Force Fetch... "Driving" the dog through the birds

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:09 pm

I'm a lil bothered, a lil perplexed, and a lil intrigued(but not much intrigue).

I know how to Force Fetch and have done so successfully in the past, but I've never given much thought to how fast a dog gets to the object to be retrieved.

a lil bachground...
Wellll, I was at a training seminar this past Saturday for Md. Chapter of RGS to fill a hole that had been left by a trainer that had bailed on them at the last possible minute. They called me last weekend to see if I could help out and while I wasn't really prepared, I accepted with the understanding I would only go over VERY BASIC yard work such as Whoa, Heel, Come, etc... It turned out that most of the folks there were NAVHDA guys, no big deal I thought, I follow much of what is in the Green Book, though my demo was going to be oversimplified for experienced folks. Big Surprise, apparently the Green Book is not how things are done now as I was informed by a NAVHDA fella who asked to do a demo of the "NEW NAVHDA WAY".

The gentleman stated that his 1 yr. old dog out of unnamed kennel had not been trained Whoa, Heel, Come and that it could be trained in minutes with an e-collar.(Somewhat shocking)! He further stated he was training FF and would include Steadiness as he progressed with FF. He went through the basics of Fetch; Fetch, Hold; Fetch from distance, hold; etc... overlaying the e-collar from the ear pinch; so far-so good... then he explained what was even more shocking to me...(sorry for the pun) The "NEW" way is to "DRIVE" the dog through the bumper/object/bird as the dog progress' off of the table. What he explained is, you maintain continuous stimulation until the dog reaches the bumper and then remove the stimulation when the bumper/object/bird is picked up in effect "Driving" the dog straight through the bumper/bird and back with no goofing around. Out and Back, Out and Back..... The GSP seemed eager (He!! yea, he was being shocked) and it did seem that the GSP was dead fast about performing and was taking it well, but what of softer dogs or perhaps a younger dog? It seems that everyone these days is in an all fired rush to title pups younger and younger and to He!! with being a pup!

I'm not really sure what to make of it and am curious what others think. It's hard to argue with success, but are there other methods or better methods of getting that dog out and back fast? It is relatively easy to reel in the dog fast with a 25 or 50" lead or flexi-lead after a successful retrieve, but what of getting to the retrieve faster? What is the new fascination of replacing leadwork with e-collars? How about not doing the basic Whoa, Heel, Come work first? Is this the "NEW NAVHDA WAY"? It's got me outta sorts at the moment thinking about it all...

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:20 pm

I did FF training with the ear pinch, and took a long time in doing it. Now my dog sprints to the bird and brings it back as quickly as he can. I believe I got this same "drive" by positive praise reinforcement when it was done right.

Impatience is the king of all training killers, so, for me, it wouldn't be worth it to do that method. Others will certainly have different opinions based on different circumstances.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:11 pm

Bruce, this training is now called NAVHDA, but has been mostly dirived from the Lab people. It is taught to have a correction when the dog is in the water and has to be pushed further. So, the basics are pushing them to the pile to start with, then when a dog is failing in the water you have a correction to "force" them out. This is my understanding of it. I have been to a Clyde Vetter seminar that uses "avoidance" training for about everything. As, he does a very good seminar, my opinion of this type of training is, I am not training my dogs for one big test, so I want something left of my dog when he comes out of it. NAVHDA is training for 1 thing, to pass a test. This, aviodance method IMO, is very stressful on dogs, as they are learning thru force, therefore he does not look like he is happy about it. (I would not be.) IMO, it takes a top notch trainer to deliver the proper levels of stimulation to produce the desired result in Avoidance training, and is not something to be used by 1 dog owners or many people that are trying to figure out how to train their own dog. This is just my honest take on it.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:30 pm

Brenda

I agree all the way. That new NAVHDA "Avoidance" training is fast, productive, but just the wrong way to do things. The dogs being breed by certain individuals that promote this are dogs that can take alot of pressure in training. In getting these dogs I think they are progressing away from the whole original intent of NAVHDA which was to have versatile dogs, that could be triained by thier owner(s) and be an all around hunting dog/companion animal. These hard headed dogs are too much for the amateur trainer and also may have some other issue (ie... agression) that renders them suspect at best as a family companion.

The e-collar is a wonderful tool that continues to find itself in new ways of misuse all the time. The foundations of good dog training still lie in the whoa (board, table, barrel, etc), the checkcord, and lots and lots of patience. Whats the big deal if your dog is 3-5 yrs old before they pass a Utility Test or an MH test as oppossed to forcing them through at 12-15 months and having a mechanical dog with maybe other issues.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:17 pm

It just brings to light that there are poor trainers with
little dog knowhow out there.

Whilst a dog indeed needs training I would hope to believe the majority of us think a little more kindly of our pals then to subject them to that "system", and I would imagine quite a few confused dogs are ruined that way, owners no doubt told "they can't take the pressure"
:roll:

Ps. a dog with tail wagging but held low is showing uncertainty, confusion.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:58 pm

OK, I'm feeling a bit better now. Like I said, it is pretty hard to argue with success, but I left feeling VERY uncomfortable with the whole thing. I do train using a lot of the "Old NAVHDA" ways, all positive re-inforcement, and this all seemed 180 degrees from what I believed Bodo Winterhelt had in mind. At least, it is 180 from the green book and the video. Being in a NAVHDA Black Hole where I have to travel 3 hours to training sessions, I have been a member of the National Org., but fortunately missed out on the Charter level training. Thank God!! It's like I told the one gentleman there, who also was uncomfortable with it, "I'd rather go slow and steady and do it right than mess a dog up". While it might work, it is not my cup of tea. I'd rather have a dog go out for a retrieve happily and enjoy the overall hunt or test as much as I do.

Brenda,
You nailed it right on the head, Bullseye! I did a lot of research on it over the past 2 days and kept coming back to the same place. You can't beat success, but like you, I want something left of my dog. JMHO also. What were your thoughts coming away from the seminar?

Original,
Fast and furious is indeed the best way to describe it. It was suggested that the dog was bought to fit the training, rather than the training designed to fit the the dog. I agree with you, I do not think Bodo could be happy with this and it is definately 180 from NAVHDA's original intent. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. I don't think, or at least hope, that not all Chapters are taking this approach. I know that I certainly didn't see this kind of attitude at Appalachian Valley Chapter this past Fall when I was out there for a NA Test. They were just a bunch of "Good Ol' Boys" having fun training and working their dogs and had more of the kind of positive atmosphere I have come to know of NAVHDA and what I would hope to continue to see in the future.

I think I'll be sticking to the old methods....Does this mean I'm getting to be Ol' School?

I HOPE NOT!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:48 pm

From the background I came from in Obedience, I was really not impressed with using an E collar for heeling, FF, and every other thing they want to teach. Watching a dog heeling while looking like he is being whipped is not my cup of tea. Even the lowest levels of stimulation on a dog for long periods really stresses them. Stress, IMO, will manifest in many other unwanted behaviors. I found it very interesting how precise they had this training down pat, but not without that stress. Even when I FF, I do things that lighten the stress to keep up the attitude. I am a strong believer in not rushing things, I am SO not impressed with people boasting "youngest MH", or MH by 9 mo. I like animated happy working dogs and I am much more impressed with that dog/handler team that are doing it together thru mutual respect, and not fear.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:09 pm

Our lab had a very slow retrieve after her FF was done. I was told also about this "Driving" by several retriever trainers. They said to use a constant mild "bump, bump, bump" with the collar until the dog reaches the pile. I skipped the "driving" feeling it was that enthusaism is not forced.
The next step was a drill with lots of dummies in a row or circle. You walk the dog around and only command to FETCH some of the dummies, making them skip some. I felt like this drill really helped define CONFIDENCE in my lab's mind, and she started pouncing on those dummies once she got the trick. After that never had a speed issue unless I pushed too hard with drills that were boring. Even the slightest slowing down, told me that she was bored or tired and it was time to stop or kick it up with real birds depending.

So... I have seen it work and makes the dogs FLY to their retrieve and gives false impression of enthusiasm, but I didn't need it and don't plan to... Real birds do wonders for a slow dog.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:23 pm

My Father always taught me "anything worth doing, is worth doing well". I have to wonder, have we as owners/handlers/trainers forgot what we did before e-collars? I have them and will use them as neccesary for re-enforcement at a distance where I am not in a position to enforce a command otherwise, but I'd be willing to bet I didn't push the buttons 2 dozen times in the past year and that has been on 6 different dogs! They are a very good tool, but I thinks birds and leads are far better tools of the trade to ply for an overall healthy, happy bird dog that wants to hunt for and with you! Maybe I just don't get it, but I think I'd rather not get it to be honest.

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:17 am

More prized ut dogs have been ruined ny the "burn them to the pile " method,then you want to know about.It was a method being used by the force trainers for the blind retrieve in the invite,which when I stopped running navhda was being brought into bank avoidance
in the duck search.
The pro's had found a way to force a dog to do a duck search,by making the bank hot.This made a dog swim out of sight,and look like he was searching for a duck,as he was burned if he came back early,so the dog learned to run away and hide until he was called.
This type of training,and the dogs that are handling it,are a big problem with navhda,they are heavily titled,but they might be completely manmade,with few natural abilities,other than the abilty
to handle heavy pressure.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:10 am

You know Larue,

The more I've thought about this, the madder I have gotten, because I wonder how many dogs have endeed up in the trash pile(Rescue, Shelters, etc...) because they couldn't take that kind of heat and were dismissed because their breeding was not considered to be good since they couldn't take it. I've always set my training to the dogs needs, not the other way around. Right now, I am second guessing my future participation in, or recommendation of, NAVHDA!

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:21 am

My International dues expire this may and I am not renewing.

This isn't saying that there still aren't some great people in NAVHDA, I have met some very good friends over the years in our local chapter. I also think for a first time dog owner/trainer, it can be a great starting point IF they fall in with the right people.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:18 am

Not only that Bruce, what about all the multi-titled dogs that are the top NAVHDA breeding stock that have done it off of these training methods. It would make me really question breeding to one of these males.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:21 am

Wow, this is shocking to read. That is not a good method IMHO. I still belive anyone that uses an e collar needs to use it on his leg first so he knows what he is doing to the dog, this will tend to get a guy to use it less. I use one for recall when the dog runs out after a deer or other varmint, I let em bust birds when young cause they will learn it just dont work that way, a smart dog will learn and adjust without a shock. Heck you wouldnt use it in this fashion on your kids now would ya?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:08 pm

original mngsp wrote:My International dues expire this may and I am not renewing.

This isn't saying that there still aren't some great people in NAVHDA, I have met some very good friends over the years in our local chapter. I also think for a first time dog owner/trainer, it can be a great starting point IF they fall in with the right people.

My first NAVHDA experience was pretty positive. Very nice helpful people, not into pushing the dogs too hard. I plan to continue, at least for a while and give it a chance.

I also know many really good retrievers that were trained this way. I think that they would be just as good, trained in more gentle ways, but the trainers aren't patient enough and just want a fast furious retrieve that wins points from the judges. I guess this is where the competition pushes for speed again. More retrieves, more speed, more points, more wins. NAVHDA was not meant to be competative though, so I don't see the need. Is the invatational test timed maybe?

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:10 pm

Laurie, the reasons for this method are for the prolonged duck search. Of course for the retrieving exercises as well, but a dog, whether he finds the duck or not, has to stay out searching. Forcing the dog out with the Ecollar is a way of doing this. Plain and simple desire was the only way of passing in the past, today the Ecollar is used in many areas of testing at higher levels, mostly to hurry up end results. Trainers of client dogs that want their trainer to put their dog thru higher testing has to accomplish many avenues in as short a time as possible. You spoke of forcing your Lab, would you use this method with Jed? Labs on the average can take alot more pressure than many birddogs, not that you cannot use this with birddogs. I am not against the ecollar use, I use them everyday, I just don`t care for avoidance use.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:54 am

Hope the "new" NAVHDA way is only an isolated thing, it's certainly not used in our chapter. Although almost everywhere it has become more of a dog "sport" where winning (Prize 1) seems to be the only goal. ie. Pro trainers and handlers for NA dogs :roll: :roll:

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:03 am

Let me repost...

mountaindogs wrote: ....I skipped the "driving" feeling that it was enthusaism [which] is not forced.
The next step was a drill with lots of dummies in a row or circle. You walk the dog around and only command to FETCH some of the dummies, making them skip some. I felt like this drill really helped define CONFIDENCE in my lab's mind, and she started pouncing on those dummies once she got the trick. After that never had a speed issue unless I pushed too hard with drills that were boring. Even the slightest slowing down, told me that she was bored or tired and it was time to stop or kick it up with real birds depending.

So... I have seen it work and makes the dogs FLY to their retrieve and gives false impression of enthusiasm, but I didn't need it and don't plan to... Real birds do wonders for a slow dog.

Brenda,
I DIDN"T use it on the Lab... as I said I felt that you can't force enthusiasm. Would I use it on Jed- NO, NOT katie, NOT lady, Not some lab in the future. I Just don't like the method. I have seen it work on dogs, but I was just trying to say that I bet they would have learned a more natural way if given more time. I didn't think it was negatively reflecting on the DOG, just the trainer.

But now, that I read your last post, I do see where a lack of drive inate in the dog could be hidden this way. I shall have to keep it in mind. THAT could be a very bad thing.

A side topic - retrievers are trained early on that when sent on retrieve they have to get it, they don't come back without it. This is not (that I have ever seen) trained with force, but just ignoring the dog or a gentle , noooo and reminder of command if they return without it. Sometimes walk a little closer to the dummy so they have an easier time, and command "hunt it up" or some other excited sounding command to keep them interested and looking. This is puppy stuff, and should not need it much when you get the refined retrieving. The driving, was just used for speed after the FF, because the dog should already know not to return without the retrieve. But I do see how it could be used for either. Don't like it either way. The dog should keep searching and do it with enthusiasm because the game is fun, the bird is fun. "Driving" does not sound like "fun" for the dog.

Another side topic - the drill that DID help her- with the dummies in line, is not a force drill. It comes after the force and is helping the dog to ignore the visual site of a dummy or duck unless commanded to fetch. You just heel them through the line of dummies, selecting only some for the dog to retrieve. If she picked up the dummy without a command, I just said NO, placed it back on the ground, and we kept going. Mabel gained alot of confidence doing this, And learned to really listen for the command and wait for it. This is when she started to really speed up. She wanted to play and hated when I ignored the dummy and she didn't get to fetch it.

Hope I have cleared things up - please don't go away with idea that I liked this method...

Laurie

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:06 am

Brenda,
You brought up another thought for me on this as did another post somewhere else on the board. Gentleman announced he was getting a pup out of X kennel, X Sire & Dam where this training seems to have started in NAVHDA. Is he aware of what he might be in for? Is he aware of the training style that may very well be the only style suitable to train the pup because of the genetics behind it? Will he get turned off by GSP's thinking all of us others who have them are crazy to think they are a wonderful companion? What of the folks that in buying their 1st GSP have researched the lines of dogs available and fall into the belief that since they are buying a NAVHDA bred pup out of parents that are VC'd, they are buying the very best, and then get a pup that is either very hard and stubborn or unruly? Instead of the kind of GSP that works to please? Maybe not so good with children? Those kind of issues bother me....

Now I could see where this could possibly work with a retriever. I had a Lab that for all the love he had, he almost required a 2x4 to get his attention(hypothetically speaking) sometimes! He loved to retrieve, but was just stubborn and needed the right incentives on my part..... a good brushing after each retrieve with a stiff grooming brush

He wouldn't come back without the bumper though, cause he knew that was the only way to get brushed down!

Poor Taste on my part edited out. Apologies.

Laurie,
You just go to prove with your statements that it is not necessary and I thank and commend you for finding another, in my mind, better alternative. Just requires patience as you said! I certainly didn't get the impression you liked this method from what you have said.

Kevin,
Like you, I hope it is isolated, but I'm willing to bet that the desire to push for those Prize 1's and VC's is going to see "Avoidance" coming into play more, especially if people are actually using pros for NA Test! Kinda taking the owner out of the original NAVHDA equation of "Owner Trained Dog" with that aren't they?! Pro handled dogs in NAVHDA, doesn't that seem ironic?!

I use e-collars, they are a great long distance training tool for re-enforcing a command, trash breaking, etc... They have made it much easier to keep a dog honest on a distant point compared to some of the methods used by ol' time trialers for making a dog honest on distant points, ie. helper hiding in the grass to launch a bird when the handler was out of sight of the dog if the dog crept or tried to bust, heck I believe this method is still used for that matter. But to use an e-collar as the sole tool to train seems ridiculous! :roll:

Just my $1.00, I know I've spent more than .02 on this topic!

Friedelsheim · Post by **Friedelsheim** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:09 am

Bruce,

I couldn't disagree with you more.

It is very easy to set back and critize ff methods. The folks at that NAVHDA chapter have a vast amount of dog training experience. Many of them have trained Prize I Utility dogs, VCs, and some are NAVHDA judges.

I have force broke my dogs using the "drive to the pile method" and this is my preference. IMO, "Consistency" is the end goal when force breaking a dog. The method of FF that was discussed does not "take anything out of the dog". Trust me, there is plenty left.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:23 am

Maybe you can explain to me the benifits of "force to the pile" method. Is it speed? Is it the benifit of pushing them in the water? You might be able to answer in more detail the complete purpose of this method. In your opinion is it a method a first time dog owner should attempt, or a person not skilled in Ecollar use?

Friedelsheim · Post by **Friedelsheim** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:00 am

Brenda,

Let me begin by saying that the method is “drive to the pile” and not “burn to the pile”. This is a difference in my opinion. In the “drive to the pile” method using the collar is the last step in the force fetch. A vast amount of time is spent on hold and carry before the ear pinch even begins. The dog must accept all objects in the hold and carry before you move to the next step. After the hold and carry is completed the ear pinch will begin if the dog is not naturally opening its mouth for objects. Once the dog is accepting all objects they will begin to be driven down the table to the object with or without an ear pinch depending on the dog. Once the dog has been driven using the ear pinch a e-collar is overlaid as additional stimulation.

You asked about the benefits. Yes, speed is a main factor. Yes, it does help sending a dog across water. Yes, is does build consistent retrieves in the field and helps to eliminate dropped birds or hesitation of picking up game. Is it the fix to everything? Of course not, but it does work or at least I have had success using this method.

Would it work for a first time trainer? I think a first time trainer could get very good results driving the dog with an ear pinch. Once shown the proper techniques of “how to use the e-collar” I think they could do it.

You have been around long enough to know that any training method can be ripped apart. If you have success doing it one-way stick with it. All I’m saying is that I’ve seen this method done on many dogs and it is a proven way of FF a dog.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:03 am

Hey Donnie,

Glad you are weighing in. While I guess that I am criticizing the METHOD in question NOT THE PEOPLE, like I said very early on, it is VERY hard to argue with success! Which it seems to be, but it is a stark contrast to what Mr. Winterhelt originally has shown with "Positive Re-enforcement" in the "Old NAVHDA Green Book". There is no question that there is more experience in that group than can be easily stated, but in the same token, I was criticized because I did not use the "New NAVHDA" techniques of teaching Whoa, Heel and Come, but rather, use the "Old NAVHDA" style of training! Turn about is fair play as far as criticism goes!! I went to help out RGS out of a pinch, expecting a bunch of inexperienced handlers and planned my demo accordingly and instead found myself facing some pretty well seasoned vet's. Next thing you know, I and the other Gent were being criticized openly in front of the class. Last time I checked, NAVHDA was a Group/Family Org. Open criticism doesn't quite fit that bill either! One of the 1st things the gentleman said was: "Theres more than one way to skin a cat" and in the next sentance said: "you NEVER train any command without the Sprenger Pinch collar on the dog"! Sounds kinda like: There is only 1 WAY to skin a cat!

Now for my questions: Is a VC or Prize 1 so important that a more dog friendly method of FF cannot be used? He!!, you know as well as I do that FF alone is a touchy subject with many and this style of training is certainly not going to improve that image! Why are the numbers of Members in that Chapter dropping? From 90 Members down to something like 30?? Could this perceived image be part of the reason? Granted, it is perception, because that is all my opinion or anyones opinion is; what we/I/ they perceive from the outside view. What did we do to train a dog before E-collars? Can the dog not be taught to have enthusiasm to go to the retrieve without a burn? What about using a Flexi-lead to aid in a quick return with no chance to dally on the dogs part? Using an e-collar to train Whoa, heel or come?? Seems a bit away from the original concepts of NAVHDA.... Why is it called "Avoidance" training?

For the record; I did talk to the Pres. about trying to arrange for some training days out our way if we could get a group together. I know about a half dozen folks that are interested in some sort of training group. I just would not participate in this particuliar training method and will leave it to those who prefer it.

In all honesty, I am not trying to "set back and criticize", but am truly concerned with what this kind of thing can have as a backlash.

Lets keep it friendly and try to discuss this out or at least agree to disagree. You have direct experience with this topic and your opinion is valued.

Thanx Kindly,
Bruce

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:54 am

Yes, more than 1 way to skin a cat. I have never owned a pinch collar. (but I am definetly not oppossed to it). Many different ways work, it`s working together and keeping an open mind. My mind was completly open when I went to the seminar, and I was truely impressed with the timing and technique, but I saw a very seasoned trainer giving it that was sponsered by a Ecollar company. Same as Dobbs. I did not see any possible way the newbies attending could or should attempt training with these methods. Above all, I still like to see a dogs tail up and performing because they want to, "to please me," not because the electricity will turn off if they do it. If that is the best way for NAVHDA to get results, more power to them. In my mind, dogs are more than machines, and I see another way to get results.

Friedelsheim · Post by **Friedelsheim** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:33 pm

Bruce,

Unfortunately, I wasn’t there last Saturday to see the demonstrations. However, weather we like it or not criticism and critique are a part of training dogs especially in an open training environment. There are many ways to train and everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion when training their dogs. Is one person’s method the right way, absolutely not but to say there is going to “backlash” because of ff training method isn’t true either. The NAVHDA green book is a great foundation book. However, in my opinion some of the training methods are a little outdated.

You asked “Is a VC or Prize 1 so important that a more dog friendly method of FF cannot be used”. The reasons why we force fetch our dogs this way isn’t for a VC or Prize I. It is for consistency in retrieving in hunting situations. Most of us are hunters and expect our dogs to retrieve on a consistent basis when given the command. I’m also a little concerned on how you came up with 90 members down to 30 members. Trust me that’s inaccurate information. The chapter membership is not dropping off and it is very stable.

I would welcome training days out our way if we can find a location and as I mentioned before I will come out your way to train if you would like. Just let me know when.

Donnie

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:10 pm

I was hoping this thread would become a learning experience about different training methods but doesn't look like it's going to happen. Wish Friedelshiem, you could give us the thinking behind the method you are talking about and how and why the method is used.

I think Brenda gave some good reasons why she isn't too impressed with it but I would like to see the advantages expressed also.

In your last post you commented about criticism and critique being part of training. Thats very true, but in my mind a seminar where you are asked to conduct it isn't the place or the time for anyone to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about and then take the seminar over. That is rude and it would be the last time I would ever try to help the group out. And even as everyone has said there are more than one way and none of them are wrong if they work.

Please reconsider and explain how and why the driving method is used and how it is better than other methods. Then we can all learn something.

Ezzy

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:04 pm

OK,

So I went back and re-read the original post. What we are talking about here is overlaying the e-collar after the dog is performing well with the ear pinch. A low level continuous stimulation is applied-the dog is told fetch-dog walks across the table and the stim is released when he picks up the object. Am I right?

If that is the case, and aslong as the proper stim level is being used I see nothing wrong with it. No different than pinching the ear until the object is in the mouth. You pinch every time and release the second the object is in the mouth. The dog learns to turn of the pinch by retrieving.

I have just started "hold" with my dog so I am not an expert by any means but I though the idea behind overlaying the e-collar was to give a practical means of enforcement in the field over the ear pinch. Smartfetch considered by some to be the FF bible recommends overlaying with the e-collar.

What I do not agree with tho is the teaching of commands with the e-collar. I like to use it after to reinforce what the dog aready knows, but decides not to do.

I think the thing about this so called NEW technique is how you go about doing it, I mean two people could do it and it could look totally different, same for the ear pinch. Look at the Perfect Start video and "here" training...continuous stim until the dog turns and comes to you. Works Great on some very soft dogs. It's all about HOW you do it IMO.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:52 pm

I do not have a problem with transferring the E to what is already trained, and I know that is how it is done. I don`t care for the push to a pile. Which is transferred to water. I don`t believe this technique is for speed, as there is nothing timed in NAVHDA. I believe it is for pushing when the dog is in the water retrieve or search, as in my origional post, please correct me if I am wrong. I also saw the E used in Whoa training, stop to flush training, heel, sit, ect. This is what I do not like, for reasons of stress, like I mentioned before. This could be the reason for so many NAVHDA dogs being loose on point.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:11 pm

The gentleman stated that his 1 yr. old dog out of unnamed kennel had not been trained Whoa, Heel, Come and that it could be trained in minutes with an e-collar.(Somewhat shocking)! He further stated he was training FF and would include Steadiness as he progressed with FF. He went through the basics of Fetch; Fetch, Hold; Fetch from distance, hold; etc... overlaying the e-collar from the ear pinch; so far-so good... then he explained what was even more shocking to me...(sorry for the pun) The "NEW" way is to "DRIVE" the dog through the bumper/object/bird as the dog progress' off of the table. What he explained is, you maintain continuous stimulation until the dog reaches the bumper and then remove the stimulation when the bumper/object/bird is picked up in effect "Driving" the dog straight through the bumper/bird and back with no goofing around. Out and Back, Out and Back..... The GSP seemed eager (He!! yea, he was being shocked) and it did seem that the GSP was dead fast about performing and was taking it well, but what of softer dogs or perhaps a younger dog? It seems that everyone these days is in an all fired rush to title pups younger and younger and to He!! with being a pup!

This is what Bruce posted, and I stand by my comment.

Margaret

Friedelsheim · Post by **Friedelsheim** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:14 pm

Kevin's thread hit it on the mark. The drive in the ff method is created by holding the dog back by the collar (the dogs collar / not the e-collar) with giving the ear pinch after the command is given. The dog will begin to drive to the object to turn off the stimulation. This is first done on a training table and then to the ground. The e-collar is overlaid as the last step as part of driving the dog to the object. The dog is basically being taught that the faster I get to the object the quicker I turn off the stimulation. By driving the dog on the table or on the ground, speed is naturally created in this process which also can help with sending the dog in the water.

As far as teaching whoa, heel, etc... I'm not a fan of that either. I use the training table to teach whoa, and use a pinch collar for heel. I'm find with the e-collar being overlaid once the dog has been taught the command. I'm not sure where idea of NAVHDA dogs being loose on point has come from. The dogs I'm seeing are very stauch with tails up.

Post by **grant** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:34 pm

Cool thread. Thanks for sharing everyone...

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:38 am

This whole thread is nothing but a NAVHDA bash. What a joke.

I learned how to train birddogs with the help of MD NAVHDA members in the early 80's. There were many members and they used different types of training techniques. They didn't all FF the same and they didn't all steady the same. I was able to take what worked for me. To suggest that ALL NAVHDA members now train like this is BS. The intent of this thread is pretty obvious.

NAVHDA is a great educational resource and this thread is nothing short of irresponsible. The "New NAVHDA"? Somehow I missed that on their website.

BTW, I rarely ever use an e-collar and I don't even own one. I don't agree with avoidance training, I prefer positive reinforcement. You can learn positive reinforcement training from NAVHDA. Does positive reinforcement work? I qualified the youngest ever NAVHDA UT dog at 11 mos.

It's not NAVHDA folks it's a few isolated trainers. THEY ARE EVERYWHERE!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:51 am

Yawallac,

This thread is about a method of training that was exhibited at a Navhda seminar by a Navhda person who stated it was the new Navhda way to train dogs.

The method is being discussed and several are stating their opinion of whats wrong with it. A couple have said they have used it and like it.

Several people have stated different groups are different and it isn't a universal Navhda program. Not one, post till yours, has said the thread is a joke. So far we have all learned a great deal and several have taken a position in regards to this method of training.

To suggest that ALL NAVHDA members now train like this is BS. The intent of this thread is pretty obvious.

I believe it was a Navhda member who made that statement and not anyone on here. And I do agree the intent of the thread is obvious when you read the very first post. And we all picked up on it except you. The intent was to ask a question that was bothering an individual and get others opinion.

The thread has been educational but possibly has left some questions that each of us needs to answer about whether this is a Navhda program or just something some have picked up on. Those are legitimate questions as well as the questions and opinions of the method.

I think from your post that you to do not agree with the method and also do not think it is a universal Navhda Training program. Thanks for adding that. Please do not try to stifle other peoples opinions though through comments that question the motives of what appears to be a thread with a lot of info in it for all of us. And if it turns out Navhda is guilty of something it's good we found out and if not we have added another feather in their hat as a great training organization.

Thank you for your consideration

Ezzy

Ezzy

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:14 am

Yawallac,

You obviously did not completely read this thread. In fact I asked IS this the "New NAVHDA" way? Further I mention getting together with a NAVHDA Member here to create some Training Days towards Western Md./WV, BUT that I will not participate in the use of this particuliar training method. Not with my dogs, I think that better ways can be found to do this. This IS the New Way as described by the fella that put on the demo for the FF. A 20 year Member whom did his demo with the Chapter President present whom, as best I could tell, was in strong support of what was being said and presented.

The methods that were presented cause great concern for me, as I am afraid that many potential new members could be turned off by the methods that were demonstrated or worse ruin some good dogs due to inexperience using an e-collar to attempt the presented methods and thus, turn away from NAVHDA.

I have always been a strong advocate for NAVHDA, providing Member Applications and Rules and Aims booklets to all buyers of pups and explain to the new owners what a great training resource NAVHDA is for anyone from the novice up to the experienced trainer.

My hope is that this is not The New NAVHDA Way, but I am afraid that both you and I will be disappointed to find out that it is a lot more widespread in use than I would like to believe. I, like you, prefer the methods taught in the Green Book of positive re-inforcement, but to quote the opinion that was expressed both there and here, "The NAVHDA green book is a great foundation book. However, in my opinion some of the training methods are a little outdated." When something becomes outdated, it is replaced with something new and hopefully better. THIS IS THE NEW REPLACEMENT

Funny you mention missing this on the website, cause as soon as I got home from the seminar, the first thing I did was to check the site to see if there was a new Green Book...

Now Please, go back and read the entire thread, the intention was never to bash NAVHDA, but was more of concern with, IS this the New NAVHDA and what other ways exist to "Drive to the pile" that would be better than using the e-collar method presented.

We're all here to learn, hopefully, something better....

FWIW

Post by **pear** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:27 am

VERY WELL SAID EZZY !!!

This is an open forum, but bashing a constructive post has no merit. I'm a NAVHDA (life) member and this is new to me. However they don't consult me.... A question was ask, an answer was given, and some pros and cons discussed. I've read the posts with great interest, and have yet to see anything truely negitive, until your ( Yawallac) post. Please lets keep this thread positive, and continue to learn from each other... "pear"

A mother found her 5 yr old drinking from the toilet. She grabbed him and said, "Son, what in the world are you doing?" Wiping his mouth on his shirt sleeve, he replied, "It was Be Your Best Friend Day at school today!”

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:12 am

This thread is about a method of training that was exhibited at a Navhda seminar by a Navhda person who stated it was the new Navhda way to train dogs.

Until a training method is endorsed by National I would put little weight in a person at a seminar. Like I said, I was a member of the MD organization for a long time and the members are comprised of many different trainers. Some of whom I agreed with and some of whom I did not.

Please do not try to stifle other peoples opinions though through comments that question the motives of what appears to be a thread with a lot of info in it for all of us.

Oh, and it's ok for you? You disagree with my opinion and you are telling me what not to post? Right, I get it.

And if it turns out Navhda is guilty of something

Guilty of what??? Avoidance training?? That has been around FOREVER!!!!!!!! But a post is tossed up here and everyone starts piling on. Give me a break!

I stand by my evaluation of this thread.

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:45 am

Yawallac, Please go back and reread the intire post about the NAVHDA method. Your walking a fine line on the board right now. I'd watch my step if I were you. Bashing will not be tolerated..."pear"

I just received this PM! Perfect.

Watch this Pear.

See ya!

Yawallac · Post by **Yawallac** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:02 am

You know PM stands for "Private Message" I sent you a PM because I wanted to see this resolved privately. You do what you have to and I'll do what I have too, but I don't see this working out good for you. Probation is being discussed, is that what you really want? This is an open forum where we come to share and learn. Think about that SHARE and LEARN not bash..."pear"

I don't really wish to be part of a forum where opposing opinions are not accepted. If my statement that this thread was a joke was "bashing" then perhaps YOU should reread the thread because what was "bashed" was NAVHDA.

No need to put me on "Probation". I am gone.

Post by **pear** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:08 am

That would be your decision..... Sorry the concept of learning and sharing on an open forum doesn't suit you Mr. Callaway.

Post by **pear** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:19 am

My first inclination was to lock the thread. However I think this is an overall very positive thread. Please post on, and discuss the training method. I view this as a very important and informative discussion..."pear"

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Man alive! This thread blew up quick!

With regrets,

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:07 pm

Ezzy & Pear, though the end result wasn't exactly ideal, you handled it the best you could given the temperment you were dealing with.

I haven't gotten involved with NAVHDA yet, still learning the AKC Hunt Test game. I don't know that I will get involved with NAVHDA, but whether I do or not doesn't have a darn thing to do with this thread. Just because something is being touted as the "new NAVHDA way" to train doesn't mean I have to train that way, and that certainly wouldn't be something I would consider when thinking about becoming involved with the club. I also certainly didn't get the impression that this thread was a NAVHDA bashing thread, rather a discussion on a training method that was endorsed by a seminar guy as the "new NAVHDA way" (regardless of whether or not it actually is the new NAVHDA way).

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:11 pm

I understand how Yawallac was concerned, though I did wonder about the "bashing "he spoke of, he is concerned that people will now believe this is how dogs are trained in navhda. I have heard another has recently had the same training experience too. It would seem some extremists have gotten into navhda, but I'd imagine there are many more chapters where a more moderate and sensible form of training is encouraged.

Perhaps this extreme training method should be questioned by navhda membership at club level, and then via delegates at the AGM.

Also, In my opinion Yawallac was treated too harshly, he was obviously greatly concerned and should have a right to express his opinion. He did not personally attack anyone, which is where I draw the line, and he was to my mind defending an organisation he obviously holds in high esteem even if he did, as other writers believe, get off track on the thread.

I have read here on this site people virtually demanding their right to run down a breeder whom they state should join this site to defend herself

I've often wondered, in some of my writings, if I need to "get off my high horse" but I can see now that here it is only a pony

Marg

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:03 pm

Marg, the problem is that Yawallac was asked nicely in a private message to tone it down a bit, and explained that there was no bashing of NAVHDA going on, only criticism of a training method, to which each has their own opinion. What he did in return was to blow the thing way out of proportion and start posting private messages from the moderators, disrespecting their private nature and mocking the forum.

Also, he left on his own accord. Dealt with too harshly? I think not.

Margaret wrote:I have read here on this site people virtually demanding their right to run down a breeder whom they state should join this site to defend herself

I explained this in that very thread, did you not choose to read it? People were not "running down a breeder," they simply stated their opinions on a contract provision based upon a prospective buyer's question and public knowledge gained from that breeder's website. That breeder should not feel offended if she felt she was being fair and truthful in the description of her breedings. It was even pointed out that, irrespective of some of the claims on her website, her dogs were of good hunting pedigrees. And it was never stated that the breeder should be cut down and had to join this site to "defend" herself; those were your words only. All I stated was that if there was some misconception, she was free to post herself and clear it up. I still wish she would.

Margaret wrote:I've often wondered, in some of my writings, if I need to "get off my high horse" but I can see now that here it is only a pony

Who is this insult directed at? Everyone else on this forum?

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:40 pm

I am sorry to see YAWALLAC decide to leave, I thought he had a lot to offer this forum. From the very beginning, I also felt like NAVHDA members were being stereotyped. The way this was handled was borderline censorship. He did nothing wrong except express his thoughts and opinions from the other side of the fence. I hope the problem AHGSP encountered was an isolated incident and I know our NAVHDA chapter hasn't been informed about any new NAVHDA Training Program.

I attended a seminar by the trainer snips referred to and I never heard him say there was a "New NAVHDA Way" of training and I think he is well connected to NAVHDA. I think I did hear him mention that not all dogs are capable of the training necessary to compete at a UT1 level but they would still make fine gundogs. To me this meant that just because it doesn’t measure up to that standard means it is a washout or a rescue. I think this rule applies to most other dog venues as well where steady to wing, shot, fall and/or a retrieve is necessary. Overall I thought the seminar was worth my time. I have also attended seminars by Delmar Smith and Perfection Kennels. Not once, did any of them say theirs was the only way. You take what you want from these events and try to build on your skills to fit your style of training.

Now for the confusing part.

Whether you pinch the ear or apply a toe pinch it is still avoidance training. Complete the task to turn-off the stimulation. Dragging a dog the length of the table by the ear or toe..... seems a lot more physical to me than overlaying with the e-collar. And then, what about the longer retrieves when you transition to the ground. How many tender ears or lame dogs have you seen from using the e-collar? At least with the e-collar, the level of stimulation is adjustable and consistent. When properly done it is a valid method.

Driving to the bumper pile, probably more of a requirement for longer blind retrieves but still should be introduced at a moderate distance for all gundogs. After you progress from the table to the ground, I'm not sure how you encourage your dog out to 75' or even 150' feet to the bumper if he decides something else in between is more important. I don't think this is possible with a Flexi-Lead or positive re-enforcement, I guess your first option would be to run the dog down, grab the ear and drag him for the last 100’ or flank him and apply the toe hitch and then drag. By then, from all accounts the dog doesn’t know why the correction is being applied. There is a better way and if the dog games you play require a retrieve, then a proper FF is almost a requirement.

I'm not sure I agree on using the e-collar to facilitate the duck search. To me if the dog has a high prey drive and the FF has been done properly, then the training for this part of the Utility Test should be pretty easy. This is where the dog's mental part of the picture comes into play, they have to be convinced that when you send them for a blind retrieve, something is out there.

The rest of the story.

For NAVHDA, much of the UT test focuses on the retrieve. Not only does the dog have to retrieve to hand in three different disciplines, it's also being judged on cooperation and obedience during the retrieve. At the Invitational, which a dog must qualify for each year, a blind retrieve across water is required. Probably why NAVHDA dog trainers/owners put so much emphasis on the retrieve.

Also in NAVHDA and AKC Hunt Tests, the bird field can get a little cluttered with Judges, apprentice judges, gunners, and a handler. I have seen the need for a blind retrieve on several occasions because someone in the field blocked the dog’s view of the mark.

On the other end, how many NSTRA Champions do you think have been FF? You are leaving points on the ground for sloppy, slow, or failed retrieves and a blind retrieve here is sometimes required as well. I have seen many shotgun shells thrown trying to get a dog headed towards the downed bird.

FWIW

Coveyrise64

Post by **Ayres** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:37 pm

Coveyrise, thanks for the informative post. I think what AHGSP was surprised about, as am I, is that the dogs were stimulated with the e-collar all the way out to the retrieve and all the way back in. The e-collar was being used to enforce a drive to get the retrieve done quickly.

I used the ear-pinch method of FF, as mentioned before, so I'm not against force fetch training. I just know I couldn't have used the e-collar stimulation to get "drive" out of my dog. Justus was a little slow to retrieve at first, but since he's had the reps and the praise for doing a retrieve well, he fires out after a downed bird like nobody's business. If I had used the e-collar when he started running to the bird, what signal would that have sent? I'm sure he would have broke off the retrieve, thinking he was doing something wrong.

The whole point of avoidance training (e-collar, ear pinch, toe-hitch) is that the negative stimulation is avoided when the action is done properly. Buzzing the dog all the way through the retrieve... where is the "avoidance" part?

Richard *UT* · Post by Richard *UT* » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:32 pm

I am not a NAVHDA member and I am training with NSTRA in mind but this post has given me a lot to think over. I think I understand the method much better than when I started to read the post. Thanks for the information. Also thanks to all those who gave me more food for thought about the consequences of this method. I think some dogs could benefit from this method, again depending on the dog. Thanks again to all those willing to post.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:35 pm

Coveyrise,

Thanx kindly for an excellent explanation! That was not confusing at all. You also answered a question I had in mind earlier today to some degree, but didn't ask because of the unfortunate events. I had wondered if avoidance training was directly related to the advent of e-collars or if in fact it had been in use before the e-collar and if the earpinch or toehitch could in fact, be seen as a form of avoidance. In my mind it was, but "Avoidance" seemed to be more specific to a overall training style from what I was understanding. Part of my original question was that I felt it easy to control a snappy "return" using the flexilead, but were there other ways to get the dog "out" there faster without using this particuliar e-collar method. As of yet, it seems enthusiasm is the only force we have to get the dog to drive out there fast without using this method. For a softer dog, this would be a very critical decision in my mind and I don't think would be advisable at all, leaving enthusiasm as the only tool. I am still not sure I am comfortable with it, especially in new hands, but I do have a better understanding.

Ayres,

You pretty well nailed part of my concerns. Driving the dog in the water also did not seem correct. I want the dog to trust me to go out and search, not be afraid of a "hot bank". I was also very concerned with using the e-collar to train Whoa, Come, Heel, etc... solely, rather than doing lead work without stimulation and reserving the stimulation for when a dog broke a command it well knew from lead work.

For the record, my intention was never to bash NAVHDA, but to show the great concern I had with what I believed was explained as the "New NAVHDA" and what I saw as a stark contrast to the Green Book. For other NAVHDA Members I may have offended or made feel as though I were attacking them or the Organization, I Sincerely Apologize, It was never my intention.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:02 am

I know you never meant to bash NAVHDA Bruce.

You brought up something that concerned you a lot, and I personally believe this type of training is of concern. And I would hope that NAVHDA would find it concerning too.

Dog training seems to be taking a rather nasty tack, I thought we could advance from the dark ages, but I keep reading methods described as modern and advanced - but they are not far off cruelty IMO (and I am no bunny hugger

)

Ayres, I did read your reply re the breeder and it did not sit well.
All I can say is "why should they?" I suspect what they think could be conveyed in two short words.

Marg

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:56 am

I think this discussion went down hill when the terms “burn to the pile” and “heating the bank” were introduced. Not blaming anyone, but that was the way it seemed. Everyone assumed a high level of stimulation, unless things have changed that is not the way the techique was presented to me. I am by no means an expert but have used the “drive to the pile” method for FF. I started by using the ear pinch and then overlaying the e-collar with light stimulation. The way it was demonstrated to me was “drive to the pile” and the only time stimulation was used on the “delivery” was when the dog veered off course (again the same presenter that snips observed).

I have no experience with "heating the bank". I do believe that it could be used successfully for dogs that have been properly introduced to the duck search and by the right person. By that I mean, showing the dog a duck by using a helper, then weaning the dog off of that to a planted duck with out the dog seeing the helper. Dogs will use the sight of a helper as a crutch. When sent for the retrieve, they might balk if a helper is not visible. Short of using a boat to drag or coax the dog across the water, I think people started using the e-collar. After all, the dog responded to being driven to the pile and understood that scenario. Again, the right time, right dog, and the right person. I normally use multiple ducks and will resend my dog several times. I think this helps extend the search and the probability of having to resend in the UT Test is very likely. Only there is no blank shot fired on the resend. Fortunately I haven’t had a need to “heat the bank”.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the retrieve for the NAVHDA UT Test is very demanding and to successfully pass the entire test takes a special dog. I don’t know of any other arena where the dog has to point and hold one species of bird, be steady to wing, shot, fall, and then on the same day be required to be steady by the blind, retrieve a duck, search 10 minutes for a duck (retrieve if found and possibly be resent), and then retrieve a duck drag in cover for 100yds. Hopefully you now understand why NAVHDA people are somewhat sensitive about their dogs and training.

The e-collar is a very useful tool for me as I train by myself a lot. When employing something new or the dog is not responding to the drill at hand I always try to educate myself by contacting someone more knowledgeable. It’s also reassuring to get that second opinion and I appreciate the help snips has offered on steadiness.

Again FWIW

Coveyrise64