e-collar for biting/jumping up

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KDgococks
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e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by KDgococks » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:14 pm

I have a 10 week old Chocolate Lab who is very mouthy and a bit aggressive at times. I am leaning towards an e-collar to get a handle on it. He is relentless w/ the playbiting and jumping up and attacking whoever is laying on the couch, sitting in the recliner. He is incredibly stubborn w/ this behaviour. I think I have established some level of dominance in his eyes as he is worse w/ my wife and even more so w/ our 7 yr. old son. Other than this, he is well behaved. He is taking to commands, sit, here, beginning to fetch. He's done very well w/ crate training and potty training. Has not had much leash training but he does pretty well walking on heel w/o the leash. I have been consistent w/ holding jowls against teeth, "No Bite" and "down" when it is combined w/jumping up. He does not jump up when we come home, enter the house etc., just in this particular situation. Didn't know if it is too early for the e-collar or if I need to take a diffrent approach.

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kninebirddog
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:21 pm

BAD IDEA for use of the e collar. Do a search for biting on his site I am on my phone right now trying to reply enough and will come back later with some better ideas and links. But I will bet oh will get some more advice in re mean time
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:29 pm

No e-collar for a puppy this young and not for aggression unless you have a TON of experience. Pin him, loud ouches, chain gangs, time-outs in isolated rooms. As K-Nine said there are lots of specifics in detail on the sight but hold off on the collar.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:00 pm

http://kninebirddog.com/simplemachinesf ... ?topic=4.0. This is a little write up I did. Hopefully this will help you get on the right track with your pup
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:29 pm

An ecollar on him can get you bitten, and badly. Not a good idea.

Be a dog. Do what he is doing to you. What would his mother do? If he bites you, hold his muzzle shut and bite his nose, commanding NO!.

If he jumps on you, knee him in the chest as hard as you can and flip him backwards, calmly commanding NO. Say nothing else to him.

He's 10 weeks; if you can't get a handle on a puppy, you'll never handle an older dog.
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by KDgococks » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:46 pm

Thanks for the responses. I was concerned that it was too soon for a e-collar, but I started to consider it because of the lack of progress w/ this specific behavior. He has taken so well with the other aspects of training I was getting a bit frustrated w/ this isolated instance. As some of you have advised, pinning him down, pushing him away, popping his nose only amps him up. I have been hesitant to put him in the crate because I have read so much against punishing w/ the kennel. I also want to ensure that the correction is consistent, especially since it has been so much worse w/ my son and to a lesser extent my wife. I want to make sure that if I am not around, they can handle it in the same consistent manner. There is so much information available that sometimes I find it hard to zero in on the best advice.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by Sprig » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:07 pm

a bit young for an e-collar but i would suggest when he bites to be firm and hold him down, laying on his back, and have your hand on his throat saying the word "no". dont let him up until he submits. now you arent putting pressure on his neck or anything but rather just having him in a very submissive position that will soon teach him he isnt the boss. if you watch dogs play and even fight, usually one will end up on the ground on his back with another going after the throat. this is a dominant/submissive thing in dogs so you can use it also but keep in mind you dont let the dog up until he submits and you arent hurting the dog at all. its a mental form of dominance.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by GUNDOGS » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:17 pm

I notices in your post you said he jumps up on you while laying on the couch which says he has access to the living room ect..i would not use the ecollar for sure on a young pup that is just being a puppy but i would make him EARN his right to be with all of you in the home..our male setter was the same way and he was VERY vocal when he would bite..if you have a way to block off the kitchen or a bathroom where he can still see everyone but not be with them he will see he does not have the same rights as everyone else to be in the living room..also if you think he may be trying to dominate your wife or child make sure THEY are the ones who feed him and give him water and they make him sit before getting fed..he will then see he is dependant on them to survive and gain more respect for them..try him with the family for small intervals and if he does well and behaves as you wish let him stay for a bit longer but if he begins the behavior you dont want put him back in the area alone..he will catch on it took about a week for our bailey to get it but he learned being with us was only allowed if he behaved...the only reason i am suggesting putting him in the kitchen or bathroom is because its more room and he can see you so is not alone per say..plus his crate may be to small to stay for long periods of time especially if he already is there all night or all day while you work 2) you dont want him to think his crate is associated with being corrected or when you want him to kennel up to go hunting he will think hes in trouble..JMO..ruth
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by Redfishkilla » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:39 pm

"As some of you have advised, pinning him down, pushing him away, popping his nose only amps him up."

This IMO means he doesn't understand you are punishing him. You have to get the point across, now is better than later. When he does this behavior and after the correction the dog should have his tail between his legs, ear back saying "I'm sorry". If he thinks you're playing when you're trying to correct him you're in for it. You don't have to hurt him, just scare him. If he's bold, it may take more than you think.

I might catch flack for this one but I've come to use a "scare the crap out of em once" method. I wait til they develop a habit such as you have described, then I, out of the blue, kinda flip out on em. I think it keeps them honest, I don't hardly touch em and make up with em very quick after this. I think it helps if your dog thinks you might be a little crazy. After this they question whether they should disobey me.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:48 pm

by Sprig » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:07 pm

a bit young for an e-collar but i would suggest when he bites to be firm and hold him down, laying on his back, and have your hand on his throat saying the word "no". dont let him up until he submits. now you arent putting pressure on his neck or anything but rather just having him in a very submissive position that will soon teach him he isnt the boss. if you watch dogs play and even fight, usually one will end up on the ground on his back with another going after the throat. this is a dominant/submissive thing in dogs so you can use it also but keep in mind you dont let the dog up until he submits and you arent hurting the dog at all. its a mental form of dominance.
This will solve it... but mom and the kids HAVE to establish the same dominance or they will be subject to different behaviors than you. Don't use the crate, use a spare room, laundry room, cold garage, outsdie kennel...your instinct is correct the crate is a safe place

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm

I am not one for pinning down unless the pup is biting in an mean aggressive manner then yes it is a dominat I am gonna bowl you over come to Jesus meeting

but the playful puppy stuff
Biting and or nipping are undesired behaviors that should be nipped in the bud right at the start. This is the method that I like to use. When the pup starts to bite or nip I will take my 2 fingers and place them sideways in the mouth with my thumb under the jaw. I then place my other hand behind the head. This helps to brace the pup so they cannot harm themselves by pulling away. Hold this position till the pup stops struggling and vocalizing and where the pup relaxes and gives into your hand being in the mouth and as soon as the pup shows that acceptance and get your fingers out of the mouth, quickly say “release” and roll your fingers gently backwards to take them out.
This changes the rules of the pup’s game. I will then place my hand in front of the pup’s mouth; the pup should LICK your hand. This is a sign of accepting who is the alpha. If the pup should try and mouth your hand repeat the application. I have found that after a couple of applications this behavior ceases. And again I want to stress none of these actions are to ever harm or physically hurt the pup ever. The pup may whine and vocalize some discontent but never pain.
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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:30 pm

I would also suggest making sure he is getting a good bit of exercise. He is 10 weeks old so that is not a 10 mile run or something but a good long walk after work, some time to romp around in the yard and play around. When puppies are wound up and haven't burned up some energy they will look for trouble, they also tend to look for trouble when they are tired and about to crash for a nap. I don't put up with puppy biting or nipping at all. I will grab them by the scruff and let them know that is unacceptable. I also start when they are young messing with their mouth, their teeth, rolling them on their back and little things to make them realize that I'm boss. Like others have said your son and wife both have to be a part of this as well. My wife helps with yardwork and knows she has to re-enforce the training at all times and the dogs can't get away with stuff with her that I don't let them do. Your pup might look at you as top dog, but he has to understand your wife and son are higher up in the pecking order than him. Help your son get started on something easy like making your pup sit and he puts his food and water down. Make him sit at the door and your wife and son walk out the door and then the pup can go out the door. Little things make a difference.

Also welcome to the board from a fellow South Carolinian even if you are a gamechicken fan. There is a ton of knowledge and helpful people on this board.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:52 pm

a correction in this situation or your trying to be dominant over the dog does not rectify the problem. The correction is only temporary and the dominant stance may work for you but not for others that interact with the dog. In this situation I would notify and correct the dog when this behavior is shown. Then while you have the dogs attention insert another behavior that the dog has learned such as sit, at which time you notify and reward the wanted behavior. This gives the dog a contrast between the wanted and unwanted behavior making the wanted seem far better. The dog being motivated to please itself will start to recognize the wanted behavior is the behavior that gets the prize. Be sure to be consistent with this training if you allow it some of the time you can expect the dog will be confused and it will effect all your training , the dog needs consistent repetitions for it to grasp any concept. As far as the biting is concerned you need to soften the dogs bite . You should be handling the dogs mouth as much as possible to let the dog understand that your hand in its mouth is normal. Make the dog hold your hand gently in its mouth. You can put the dogs jowls between your hand and the dogs teeth so that when it bites down it is in effect biting itself. When giving the dog treats or toys make the dog work gently around your fingers so it is not snapping at the object but gently taking it from you. Make these exercises fun for the dog. Good luck.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by Winchey » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:05 pm

+1 4DB

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by AzDoggin » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:15 pm

KDgococks wrote:Thanks for the responses. I was concerned that it was too soon for a e-collar, but I started to consider it because of the lack of progress w/ this specific behavior. He has taken so well with the other aspects of training I was getting a bit frustrated w/ this isolated instance. As some of you have advised, pinning him down, pushing him away, popping his nose only amps him up. I have been hesitant to put him in the crate because I have read so much against punishing w/ the kennel. I also want to ensure that the correction is consistent, especially since it has been so much worse w/ my son and to a lesser extent my wife. I want to make sure that if I am not around, they can handle it in the same consistent manner. There is so much information available that sometimes I find it hard to zero in on the best advice.
I'd suggest an exercise pen to keep him in when you are away. Still around family, but can't destroy the furniture or bite. Not punishment -- management, one more tool.

Here is a good article on teaching pups not to bite: http://leerburg.com/pdf/Training%20Pupp ... 20Bite.pdf

I really like the approach described by knine above, too.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by KDgococks » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:29 pm

thanks, some very helpful advice. I think part of my problem, being a newbie, is that I am trying to apply too many things and it is inconsistent. I have been trying to take in as much information as I can so that I don't do more harm than good. I guess when I haven't seen the change in behavior, I may have wavered from one tactic to another. As I read the many threads, I'm thinking "I did that...I did that, also," but in hindsight, I might have been a bit naive regarding the dogs persistance, as well. I think I need to keep it simple.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by AzDoggin » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:21 pm

Hey relax, enjoy, and have fun, this time will be GONE before you know it. The number one priority is socialization - exposure to all the different environments, people, dogs, etc.. You don't really need to worry about training, per se, at all at this young age. Management, yes, training, not nearly as much other than housetraining. This is a special, fun time. It'll turn out fine!!

Delmar Smith said "give that dog his first year, and he'll give you the rest of his life."

In human years, that pup is younger than a 6 month old infant. His brain knows eat, sleep, play, poop and that's about it.

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Re: e-collar for biting/jumping up

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:31 pm

Pick a method...Be consistent
Guide the pup into the desired behaviors deter the undesired

They can grow up with manners as dogs grow into behaviors they do not grow out of them
at the same time remember you have a pup so everything now has to be fair fun and most important timing is key.

A good couple minute session is better then 15 plus minutes of a bad session

quit on good notes leave the pup wanting more if you see the pup even begin loosing excitement or interest in a game STOP and QUIT BEFORE the pup quits you.

reward the desired

Correct the undesired or ignore the attention grabbing stunts..or you will teach your pup to have annoying/bad habits

Do not coddle the unsure behavior..you will only be rewarding the very thing you are trying to stop.

Don't give in

Sometimes taking a step back in training can get you a few steps ahead the next time out.

Good Luck
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

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