2 Males fighting

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:42 pm

I have a 12 month old male SM and a friend of mine had a 2 year old Male DD. He lives about 3 hours away from me and comes up to train together and stays at the house with us.
My dog has serious issues with his dog. It has gotten pretty tense around here a few times, luckly without any injuries to either dog. It has also happened at his house when I've come to visit.
What we have tried to do was use the collar and whenever there was a square off, both dogs were corrected with collars. To me, this has escalated the problem, atleast with my dog.
With my dog I first grabbed is muzzle and corrected with NO! When this did nothing to correct the problem I tried rolling my dog when he would growl or try to square off........Not working. Instead my dog will now just go to my bedroom and sulk.
Not fun that my dog can't roam his own house, equally not fun that my guest's dog has to be crated sometimes.
These 2 hunted together wonderfully all weekend. Not a single issue was had. But, put them in my house and it's always tense and if the DD walks within a couple feet of my dog my dog will snap at him and potentially start world war 3.
Simple solution to me is to keep them apart, maybe rotate them in and out.
But, is there somehthng I can do to try and get them to get along?
I understand it is a dominate issue but, as far as I care, they dont have to like each other, but they have to get along.

Is it simply an issue of the dogs not thinking that a human is dominant?

Lots of variables out there and I may not have given every little detail. If you have questions about the situation that would help find an answer I'm more than willing to answer honestly. I've owned a variety of dogs for the last 15+ years and have never had this issue with 2 males in a house.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:57 pm

Mary,

Don't use the collars when they are close and wanting to fight or spar. They think the other dog did that to them and will many times jump the other dog right there. It will teach them to fight and not what you want. I am not familar with the attitude of the SM but mnost of the dogs that come from Germany or that area still have what they like to call sharpness bred into them and it makes it hard to have two males together with a lot of them. I know the DD is very much that way so you might have a problem unless you just keep them crated.

Ezzy

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:01 pm

I wish i could give you the magic answer so both dogs can get along in the house, i have had many dogs males and females the only problem i have ever had is one of my females can get bird possessive around other females, I have heard of the versatile breeds specifically the German breeds being more aggressive towards dogs than other breeds weather that is true or not I don't know I've only owned 1 GSP and she was the most happy go lucky dog in the world, you might have some luck looking in to some of the Dog whisperers training he does a lot of work with dog's that are dog aggressive.

And as for using the e-collar as a means of correction DON'T if you have done the collar conditioning properly he doesn't know stimulation is coming from the collar and when he is corrected around the other dog he thinks that the other dog did it and not you or the collar hence making the situation worse, Just my 2 cents,
Joe

Ezzy you were writing the same time as me no fare lol

sully511 · Post by **sully511** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:08 pm

It would probably be best to just keep them separated. Even if there has not been a fight where there are injuries yet, my bet is that at some point there will be. There are dogs out there that will literally try to kill each other. It sounds like it's more of a territory thing if it happens in the house and not in the fields, but it's hard to say. Some dogs will go at it at just the sight of each other. Quite honestly, if I had a visitor with a dog at my house, I would fully expect the visitor to understand that his/her dog may have to be confined if the dogs don't get along. Maybe put them both in crates in the living room or whatever so they are not in solitary confinement. And I agree with the other posts, don't use the e-collar, that will make it worse for sure.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:49 pm

I feel like the home owners dog has presidence...It is his home and dogs can be very territorial over their domain...His dog coming in your home should stay crated or crated in the car. My male has a wonderful temperment(GWP)...But is not going to tolerate a strange male in his house. Same for going to his house..Your dog stay crated or in the vehicle. It would be a shame to jeporize their ability to hunt together, and I believe it will if they continue sparring.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:02 am

snips wrote:I feel like the home owners dog has presidence...It is his home and dogs can be very territorial over their domain...His dog coming in your home should stay crated or crated in the car. My male has a wonderful temperment(GWP)...But is not going to tolerate a strange male in his house. Same for going to his house..Your dog stay crated or in the vehicle. It would be a shame to jeporize their ability to hunt together, and I believe it will if they continue sparring.

Yup. Err on the side of caution. You are not that far away from a nasty fight and a trip to the vet for some stitches. Agree with Brenda - at least the dogs can hunt together now, but if they get into a brawl, they may not be able to. Meanwhile, keep working with the dominance in your dog - chances are it's showing itself in other ways in the house as well. At 12 months, he's still developing and trying to figure out his place in your pack. He seems to think it's a little higher in rank than it should be (most do, including your kids

). Here's one approach: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Another option if you want to keep both dogs out of their crates in the house would be to tether each dog to it's owner with a short leash to your belts and be careful how close you get to one another for awhile. That would allow you to control their proximity, and also to correct any posturing very early in the sequence. Both owners need to stay calm with good leadership - don't talk to the dogs too much - you are not 'anticipating' a fight, you're correcting dominant posturing. I've had very good luck doing this (I used a prong collar), but it's not the most convenient thing in the world for the owners. Eventually as they start to show they can get along better in the house, with no growling or posturing, you can increase the length of the tethers and then let them drag the lines. Both dogs need to know that the HUMANS are in charge and that absolutely no conflict between the dogs will be tolerated, period. This can take awhile - and may be difficult if you only see your friend every now and then.

There may be some stuff in here that addresses the problem. http://leerburg.com/pdf/introducingdogs.pdf

Good luck.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:00 am

Thank you for all the good info.
I definatly agree on the collar issue. It made sense to me at the time, but was following advise from another trainer friend of mine. He will correct the dogs with the collars if they tag or square off in the field. There must be a differance somewhere because it works for him. Maybe to close of quarters? I dont know.
I hesitate to label MAx as dog aggressive. He has been around several other dogs in several situations. I take him in pet stores and training days with no issue.
I have had other dogs(spayed females) inmy house with no issue.
Is it dumb to think that some dogs just dont like certain dogs?
It is like I told my buddy, we will make it work here, our friendship goes way to far back to jepordize it over a couple of bonehead dogs.

Again, I thank you for the replies.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:34 am

It is HIS house tho...His territory.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:59 am

snips wrote:It is HIS house tho...His territory.

Oh, yeah, it sounds like "territory guarding" to me too, and another strong male dog will bring out the challenge the most.

I assume Max isn't making the mortgage payment, though. Munster doesn't need to accept the behavior - my bet is that over time his dog will learn what he wants.

Hey, Munster, dog's may or may not "like or dislike" each other, but does it really matter? What matters is how they behave toward one another - that's the one thing we can do something about over time.

My son brought a new dog into our pack last June. Our most dominant (resident) dog is JUST NOW starting to show more acceptance and even some occasional play with the dog. This is after way too many snarls, growls and snips to count. It can take time...but we're getting there.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:46 am

I do need to add something that I forgot about.
When we hunted this weekend, we stayed at an apartment that was neutral territory. The same thing happened there as it did at both of our houses.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:52 am

They have established that they do not get along, and for unacceptable behavior I use a choke chain and lift them in the air for a bit..When their feet hit the ground again they should have a new respect for YOU. You are the boss. If a dog growls and hackles I will give a here command to call them away...Aggression should stop at that point, you have spoken...If dog does not respond to you they find out they SHOULD have. Then correction entails with choke chain...You should figure out the dog that is instigating and go after him.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:31 am

Agreed. We will try the choke chain or pinch with them. They are leaving today though and the DD doesnt have one. We will do the best we can.
It all just bums me out because they are both great dogs, they just dont get along.

Thanks for all the replies.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:43 am

Contrary to popular belief dogs hold grudges. It may not be possible to let them work it out but I find breaking everything up before it is settled causes them to settle things later. They have to have a rematch so to speak if it always ends in a draw. I don't have an answer other than let them tear each other up which isn't really an option. The other is keep a constant eye on them and try to slowly desensitize them which may never produce the results you want. If they are high drive retrievers I find distracting with a dummy or you can use anything the dogs value a lot to lure them away from each other before the fight breaks out. It would take two people, one to distract each dog and you would both have to be on the ball and be able to read the dogs well because once it hits a certain point you won't be able to lure. You can do it with force but I have a feeling they will always get into it when your back is turned. The other is keep them seperated. Anyway's I am no pro, take it for what it's worth, not much.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:16 pm

Object is to break it up before it starts...Should never get that far...I am not a believer in letting them settle it...I think it only makes them better fighters....

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:31 pm

snips wrote:Object is to break it up before it starts...Should never get that far...I am not a believer in letting them settle it...I think it only makes them better fighters....

Agreed.

As someone else said, if the dogs don't and never will like each other, I'd be inclined to keep them separated. We watch dogs for friends all the time, and if any of them just can't get along with one of ours, we simply don't give them the chance to square off. If they do exhibit attitude, I'd do something like Brenda says.

When one comes over, we always do the introductions off-lead in the backyard under close watch. Having them leashed only seems to make them more apt to be aggressive. We let them loose, if anyone starts bowing up, we correct them. After a few minutes, they figure each other out and are fine. It's worked for us many times.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:23 pm

snips wrote:Object is to break it up before it starts...Should never get that far...I am not a believer in letting them settle it...I think it only makes them better fighters....

You bet. It makes them more reactive, that's for sure, and sometimes the reactivity can spread to other dogs. If the owner isn't going to step in, the dog learns he has to survive on his own.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:50 pm

snips wrote:Object is to break it up before it starts...Should never get that far...I am not a believer in letting them settle it...I think it only makes them better fighters....

I think I am going to take the"not let it happen" approach. I will just alternate the dogs when he comes to visit. A little bit more of a hassel but I think it is worth it.

They hunted great together today. But we never have problems when they hunt.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:41 pm

I don't think you can ever really stop two dogs from fighting. You may control it in your presence, you'll never stop it. They will never settle it themselves, though they may kill each other. That's a pretty final settlement.

Ecollars won't end it. Beating the dog's won't end it. Strict and unyielding obedience MAY control it.

Ain't no magic bullet.

pointshootretrieve · Post by **pointshootretrieve** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:52 pm

Muzzle the two and watch them very closely when one or both show signs of getting it on you need to break the trance. Make the aggressor lay down ( head between front paws) while the other is walked around over etc. Allow no growling, fussing, etc. Don't get ugly and show aggression or anger yourself be calm and assertive. Watch some CESAR he is the master with aggressive dogs.

Tall Boy · Post by **Tall Boy** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:51 pm

About the only thing that works is feeding hotdogs to each dog whenever they first see each other (not just when they arrive, but constantly thoughout each day). Also, having your dog on a leash will only make them feel more vulnerable and exaserbate the problem. Just keep them separated and a couple times a day bring them in the same room and start feeding them hotdogs or something. It does work, but not all the time. All it does is start to subtly put in their brain an association between the dog and a reward, with enough reps it will work.

You usually will never have a dog fight hunting, although I've had one with a blinking dog (different story). You can turn two un-neutered males loose in the woods and they won't fight.

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