Pointing lab running out and ranging too far.

[Brad6260]

Well the pup that three months ago I was worried would not get out enough has found his stride and lot of enthusiasm for the field. He's about 5 months old now. Great nose, retrieving traits and pointing very well for his age..
Ironically my issue is keeping him in range. He generally checks in well with me and responds well to most commands. Not much in the way of natural quartering going on. When he gets hot on a bird or a bird flushes near or far he's gone. Runs the countryside like a runaway pointer and not responding to me at all.

Any suggestions for ranging him in and teaching him to hunt under control?

Thanks.

[Winchey]

You don't have a problem, you have a 5 month old puppy that is not steady to flush. Sounds like things are fine to me.

[Brad6260]

Winch,
I hope I did not give the impression that I am displeased with the pup. He's doin great and very likely smarter than I am.
My issue is that he's running out 100 yards or more then usually holds a nice point for ten to 15 seconds which I am delighted with but then flushes it with me still charging up. So my issue is both losing touch with the dog but also what lessons can get him reeled back in hunting as a close working dog.

[gonehuntin']

Winch,
I hope I did not give the impression that I am displeased with the pup. He's doin great and very likely smarter than I am.
My issue is that he's running out 100 yards or more then usually holds a nice point for ten to 15 seconds which I am delighted with but then flushes it with me still charging up. So my issue is both losing touch with the dog but also what lessons can get him reeled back in hunting as a close working dog.

He's a pointing dog, he's not supposed to be close. He's doing great, the problem isn't his range, it's that he isn't holding point. You cure that in the yard with traps. Come down on him too hard and take that range out of him, and you may have a hard time getting it back.

When you start obedience training him, which should be at about six months, you'll take care of the range problem and him coming when called.

[GrayDawg]

You don't have a problem, you have a 5 month old puppy that is not steady to flush. Sounds like things are fine to me.

+1 If you didn't want a big running dog, but you wanted one that could point & retrieve................. there may have been more practical options than a pointing lab. But that decision is behind you now.

Try running him/her with a 20' check cord- it'll act as a governor sort to speak. Also- the dog is 5 months old. don't place it in situations where their lack of training (perfectly understandable at this age) will/could place them in harms way (i.e., the road)

Good luck,

Rob

[slistoe]

You got a dog that loves his birds, has the physical ability to hunt and a decent inclination to point. And you think you have to "fix" the dog at 5 mos. old? Go figure.

[Brad6260]

Nice to know that this is a place or so I thought where those less experienced can ask a question or express a concern and hope to get insight and not insults.

[Winchey]

Wasn't trying to insult you. You look to be in good shape. If you have a "pointing lab" and want to use it as a pointer then don't worry so much about range. If you are going to use it as a flusher than you should train a little differently. I would say you should start gun breaking rather than steadying at this point if the dog is showing lots of enthusiasm for birds. Take it slow, let him get out there and point and chase birds he can't catch. You could do a little bit of checkcord work but go easy and slow on him he's just a pup. I would be more worried about a 5 month old puppy if it would rather listen to me than chase birds.

[ezzy333]

None of the posts were insults but were tryting to say that your only problem is the pup is a pup and is doing what pups are supposed to do. If you can'taccept that then do what was suggested and make the pup drag a CC. I think the other thing that came through to me is that if you start trying to change the pup too much you are going to create other problems that will be considerbly worse. Sounds to me like you didn't listen to those and only wanted someone to tell you how to make the pup act like a 5 year old dog and the way to do that is to train your pup, give it more experience, and also give it time to learn. Work on holding point and general obedience and nature and time will do the rest for you

This is what I read in the posts, tell us what you read that you felt was insulting?

Ezzy

[nikegundog]

I don't think you are going to find anyone on this forum that has any experience in training pointing labs. I have heard that you need to work on establishing their point when their young, how young I don't know. I would call some trainers that work with pointing labs and get their advice. I don't think that the timeline you would train most pointers might apply in training your dog. There is an association for pointing labs that does the testing for them, that's where I would start. If I recall right, their requirement for testing use to be a 5 second point, it sounds like your dog may be way ahead of the game. If it were any other dog I agree with the people that said he's still a pup and they are probably right.

[Mike50]

First off he's 5 months old. Second it's not a range thing but a recall issue as I read it.
I had the same thing happen last week with a 8 month old GSP chasing a meadow lark. It was my fault for thinking because his recall in the yard was so good. That I could call him off the chase in the field. He was have the time of his life chasing that lark and I let him for a while. Then when I tried to call him off and he blew me off I knew it was my fault. We're now working on the recall in the field.
If you ever hunt with a flusher guy and he ask. Where's your pointer just smile and say he's hunting.
I also know nothing about training dogs.

[Winchey]

I think a lot of new dog trainers need to expect a little less of their pups while they are pups. You can't expect full compliance out of a puppy, heck you can't even really expect it out of a fully trained dog 100% of the time. There will always be times the dog just gives you the finger, that's what the collars are for once you have done the appropriate steps to get to the point of using one. That being said you need to take your dogs to a place where if he decides to blow you off for 5, 10, 20 minutes or more that it is safe and you don't have to worry about him getting hit by a car. Everyone who hunts with a dog takes on a certain risk in partaking in that activity because dogs can't hunt on a leash. However you can minimize those risks until you have a finished product.

[Gordon Guy]

IMO....Now that you know that your pup has what it takes to make a bird dog I'd consider taking pup off of birds for a while. Run him in areas where you don't have birds. Let him grow and eventually teach him to whoa. (the timing for this is up to you and your dog, maturity dictating) Using a table or bench, teach him to whoa with no temptations. Than setting him up in situations that tempt him to break with a ball and or a stick. Move him to the ground and re-teach him what he learned on the table. Once he learns whoa (On the ground) Go back to the table. Up the anti to dead birds, than live birds being released far away to birds being released close up, to birds walking around him. Then when he finally knows what whoa means, put him back on birds in a controlled environment /situation (Checkcorded into birds in remote launchers). Showing him what you want him to do, before you allow him to run free without control. And now if he breaks in on birds your dogs knows what you want him to do and when you correct him he'll know why. What you teach here will / can translate into control after the flush if you pursue it. my $0.02

[birddog1968]

Nike is wrong again

Have you purchased Julie Knutsons book yet?
http://www.gunclub-labs.com/

Do so if you haven't and follow it to a T. Maybe even give the Knutsons a ring.

[nikegundog]

Nike is wrong again

What am I wrong about? Is it that I told him to seek advice from a pointing dog association website?

[birddog1968]

Nike is wrong again

What am I wrong about? Is it that I told him to seek advice from a pointing dog association website?

First off im messin with ya......

But there are folks here experienced with training a "PL"

[helpful_cub]

Your puppy is coming along great and your doing really well by him by letting him find real birds. I part of the confusion comes from what people generally expect from a pointer versus a flusher. Flushers work fairly close so you can be within shotgun range when they flush the bird. Pointers on the other hand run big... They don't scare the birds away so you have time to get in position for the shot. If fact your the one that usually flushes making for a much closer shot.

So back to your puppy holding point. I've found with my dog that by using "stay" drills at home in the evening that slowly over weeks you can build up on long it will stay there. For a puppy it will be a really short amount of time, you'll be measuring victory be individual seconds each day.

Another thing to try is using launchers as suggested earlier or wild birds. I've found a field full of wild Woodcock and I let my dog run crazy until he realizes that there is no way he's going to catch that bird without pointing and me killing it for him. Once all of this comes together you should be set.

[Brad6260]

Thanks for the good input.

FYI- I received a couple of low class PM's from site members that prompted my reply above.
I do realize they are thankfully in the minority.

[Chukar12]

Hello Brad,
It is approximately 1,111,258,364,597.50 times per day that communication is misunderstood. If the delivery were only internet forums you could multiply that numerous times. I am working with a pointing lab from one of the top breeders in the country and I find it frustrating as well. In addition, this dog has been in the hands of a pretty darn good pro that chimes in here once in awhile. The dog I speak of has all the desire in the world and two seasons of extensive wild bird exposure, it pointed naturally as a puppy. I have seen numerous limits of wild chukars killed over her and you can keep her honest if your finger is on the button. However, she ain't crazy about it. My point is that I refuse to participate in an argument about PL legitimacy in the pointing dog realm. The dogs have plusses and minuses and people should enjoy them as they wish.

However, you have two problems in my opinion. This puppy is too young for you to worry about rushing out and shooting birds over at 5 months. If you pressure it on birds while you are trying to hunt you will create problems. The second is that you are battling genetics and that makes the job for us amateurs even more difficult. I suppose on a personal note that you also need to come to grips with the thought that a pointing dogs range is not a gun range such as it is with a flushing dog. Some of the gents were saying that in their own way. I would choose a training method and take Gordon Guy's advice and pull the dog off birds. Start yard training now, you are close enough in age to work on obedience and labs are smart in general so you can accomplish a lot. Pick an established method, any one...Hickox, Perfection, Smith and stick with it. Otherwise you are leaving many things to chance, by guess and by gosh...many dogs arent what they could be in this manner and it doesn't have to be.