Should I just restart his training?

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drake handler
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Should I just restart his training?

Post by drake handler » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:03 pm

Ok. I have a 8 month old black lab. He was fetching pefectly at 5 months. Then he just decided to stop doing anything I would tell him to do. I got on here and asked what I should do. I was told to take it slow and only do a couple fetches a day and work on sit, come ect. I did that for a while but now he won't get the bumper any more. He will run up to it pick it up and try to run away with it I tell him no and then he wont even pick it up. He will go up to it smell it and walk back. I have no idea what to do start force fetch or restart his fetch training? If you can hellp at alll please do I would really apriciate it.
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Tall Boy
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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by Tall Boy » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:13 pm

Sounds like he's bored, and maybe you over corrected him for running away with it. Remember that raining is suppose to be fun, and positive. Put a cc on him until he's retrieving to hand again, you cannot allow bad reps to happen if at all possible. Lay him up for a few days and he'll probably start picking them up again, if not then try to liven up the training sessions to get him interested again.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by fishvik » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:54 am

Tall Boy wrote:Sounds like he's bored, and maybe you over corrected him for running away with it.
I agree with Tall Boy. Try to spice up the game by attaching a wing to the dummy and keep him on a cc. Really tease him with the dummy before you toss it. Quit the drill during each training session when he is doing it well and before he starts to get bored. That way he'll still be fired up for the drill at the next training session.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by birddog1220 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:02 am

try going to your breader or a pro trainer cause its time for ff. for him

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by drake handler » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:32 am

Ok thanks
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brad27
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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by brad27 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:26 am

try going to your breader or a pro trainer cause its time for ff. for him
Ok. I have a 8 month old black lab.
you're suggesting FF an 8 month old puppy?

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by NC Quailhunter » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:48 am

I agree with putting him back on a check cord and make it fun for him. If he tries to go the opposite way with the bumper give him a tug on the cord and give him whatever command you use for him to fetch and have him bring it to you and then shower him with praise. I wouldn't be telling him no unless you really want him to leave it alone. he is getting confused and probably believes that picking up the bumper is not what he is to do. make it fun and vary the routine and keep him on a cord.
I wouldn't FF an eight month old PUPPY.
That is how I would do it with a puppy.
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crackerd
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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by crackerd » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:52 pm

brad27 wrote:
try going to your breader or a pro trainer cause its time for ff. for him
Ok. I have a 8 month old black lab.
you're suggesting FF an 8 month old puppy?
If the poster has aptitude for force fetching, or is using a pro to impart FF, there's no more opportune time. Even that's a late date for when most retrievers are forced.

As for "restarting his training," such as? Are you restarting his eyes for marking, his desire for retrieving, or his tractability for working afield? Might want to restart your own learning about training a retriever - and get counsel from somebody who's worked with a few hundred give or take.

And a checkcord doesn't it make it fun :roll: for a dog by any stretch of the imagination...especially a dog that ain't exactly a house afire to begin with. (Or has had the fire banked by what "training" has gone into it.)

The dog's on the brink, even at 8 mos. old, of its having trained you not to expect it to retrieve - best get thee to a trainer, a real trainer, and a real retriever trainer at that.

MG

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by Tall Boy » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:22 pm

I wouldn't put the pressure of FF on him until you build some fire in him. The cc isn't the fun part, it's the don't keep letting the pup make mistakes part. Put some wings on the dummy and tease him with it then toss it a few feet, let him come back on his own, if he will, then praise the heck out of him. Good Luck

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by birddog1220 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:45 am

i wouldnt be so quick to jump on board with the its too early thing. my dogs have been started that young and no problem. along with ff. you can sharpen the other things like heal,woah ff. isnt as brutal as it sounds. just ounce you start stay with it hopefuly 2 times a day, could take 4-8 weeks depending on your ability and the dog. good luck with your training

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:25 am

Your question is should I just restart his training. I think the point here is you have not been training you have been playing. When you play fetch with the dog on the dogs terms you are going to get what the dog wants. Every time the dog does not retrieve quickly and directly to hand you have given the dog a repetition of what you do not want. Never put yourself in a position to command something you can not correct. Just because the dog gives you a behavior does not mean he associates the words you are using with the behavior. If you correct the dog for an unknown command the dog will become apprehensive. Forced retrieve creates a mechanism that allows you to correct the dog on each step of the eventual completion of the task. When you are training a dog to retrieve, in your mind if the dog does it once he understands it. The dog will bring it back to you but he does not grasp all of the nuances of what you expect. If you break it down the dog has to leave your side, go to the item, get the item, hold the item without mouthing or dropping, recall to you, only let it go on command. This is a lot to expect from an animal with a brain the size of a lemon. As far as age a lot of retriever people will force retrieve their dogs as soon as the baby teeth are gone. http://www.georgehickox.com/ Georges video has a good easy to follow force retrieve on it.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:30 am

Tall Boy wrote:I wouldn't put the pressure of FF on him until you build some fire in him. The cc isn't the fun part, it's the don't keep letting the pup make mistakes part. Put some wings on the dummy and tease him with it then toss it a few feet, let him come back on his own, if he will, then praise the heck out of him. Good Luck
Just curious what if the dog does not come back with it. Never let the dog fail it is a repetition in what you do not want.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by Tall Boy » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:22 pm

4dabirds wrote:
Tall Boy wrote:I wouldn't put the pressure of FF on him until you build some fire in him. The cc isn't the fun part, it's the don't keep letting the pup make mistakes part. Put some wings on the dummy and tease him with it then toss it a few feet, let him come back on his own, if he will, then praise the heck out of him. Good Luck
Just curious what if the dog does not come back with it. Never let the dog fail it is a repetition in what you do not want.
Then you give a light pop with the cc to get him moving. The key to training is to allow it to be organic, you have to let the dog make the mistake and then correct it. If you are always dictating to the dog what to do then he never learns his limits. Training is "don't do that, do this"..

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by 4dabirds » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:10 am

Tall Boy wrote:
4dabirds wrote:
Tall Boy wrote:I wouldn't put the pressure of FF on him until you build some fire in him. The cc isn't the fun part, it's the don't keep letting the pup make mistakes part. Put some wings on the dummy and tease him with it then toss it a few feet, let him come back on his own, if he will, then praise the heck out of him. Good Luck
Just curious what if the dog does not come back with it. Never let the dog fail it is a repetition in what you do not want.
Then you give a light pop with the cc to get him moving. The key to training is to allow it to be organic, you have to let the dog make the mistake and then correct it. If you are always dictating to the dog what to do then he never learns his limits. Training is "don't do that, do this"..
If you set up your training so the dog can not make a mistake it never has the chance to have a repetition of something you do not want. In this case the dog has been allowed to make mistakes and those mistakes have become trained into the dog. Now your saying to correct the dog on a behavior you have not trained the dog to do.You have left it up to chance that the dog will actually retrieve and hold the object with no plan if he does not. If the dog drops or mouths the object thats one more repetition of the wrong thing. Will you correct everything the dog does wrong in the sequence. If you want to train retrieve it needs to be done properly from the beginning by not accepting any flaws in the process. This dog should be forced retrieved to break it down into a sequence the dog can understand.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by Tall Boy » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:25 pm

Yes you are correct. The drill I am speaking of is a baby step "toss the dummy a few feet" "put some feathers on it". The point of the drill is to get a good rep from a dog that should naturally be able, and willing to do the drill. The dog needs to see again that retrieving is fun, and he needs confidence. Yes, step by step is a great way to build confidence, I totally agree with you there. I personally strive to break the process down into as many steps as I can. But we're talking about a young RETRIEVER...toss the dummy let him pick it up and tell him he's the best "bleep" dog there ever was, repeat.... I would rather go to FF with a dog who likes picking up dummies, not one who's unsure.

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:51 am

With a Lab, you follow a very specific training program. Evan Graham has a good one and so does Fowl Dawgs. If the dog were properly trained, he would not pick up the bumper and shake it, he'd pick it up, spin, and return to you. I think the problem is that NO part of the dog's training is thoroughly and properly done.

First, comes the obedience. Only when he is rock solid on all aspects of obedience do you begin the force fetch.

Once you begin the FF, you get him in and get him out or he may quit retrieving completely. That's what you are seeing now. You can't nit-pick at a dog, you have to "get er' done". It is not uncommon for a dog to stop retrieving during ff. I used to try and keep them going for happy bumpers, but if they didn't, I didn't care; I simply quit until the ff was over. Always remember that every time a dog refuses you, he wins and you lose. That includes going for, and bringing back, a happy bumper.

It would be good if you could join a retriever club near you so members could see the dog and give you a hand.
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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by crackerd » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:44 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Always remember that every time a dog refuses you, he wins and you lose. That includes going for, and bringing back, a happy bumper.
Happy bumpers have no place as GH said at this stage of training - everything should be desire and natural ability. Basic retrieving falls under both headings. The dog oughtn't have anything to be unhappy about at 8 mos. and having been hand-thrown simple single marks. Again, that's basic retrieving and all down to desire and natural ability - remember, their very name as a breed has "retriever" in it, and that ain't for no reason.

Force fetch is not going to put desire into the dog (certainly not put it back into the dog) but it can bring out the best in natural ability. The problem is the won-loss column, apropos GH's words to train by above, is getting more one-sided with every refusual. How you keep the dog happy and compliant is what you have to discover for yourself while following a program as GH recommended. With a happy, compliant retriever, they come back (with the bird of course) as enthusiastically and h*ll-bent as they went when sent for the retrieve - for some of them that applies even for returning

Image

with blind retrieves. And therein lies the secret of retriever training - making the retriever work (at which they are magnificent animals trained like no other gundogs) while thinking it's having playtime.

MG

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Re: Should I just restart his training?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:35 pm

Cool picture M.G.!!! :D
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