Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post Reply
User avatar
4dabirds
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:49 am
Location: Long Island New york

Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by 4dabirds » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:16 pm

I would like to make a case for training dog to be steady to wing and shot and using a trained or forced retrieve. It seems to me that a lot of people are content to let the dog chase after the bird flushes or after the shot. One of the reasons I have read for this is, that the dog will get to the bird faster and can mark the bird better . It seems to me that if the dog is standing still he can focus on marking the bird better and the dog will use his nose to find the bird the second time just like the first. It also keeps the dog from bumping a second bird . It keeps the dog safe while the gunners are shooting which should always be from in front of the dog. The trained retrieve is the icing on the cake that conserves the birds that may be few and far between. Just curious what others think about this?

User avatar
nikegundog
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
Location: SW Minnesota

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by nikegundog » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:37 pm

I'm a die hard pheasant hunter who has always hunted with labs but now I own a springer. I don't want a steady dog, in thick crp or cattails I want my dog to have that 1 second advantage against a running rooster. Haven't had bumping birds be much of an issue, I believe most steady dogs are released immediately following the shot so its the same chance for bumping. If I'm hunting in crp and my dog flushes and watches the bird fall he's already cover half the ground by the time I could release him. With my springer my dog would have to flush then sit in grass over his head waiting for the release, if he looks back to me for the release he's lost his mark. I recently acquired a young springer that I've thought about trialing, whats holding me back is the fact that he would have to be broke.
Last edited by nikegundog on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:15 pm

I think it's called "broke."
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:20 pm

This is a tough proposition to debate.

There is merit to both sides of the argument and value to hunters who ascribe to either way of hunting.

In many cases it comes down to how much time and effort the hunter is willing, or able, to put into the training of the dog and in the case of the steady dog, the continuing maintenance.

I have been on both sides of this issue. I started out as a hunter with a staunch dog. Now i do field trials so my dogs have to be steady. I do AF trials, so retrieving is not required, but that is just another level of training that the dog has to undergo and another level of steadiness that must be maintained.

A staunch dog(one that breaks with flight of the bird) is a little easier to train, can be made staunch at a much earlier age and gotten into the field much sooner, and a staunch dog is much easier to maintain. The totally steady dog is ALWAYS in training, you cannot let them slip. If you are in postion and the (formerly)staunch dog takes a step and the bird busts...it ain't no big deal to work on that after the dog brings the bird back.

It comes down to(I think) what is most important to each individual hunter and their situation.

I can make that choice for me, and I have. I would hesitate to promote my choice for someone else because their needs and situation may be much different from mine.

RayG

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by northern cajun » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:29 pm

To each his own and I agree with Ray, but I like a steady dog how many times have I seen a dog break and there goes more birds busted no shells in gun. I like to work all of them before releasing my dog, but that is just me.

But like I said to each his own, do what you like best and works for you.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS

DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by AzDoggin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:36 pm

RayGubernat wrote:It comes down to(I think) what is most important to each individual hunter and their situation.

I can make that choice for me, and I have. I would hesitate to promote my choice for someone else because their needs and situation may be much different from mine.

RayG
There is an echo around here, Ray. I read that from Joe (Chukar12) yesterday.

I agree completely and think there is an awful lot of wisdom in those words.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:53 pm

I have owned, trained and hunted over dogs both ways on a variety of birds in a variety of field conditions. I prefer the steady dog in all situations for the reasons outlined in the original post. That being said, I must admit that I still own and hunt with some dogs that are not broke - I am too lazy to finish the training on them. They put birds in the bag as much as the steady ones do.

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:14 am

4daBirds,
IMO this all comes down to the owners personal requirements and how he or she hunts. There is great merit to both training techniques depending on the
owners needs. Most of our clients who hunt Grouse want a dog who breaks on guns shot, the good dog learns real quickly not to break on shot, if there is more than one bird. Most of our clients who hunt Quail want a steady to wing and shot bird dog, for hunting singles and coveys. The most advanced training we do is for versatile flush on command dogs, it take a great deal of repetative work and experience to fully train this kind of dog. Again it all come down to which type of hunting the owner does and what dog breed he owns.
RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:48 am

Most of these conversations boil down to preference and opinion unless per chance, and quite infrequently one of us asks; "how do you do this?" I can, have and would hunt all day long with a pointing dog that would simply hold long enough for us to flush and get a shot. Rnikkel describes his dogs in another post and they sound to me like hunting dogs I would love to spend a day with. I began breaking dogs when I discovered that my treasured old chukar dog was packing around pellets from my exploits in guidng. Too often delayed flush birds put her in harms way apparently and we never knew it...not so much as a yelp. I felt a pellet in her head one day and had some x-rays taken, she has half a dozen in her.

My interest then went to horseback trials and advanced dog training, the latter being an obsession according to the school teacher I live with. WSF and a trained retrieve is an extension of a very well trained animal. It works well in most hunting applications I have ever been involved in, and is not rocket science to achieve. HOWEVER, maintaining that level of discipline is not easy. DOgs that are pre-disposed to chasing birds are going to want to do it...they aren't broke... they are recovering chasers that have been put through a twelve step program. Many hunters by nature enjoy dog work, and their primary objective is game in the bag, so in my experience great many of us hunt and train congruently and almost exclusively. I don't believe our timing and consistency is good enough to make the most effective corrections while handling a gun. So...dogs never reach maturity being reliable on a large scale in the hunting dog population, I believe that is why most pointing dogs aren't "broke" and isn't that ok for most purposes?

User avatar
Ruffshooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Ruffshooter » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:59 am

I try to keep my dogs Steady till I send them for the retrieve or break them off on a no shot or missed shot. I am not such a great shot. So when a bird is missed, I do not want that dog chasing a bird that is not hit. Although most dogs realize this is not a wounded bird and break off on their own. But I also do not wish to have to yell at the dog to break off. I also find most of the time it is better for the dog to remain steady while we work to flush the bird, which sometimes is in the trees or in a brush pile, blow down thick firs etc. I guess My focus is better when the dog is steady. I also will remind the dog to remain steady as I move in, just incase they get any funny ideas about screwing me over.

I would say if I were not so lazy I would train the dog to flush the bird upon command after the point. But alas I am to lazy.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:44 pm

Ruffshooter wrote: I would say if I were not so lazy I would train the dog to flush the bird upon command after the point. But alas I am to lazy.
That too.

aeast8
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:25 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by aeast8 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:00 pm

When I got my gsp I wanted a completely finished dog. Then I realized that we would be hunting with dogs that are not finished. Therefore, he would never get to retrieve because the other dogs would already be on the downed birds. I didn't think this was fair. So I trained him to release on the sound of the gun. This takes care of some of the safety issues, but not all of them.

User avatar
barthowes
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: Vermont

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by barthowes » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:08 pm

My ultimate dream is to have my britt "Steady to wing and shot". Too many times while we were hunting she would bump a second bird chasing the first one I shot. Because I never miss............. :wink:

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Neil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:59 pm

I will keep with the not telling others how to enjoy their dog, but I train both my Britts and my Boykins to be steady to wing, shot, and fall, honor other dogs and retrieves.

It works for me because I do not train in a step program, I just train them that way from the beginning, it is just easier for me to have a finished dog,

Neil

User avatar
doco
Rank: Champion
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 am
Location: Massena, NY - on the Northermost US/Canadian Border

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by doco » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:57 pm

IMO, I also agree with the commonality of this thread to each their own. However, I don't want or like to hunt over dogs that are not completely broke to wing a shot. Two reasons. While in SD this year, a young setter locked up to the left of me. As I went in, the owner of the dog was off to my right and takes pleasure in shooting a 28ga over his pointers. Therefore he snap shoots quickly and accurately. The rooster came up and flew to my left and never go more than 6' off the ground. I chose not to shoot, however, the dogs owner 8 yards to my right shot past me, over the chasing dogs head and dropped the bird. A third member asked me why I didn't shoot and I said loudly "It's not my dogs head to shoot over". I know, moral of the story "know who you're huntiong with". This was my 4th year with this party and hadn't seen this before. But that is when accidents happen.

2nd reason, I enjoy taking children hunting and therefore with a steady dog, I never have to worry about the dog being shot. You can always position shooters, most of the time. I guess for me it is a safety factor. I consider it one less thing to have to worry about.

Like someone earlier posted, they'll get their chance to retrieve with their noses. Their a lot better than their eyes.
If You Ain't Lettin Lead Fly, Nothin Falls......

KJ's Hightailing Saddle x Von Grief's Abbey Road Litter
Whelped 12/23/2010

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3061

Image
FC Von Greif's Abbey Road
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3059


Image
FC/AFC Heidi Von Greif
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3060

johnson48
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:45 pm
Location: Central Illinois

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by johnson48 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:00 pm

I have had 2 dogs that broke on shot. Always enjoyed hunting over them. I would call them my meat dogs as they are high strung to beat the bird to the ground. As Ive grown more into the training venue, which I enjoy as much as the hunt, I find that I enjoy hunting over my steady to wing/shot/fall dog the most. Its not about the meat to me or I would be hunting much bigger animals out of my tree stand. To me its about a well mannered dog that has retained its training.

Just as I will not shoot a bumped bird, I now find myself holding off the trigger if I see her start to move. And my list of friends I will hunt with over their "sloppy" dogs is getting larger. I may be hunting by myself soon. But that's just the way I enjoy it- with a well finished, mannered dog.

Just as a side note, we (my broke dog and I) competed in some timed shoot to retrieve trials last Fall. I seemed to be the only fellow there with a steady dog??? Makes sense as you want the dog to retrieve back as fast as possible. We held our own and finished runner up, just out by a few seconds. If she wasn't broke could we have made first place? I doubt it. Probably handler error, but doesn't matter. Best of both worlds to me.

Some judge their pleasure off birds in the air, some birds in the bag and as for me its the finished dog work.

User avatar
EvanG
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:07 pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by EvanG » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:19 am

4dabirds wrote:I would like to make a case for training dog to be steady to wing and shot and using a trained or forced retrieve. It seems to me that a lot of people are content to let the dog chase after the bird flushes or after the shot..... Just curious what others think about this?
What breed of dog is this?

EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa

There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum

User avatar
4dabirds
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:49 am
Location: Long Island New york

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by 4dabirds » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:48 pm

EvanG wrote:
4dabirds wrote:I would like to make a case for training dog to be steady to wing and shot and using a trained or forced retrieve. It seems to me that a lot of people are content to let the dog chase after the bird flushes or after the shot..... Just curious what others think about this?
What breed of dog is this?

EvanG
Any pointing breed but I guess you can make the same case for any flushing dog that sits to flush rather then just flushing.

User avatar
Sprig
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:57 am

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by Sprig » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:01 pm

i have had both, pointers that were broke to wing/shot and some that weren't. i like to watch a dog be fully steady, it is very stylish. i have hunted with dogs that break on the flush/shot too and done well with them so i dont see a huge advantage either way. it definitely takes a lot more time to get a dog to that level but not necessary for a good gun dog, but cool to see. 8)

User avatar
nikegundog
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
Location: SW Minnesota

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by nikegundog » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:46 pm

What breed of dog is this?
For flushing dogs, Spaniels are the only dogs that I know of.

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: Steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve

Post by northern cajun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:24 pm

doco wrote:IMO, I also agree with the commonality of this thread to each their own. However, I don't want or like to hunt over dogs that are not completely broke to wing a shot. Two reasons. While in SD this year, a young setter locked up to the left of me. As I went in, the owner of the dog was off to my right and takes pleasure in shooting a 28ga over his pointers. Therefore he snap shoots quickly and accurately. The rooster came up and flew to my left and never go more than 6' off the ground. I chose not to shoot, however, the dogs owner 8 yards to my right shot past me, over the chasing dogs head and dropped the bird. A third member asked me why I didn't shoot and I said loudly "It's not my dogs head to shoot over". I know, moral of the story "know who you're huntiong with". This was my 4th year with this party and hadn't seen this before. But that is when accidents happen.

2nd reason, I enjoy taking children hunting and therefore with a steady dog, I never have to worry about the dog being shot. You can always position shooters, most of the time. I guess for me it is a safety factor. I consider it one less thing to have to worry about.

Like someone earlier posted, they'll get their chance to retrieve with their noses. Their a lot better than their eyes.
Exactly your in control of the situation more. You dont have to hurry or anything.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS

DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN

Post Reply