking process. Hopefully ya'll remember that I have English pointer that is now 18 months old that I have chose to go ahead and break using the West/ Gibbons method.

For the first year I let him be a pup and get him out in the hills and find, bump chase and eventually point birds these are when he 11 months old.


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Then the brooding season came for the birds and I decided to go ahead and break him as I could no longer run him on the wild birds. Flash progressed very well and took the training in stride with no major setbacks. This was more to due with whom I was training with then anything I did personally. 13 months old


Eventually Flash got to the point where I could trust him to go dragging the check cord and he would stay steady wing shot and fall.


Then came the real challenge for Flash. Wild birds after the summer training breaking process. This is a lesson I had to learn the hard way. I thought that because Flash was able to handle his pigeons so well that this would all transfer over to wild birds. It eventually did but not after some serious frustration on my part as it appeared to me that Flash had not had a day of training his whole life. He finally decided to point the sage grouse instead of run them into the next county.


and with more exposure to wild birds and a careful watch over him at all times he was finally able to put it together on wild birds with a completely broke find on a wild chukar. That was truly a great day.



Then hunting season opened up for chukars and Flash earned his first retrieve that he was able to go get instead of the shooter bringing the bird back to him.


Things were going so well that I thought it would be okay to go hunting with a buddy and another dog and this is where the wheels have fallen off. The other dog didn't steel point but crowed Flash and ever since then Flash has been bumping birds and chasing them. I though this was maybe just because another dog was on the ground, but he has even done this while on his own. The birds that Flash is bumping are wild late season Chukar that are running and not holding.

What do you think is the cause of Flash starting to Bump birds and where should I go from here?

I have an idea of what I should do, but I wanted to get some discussion on what you guys/gals think?

[mudhunter]

Sounds like he's is right where he should be. Year and half old dog should be able to do everything a adult dog does with one major exception, it can't be TRUSTED to do any of those things! Keep him close where you can see him and don't let him get away with anything, Sounds like he knows how to do it, just sometimes temptation takes over, that's where you need to be on top of him and catch it right away. As you trust him more than you can let him roll!

Looks like a real nice dog from the pictures.

[gonehuntin']

Sooooooo, in my mind, if they're late season birds, running not holding, pup is relocating and bumping some but pointing some, everything is fine and he's learning what late season birds are all about. The chasing is a whole different issue and at 18 months, I sure as heck wouldn't put up with that. The longer you let him chase, the harder he'll be to stop. By that age, two tweets of the whistle, whoa, or NO, should stop him in his tracks.

[4dabirds]

Training programs are designed so that when the dog does something wrong you are able to correct it because the dog understands what is expected. Never let the dog fail. Every time you let the dog chase it is a repetition of chasing. What you let your dog do you are teaching it to do.

[MillerClemsonHD]

If you nick him with the collar while chasing will he stop? Not when he is pointing only when chasing. Have you put him on pen birds since this started to see if he chased them? Pen raised quail might be good in this situation as they aren't going to run far like a chukar but will walk around and not flush and do the dumb stuff a pen bird does. Like other posters said remember he is still young and is going to mess up, the key is making that mess up a learning experience and making improvements.

When the season is over its not time to put him up till next year keep training. The more contact the more experience your dog will have. When he is standing broke and doing well work him with another dog. Let him drag a cord or run free and work a bird and work another dog behind him on a check cord to back from a distance so that he wont feel pressure from the backing dog and can get used to another dog on the ground. Do that until you can free run them both and he can get used to have a bracemate.

[Busterb]

Thank you to all for the great advise. A little more info about Flash is that yes he will stop when I nick him when he is chasing the birds. I guess the hard part is the terrain to hunt chukars is straight up and down mountains and I am not always in a position to see him. Good thing for the garmin.
Since I posted this I have put him on some training birds in a controlled situation with another dog on the ground and was able to make a few corrections. I think with more repetitions he will come back around.

Thanks

[4dabirds]

The question I have is; does the dog know why he is being corrected? If you command whoa and the dog is trained to whoa does he stop. When you want him to stop chasing does the dog perceive the reason for correction is he chased. Or does the dog perceive the correction is for not whoaing? If the dog has no formal training he may perceive the correction for being near a bird and this can lead to blinking. Or it may just confuse him and make him apprehensive.

[Busterb]

Yes the dog knows why he is being corrected and is collared conditioned. He will stop on command and has been trained to stop to flush. One thing I haven't done with him is the extra training for example: If the bird is running on the ground and the dog sees the the bird he still needs to stand his bird. Another example is if another dog steals his point that he still needs to stand his bird and his training.

The question I have is; does the dog know why he is being corrected? If you command whoa and the dog is trained to whoa does he stop. When you want him to stop chasing does the dog perceive the reason for correction is he chased. Or does the dog perceive the correction is for not whoaing? If the dog has no formal training he may perceive the correction for being near a bird and this can lead to blinking. Or it may just confuse him and make him apprehensive.

[4dabirds]

Maybe I am reading this wrong but from what I see is the dog is collar conditioned to whoa. When you correct him he stops chasing but when you correct him in any situation he will stop running even when there is no bird present. So just because the dog stops to the flush does not mean he understands the reason he is corrected is because he is chasing. I would do some pigeon pole work with him to get him to be steady on a bird he sees.

[Busterb]

Thanks for your help

Maybe I am reading this wrong but from what I see is the dog is collar conditioned to whoa. When you correct him he stops chasing but when you correct him in any situation he will stop running even when there is no bird present. So just because the dog stops to the flush does not mean he understands the reason he is corrected is because he is chasing. I would do some pigeon pole work with him to get him to be steady on a bird he sees.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Busterb- I understand what you are saying on he knows when you nick him with the collar during a chase he will stop. That is the response you are looking for. I would put him in situations that will test how broke he is and continue to make progress. Down the road then you set him up to point a bird where it is going to take you a long time to get there and have a helper hiding with the remote to his ecollar and see how honest he is when he knows you aren't there. More repetition with walking birds, multiple birds, poor flying birds, multiple dogs, backing a dog through a retrieve.

Yes the dog knows why he is being corrected and is collared conditioned. He will stop on command and has been trained to stop to flush. One thing I haven't done with him is the extra training for example: If the bird is running on the ground and the dog sees the the bird he still needs to stand his bird. Another example is if another dog steals his point that he still needs to stand his bird and his training.

The question I have is; does the dog know why he is being corrected? If you command whoa and the dog is trained to whoa does he stop. When you want him to stop chasing does the dog perceive the reason for correction is he chased. Or does the dog perceive the correction is for not whoaing? If the dog has no formal training he may perceive the correction for being near a bird and this can lead to blinking. Or it may just confuse him and make him apprehensive.