Shooting birds on the ground to fix flagging?

[phermes1]

I heard this approach for the first time this weekend - anyone have any thoughts/experience with it? I didn't hear many details other than having the dog on point, and, well - shooting birds on the ground in front of them.

It's one of the few suggestions I've heard to fix flagging that didn't involve wild birds or just hoping the dog works it out on its own. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on it.

[Brittguy]

I was told this by a dog trainer from CA. I have done it and it works.

[RayGubernat]

This was called " the exploding quail trick" by a trainer I know. You can figure out the reason why.

Like most other "tricks" ...it will work...for a while.

Just be careful of stray pellets and riccochets. At that close range a riccocheting #8 can do damage.

RayG

[phermes1]

Thanks. I don't get it. Is there really nothing more to it other than blowing the bejesus out of a bird while a dog is pointing it? What's the goal, to shock the dog into not flagging?

[ultracarry]

I'm still trying to figure it out. Soo the dog is flagging and you shoot over it or do you stand in front? The dog relates flagging with a destroyed bird on the ground?

[Fair Fields]

I have heard this as well from a great dog trainer...

[snips]

I have heard of it...Give it a go and report back....

[RayGubernat]

BTW -

A sidearm delivery across the front of the flagging dog of a handful of pebbles can also have the effect of tightening up a flagging or creeping dog.

I ain't no dog psychologist but it seems to me that the flagger or creeper has mayhem on its mind. The flagging is, I believe, the physical evidence of the dog's intent which is to dive in and grab that bird. Creeping isa similar thing, I think.

The pebbles or the shock of the cloud of bird feathers going everywhere probably breaks that train of thought and startles the dog into not moving because that would cause the bird to flush.

Sounds good anyway.

Honestly, I have no way of knowing if that is what is really going through the dog's mind. All I know is that it can work to tighten a dog up. just be careful with shooting on the ground that close to a dog.

Blasting a bird that has been properly conditioned to the gun, and seen its share of birds killed, should not be a problem. However, a young dog that hasn't figured it all out yet might be made gunshy by this kind of tactic. I'd try the pebbles first.

RayG

[Chukar12]

I tried it with a GSP a friend asked me to work with a month or so ago. The dog is two and was broke but would flag generally tightening up just before the flush. I had heard about this and decided to try it, I would plant birds and randomly I would stop at 90 degrees out 20 or 30 yards away and with the bird safely in front simply shoot it right on the ground. At other times and more frequently I would walk in and flush the bird and blank it off. The flagging stopped completely on the second session. Why I dont know and Ray has me nervous saying it will probably fix it for awhile. Frankly, I believe the cause was too many liberated birds, pigeons in launchers etc... and the dog was bored.

[Dave Quindt]

I tried it with a GSP a friend asked me to work with a month or so ago. The dog is two and was broke but would flag generally tightening up just before the flush. I had heard about this and decided to try it, I would plant birds and randomly I would stop at 90 degrees out 20 or 30 yards away and with the bird safely in front simply shoot it right on the ground. At other times and more frequently I would walk in and flush the bird and blank it off. The flagging stopped completely on the second session.

Were these birds that the dog was scent pointing or sight pointing? If the dog is scent pointing the bird and can't see it, how does he know that you are shooting the bird and not just shooting the gun? Did you send the dog for the retrieve?

Frankly, I believe the cause was too many liberated birds, pigeons in launchers etc... and the dog was bored.

Having been around enough dogs that point birds with the same style and intensity regardless of pen raised or launchers or wild birds that I struggle with the idea that they are "bored". To me, it's either a problem with training, breeding or both. The dogs that I've been around that pointing every bird pretty much the same without a doubt were the ones that had the most natural point.

FWIW,
Dave

[Chukar12]

Dave,

Always scent pointing, and though the dog retrieves never sent for the retrieve in the excercise, bird was carried back and dropped, I let him carry the bird at heel a bit and sent him on. I don't know that the dog knew what was being done, but a shotgun blast hitting the ground makes a quick and rather combustable commotion, brush, snow or dust will fly and it darned sure held the dog's attention.

I would submit your experience as a trainer and trialer is greater than mine. I cannot speak for the dogs training I didnt witness most of it. I am not a GSP guy but I do know the breeder via trialing that the dog came from and I am confident that it is not a breeding issue. However, on many occasions I have seen a difference in intensity on wild covey birds and throwdowns or lauch birds in particular ... again, that may be training and an argument I would not take up.

Joe

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Phermes,
This happens to be one of the oldest German training tricks, was taught this trick when I 1st started to learn how to train gun dogs in the 60's, 90% of the time it does work, the reasons why really don't matter. If you are going to use this trick use a light .410 training gun.
RGD/Dave

[Maurice]

I heard this approach for the first time this weekend - anyone have any thoughts/experience with it? I didn't hear many details other than having the dog on point, and, well - shooting birds on the ground in front of them.

It's one of the few suggestions I've heard to fix flagging that didn't involve wild birds or just hoping the dog works it out on its own. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on it.

It depends on why the dog is flagging, some dogs flag because they ain't bought in to being broke,. They know from training they are suppose to stand there but the tail flags because they are still wanting to knock the bird. If they are flagging for this reason shooting birds on the ground will not help a bit. If they are flagging because they have been over worked on pen birds then shooting a bird on the ground can cure the problem completely if you don't go back and over work them on pen birds. I have used it in the past to cure dogs that were flagging from to much work. The bird should be planted in light cover so the dog can see the blast happen. I use a 12 ga at close range, standing maybe 15 ft to the side of the dog. When you smoke a bird like this there will not be much left of the bird. The session is over after this is done. Next day let the dog point 1 bird, I bet money the dog won't flag because the last bird that he pointed turned to smoke. The dog is back to being intense because he don't know what the bird is going to do. You have put a unknown element in to the picture by shoot the bird on the ground. It works if you know why the dog is flagging.

Mo

[kninebirddog]

I heard this approach for the first time this weekend - anyone have any thoughts/experience with it? I didn't hear many details other than having the dog on point, and, well - shooting birds on the ground in front of them.

It's one of the few suggestions I've heard to fix flagging that didn't involve wild birds or just hoping the dog works it out on its own. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on it.

It depends on why the dog is flagging, some dogs flag because they ain't bought in to being broke,. They know from training they are suppose to stand there but the tail flags because they are still wanting to knock the bird. If they are flagging for this reason shooting birds on the ground will not help a bit. If they are flagging because they have been over worked on pen birds then shooting a bird on the ground can cure the problem completely if you don't go back and over work them on pen birds. I have used it in the past to cure dogs that were flagging from to much work. The bird should be planted in light cover so the dog can see the blast happen. I use a 12 ga at close range, standing maybe 15 ft to the side of the dog. When you smoke a bird like this there will not be much left of the bird. The session is over after this is done. Next day let the dog point 1 bird, I bet money the dog won't flag because the last bird that he pointed turned to smoke. The dog is back to being intense because he don't know what the bird is going to do. You have put a unknown element in to the picture by shoot the bird on the ground. It works if you know why the dog is flagging.

Mo

This is how the bird shot was also explained to me...I have yet to be able to try it on a clients dog who comes to train with us...but I finally got some shooter pigeons in so plans are to try that this weekend ..I refuse to shoot my homers

[phermes1]

OK, thanks all. Your comments are helpful. Might be something worth trying out.