Force Fetch... "Driving" the dog through the birds

[Ayres]

Ayres, I did read your reply re the breeder and it did not sit well.

I'm sorry to hear that, I thought I explained it very clearly. Your comment about your high horse being a pony compared to everyone else on the forum didn't sit well with me either, though, so I guess we're even.

All I can say is "why should they?" I suspect what they think could be conveyed in two short words.

Why should she? Because if she was offended at something, she surely didn't clarify what it was. I, for one, certainly didn't bash her, and the whole topic centered around a) the provisions of her contract and b) publicly displayed commentary on her website. If she thought either was taken out of context then she absolutely should set the record straight, and she'd be rightful in doing so. But what she did do was to criticize GSPaddict and say that she was offended and nothing more. A breeder that requires a contract ought to stand behind it; and one that puts commentary on her website shouldn't be offended by it because it's her own commentary. What she did was make a prospective first-time puppy buyer feel like he did something wrong when he was in the right for asking questions.

Now, if we can get back on topic here,

I didn't mean to sound like the stimulate-through-the-retrieve method would never work. I know very well how different dogs call for different methods. My words above are only cautionary in nature because I believe that this method would not work very well at all on a softer dog, and may end up ruining it if continually done incorrectly. It's a hard method to apply because the trainer really has to be able to read the dog and know when it either knows what it's supposed to do and just doesn't, or when it is just totally confused about what you really want it to do. Also, the stimulation must be given the same way every time. A few seconds early or late could mess things up.

Also, if a dog is on woah (point) and has not been released to go retrieve (steady to wing, shot and fall -- master hunter level stuff) then how do you correct it for going after a downed bird before it's released? Hitting the e-collar after using that method would only drive it to complete the retrieve rather than remember that it is supposed to be holding on woah. If you let the dog retrieve the bird without correcting it at all, though, it may begin to release itself upon the fall or eventually upon the gunfire. Any ideas for when a situation like this comes up? I'm at a loss, other than to try to utilize other correction methods like yelling, a page function, a checkcord, etc.

[larue]

I have a question,what ever happened to breeding,testing,and produceing dogs that have enough drive to do the things we ask of them in a ut test?
The use of an e-collar to make a dog who either lacks independance,or has had it taken away from it,is a way to prize a dog that lacks a quality required for a prize I.
The use of the hot bank,or drive them to a pile,are advanced retriever field trial tools,where a dog cannot use its own thoughts but it must be a robot,never leaving a line,unless told to do it.
We are in danger of produceing dogs with little natural abilities
as the training techniques are becoming so advanced that the test scores are worthless as it comes to breeding good dogs.
We are produceing generations of dogs who can handle great pressure,yet who have to be taught to point,forced to leave our sight,dogs who lack natural abilities.
The fix to this is simple,JUDGE the dogs,the forced dogs are easy to pick out,do not give these dogs a prize 1,or a vc,and the trainers will change there methods,plain and simple.

[ezzy333]

Larue,

I agree with what you are saying. Being human we seem to always have to dream up some new contest and then figure someway to do it better, not only in dogs but in most everything we do. This isn't all bad till we lose sight of what the original purpose really was. In the case of bird dogs we were breeding and training hunting dogs. That was it.

I have been afraid for years that we were losing tract of the purpose and starting to breed and train for a sport we have dreamed up. And now we have taken it a step further and are making the training a sport. Because of our different sports we are now losing the dogs we had bred over the years and replacing them with something that just might train better. Conformation has suffered for years and now I think you see the attitude and appitude of the dogs changing also.

My fear is that we will forget completely who and what our base really is. Evidence is abound with the breeder picking the homes that will use his pups in the manner he wants them used, and contracts that make you more of a renter of the pup rather than the owner. And we all use the excuse that it is for the good of the pup. I will come right out and say it is not. It is for the good of the breeders reputation with his fellow breeders.

If I'm wrong then why are many dogs being advertised as hunt test dogs, a man made sport, or field trail dogs, a man made sport, or show dogs, another man made sport. What happened to hunting dog and pet?

Sorry for the diatribe, but this is something that has bothered me as I've seen it develop over the past 40 years. It did then and does more today. We have had people upset and some leave over a percieved insult to a TRAINING group over TRAINING METHODS. We have people training their dogs constantly to compete in some artificial arena instead of maybe just enjoying them as much as we should. I am not saying the training is wrong as long as it is a way to get to a goal but sometimes it seems the goal is training itself and we think we have to do it younger and faster and better than anyone else. That means new methods and new equipment to use or we just aren't hip.

Take your time people. The dogs deserve a life also. Make training an enjoyable experience for both of you and you will be happier and so will the dog as you develop a comaraderie between the two of you as you proceed towards your goal. and the rest will be fun and games as you both advance a respect for each other in the fields with the birds sitting tight in front of a dog that is steady as a rock inspite of the fact you still can't hit a "bleep" thing with that brand new gun that was supposed to be so much better than your old one that missed alot too.

Ezzy

[Margaret]

about your high horse being a pony compared to everyone else on the forum

This is my last word on this subject. Ayres I really think you need to be careful with your quotes as I did not say what you write above.
If my post really needs clarifying, I was speaking only of a few comments concerning Yawallac.

Thank you.
Margaret

[Margaret]

Larue and Ezzy, very good posts.

Very sound thoughts.

Thanks
Marg

[Ayres]

This is my last word on this subject. Ayres I really think you need to be careful with your quotes as I did not say what you write above.
If my post really needs clarifying, I was speaking only of a few comments concerning Yawallac.

Here's what was said, word for word:

I've often wondered, in some of my writings, if I need to "get off my high horse" but I can see now that here it is only a pony

Who is this insult directed at? Everyone else on this forum?

You never answered my question, and the way you said "I can see now that here it is only a pony" leads me to the conclusion that "here" is the "Gun Dog Forum."

And, yes, now, thank you for the clarification. The way in which you originally were talking about a whole other thread (puppy rights topic), then threw in that last line about the pony, I, for one, had no idea who you were talking about or what situation.

I would ask that you kindly refrain from insulting anyone, though, even if you do tend to disagree. And yes, saying that someone is on their high horse can be perceived as insulting. There are plenty ways of expressing your opinion without cutting someone else down personally.

[Margaret]

Steven, I suggest you take a nice relaxing walk with your dogs in the fresh air.


Marg

[AHGSP]

Just got in from a Hunt Test, it's 1:30 a.m. and I got to get back up at 4:00 a.m. so I'm going to be quick, but I needed to clarify a few things and will try to get back and explain more tomorrow eve.

I got to speak with the Gentleman and the President of the Chapter today while at the Hunt Test. They explained that this is a new way for this individual trainer not the whole chapter or organization and that this was just something that was working for this particuliar individual. Again, I believe he is very advanced in his level of ability as a trainer and thus it works well for him. It has been taken from the Retriever world as mentioned and has been in use there for some time.

While I still would have asked questions here as to the overall method to try and understand better, I feel I could have helped to avoid a lot of negativity if I would have taken time to speak to this Gent at the seminar that day and asked more questions of him when the opportunity was presented. It just took some time for me to absorb what I thought I understood. Showing what is the great spirit within NAVHDA, these Gentleman took time to explain to me what exactly I had misunderstood and further, to invite me to come down and train a day with them and they in turn would make the opportunities for training days out towards Friedelsheim and I's way with other interested folks. I can't help but feel responsible for Yallawac becoming offended and leaving now and for that, I owe not only him, but all of NAVHDA a very large apology as well as this entire BB.

I don't believe I can say enough how much I Apologize for all of this. This truly was started to try and understand something I was not grasping and did not fully understand. I'm dead tired and will leave it with that.

Again, my Sincerest Apologies to All

[Ayres]

Steven, I suggest you take a nice relaxing walk with your dogs in the fresh air.

I do every day. Thanks.