Summer Project - Get Him to Handle

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:28 am

I have a 2 year old pointer that LOVES to run and I need to get a handle on him. Some of you may have heard this, but here is his background. He is a direct son of CH Sugarknoll Buckshot. I have owned him for the last 5+ months and he has lived at a pro’s facility - introducing him to birds and keeping him there, with my other dog, for the trial season. Before I got him he was run from the Dakotas to the grouse woods, but always ran big, too big at times. I have run him in a few trials, he has always run off and needed a LOT of scouting. If he continues to run like this he may be too much for me. Again, I need to get a handle on him. When he is run with the collar, I can control his range (somewhat), but when it is off, he forgets what he is running for and just runs and runs and runs with no rhyme or reason, except to hit an edge and go. Once you find him (with a horse or tracker), he comes right to you as if he is saying, “hey, where you been, good to see ya.”

. He is now home with me for the summer and I feel I need to get some good bonding time with him and let him know he needs to stay with ME and not run for himself. How would you go about getting him to handle? I think I am going to treat him like a puppy and start from scratch…but how? Any tips, techniques, tricks?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:58 am

This may seem a little off beat but I have found after I force break a dog they become more in tune with me, there commands, and there handle. I believe it's due to the physical presure that is put on them during the ff process. Does the dog just blow you off when you attempt to handle him (whistle or voice)?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 9:28 am

Ron R wrote:Does the dog just blow you off when you attempt to handle him (whistle or voice)?

During the initial cast yes, but once he gets his bearings straight, he usually listens "ok". When I find him, or at the end of a brace, he comes running right to you as soon as you call him and he sees ya.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:03 am

You say the dog runs big. how big?

How would you go about getting him to handle? I think I am going to treat him like a puppy and start from scratch…but how? Any tips, techniques, tricks?

I am at this very plce with my dog Lucy. the first two trials i entered her in she turned left and ran off and did her own thing completely ignoring me.

for the past two months i have been working on getting her to go WITH me and she is a totaly different dog. here are the things i have been doing that i believe have helped.
1. i have been roading her from a quad. she gets used to running along side me.
2. i've had a friend road her off a quad with her free running. again she gets used to going with the quad/you only this time she can run where ever she wants.
3. i've walked training braces with her. (this one has probably done the most for getting her to handle.) i'll put an ecollar on her and turn her loose. as long as she stays between 10 and 2 i say and do nothing no matter how far out she is. if she starts moving toward the 9 and 3 positions i start singing to her. if she gets behind me i'll start nicking her with the ecollar. nothing harsh, just enough to get her attention. now, i've only done 4 training braces with her over the last 2 months, 2 horse back and 2 walking, but every time we put her on the ground she does better than the time before. she is entered in two trials this weekend. we'll see how it goes.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:09 am

brad27 wrote:You say the dog runs big. how big?

Saturday when I pulled the tracker he was .97 MILES away (so a mile). Yesterday I did not go that far into the brace. It was HOT so I pulled the tracker right away and he was .55 miles

Post by **topher40** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:11 am

Ron-

I couldnt agree more! I have done the same with dogs in the past that werent broke yet but needed to handle and "bond" with me!

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:28 am

For grins...here is the course "we" ran...white is the 30 minute walking course, yellow is where the dog went, and red is when I pulled the tracker and went to get him (dotted is what I had to walk!)

Post by **topher40** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:59 am

I dont see anything wrong with the course he ran, maybe out ran it by what your saying though. Looks like he did end up coming back in your direction to look for you at some point, assuming you were singing to him. If he is to much send him on over, they cant ever run to much if you have a good enough horse!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:06 am

PtrRookie -

I have no experience with what forcebreaking does, so cannot comment on that. I do think that going back to square one to get a handle is a good way to go about it.

Taking the dog for quiet walks in birdless areas, initially with a checkcord on, might get the dog to dial into you more. If the dog goes off away from you, call it once and if it does not come back, turn and quietly walk away. Sit and hide. It will come back looking for you. Then go walk some more. You know the drill. If the dog veers to the left, call it once and veer to the right. I would sing to the dog when it is doing what I want. When it is not...I would clam up. Quiet can make the dog pay attention more than hollering.

I don't think I would put the e-collar on the dog, but I would put a garmin on, just in case. The dog has to want to go with you and stay with you. The e-collar will get the compliance, but when you take it off...well you know what can happen.

If the dog handles on foot, you can have some hope that it will handle off horse. If it does not handle on foot, you have no hope tht it will handle off horse.

Heel/whoa drills might be a good place to start, to get the dog tuened into keying off your movements. I might also do some bending drills, first with a short and then with a long checkcord...then in the field.

A trick that was taught to me might work for you, but you need to exercise extreme care because heat can kill. You take the dog into an area that is devoid of water on a hot day, and let it run. You do not water the dog first and you are carrying the only water. Carry enough watert to wet the dog down thoroughly if necessary and be prepared to carry the dog back tothe vehicle or to shade. Let the dog run for abour three to five minutes, depending on how hot it is. Then call the dog to you. The dog has two choices. It can either come back to you for water or keep running. If the dog comes in to you, give it a squirt or two of water...no more, and send it on. If the dog comes back on its own, send it back out without water and then when it goes back out a ways , call it it and give it a squirt. Of course, at the end of the run, wet the dog down ande give it all the water it can hold.

The first few times you do this I woudl have both tthe Garmin and the e collar on. Some dogs do not know when to quit and can get themselves in trouble. Yours sounds like it might be one of those. as i said above...heat can kill so be real careful if you go this route. Oh BTW, I have only ever done this with pointers, so I make no comment about breeds that might not have the heat tolerance that is typical of field bred pointers.

I have never had a dog that didn't come a'runnin PDQ when I called, after a few summer sessions at Greenwood forest WMA or Colliers Mills WMA .

RayG

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:21 am

topher40 wrote:I dont see anything wrong with the course he ran, maybe out ran it by what your saying though. Looks like he did end up coming back in your direction to look for you at some point, assuming you were singing to him. If he is to much send him on over, they cant ever run to much if you have a good enough horse!

Chris...actually he did not follow me or the course. He ran the yellow line (almost straight north) the course he was suppose to run is the white line. I pulled the tracker where the red line begins in the middle of the white "loop". Then I went north to find him where it says "FOUND". He basically bolted north and did not stop. That being said, he did follow edges and looked for more.

I love his range and if I can dial him in I think he will be a good one. I really do like him

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:33 am

topher40 wrote:Ron-

I couldnt agree more!

So this is what it feels like when somebody agrees with you...NICE. It doesn't happen very often

.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:39 am

Force break him. The theory is that it puts the dog on alert that you may want him to do something, so he pays attention to you. It has nothing to do with retrieving, per se, in this case.

We are at this stage with Casey, except his last performance took him three miles. Very similar run to your boy, though, where he slipped past his handler on a turn and hit the road to town. Literally. I can't use an e-collar for the forcebreaking because that is for correction only at this stage (he was a broke Derby, aging out), and I don't like ears and no one does toe pinch around here. Sooooooo, I'll do a trained retrieve on him and we will add it to his bird handling. He's a shorthair, so he might have to retrieve if I take him back to AKC. We are also backing him off the big runs and putting him back in the puppy pigeon field. He needs to wrap his head around the idea that he HAS TO FIND BIRDS, not just run. It's gonna be a long freakin' summer.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:04 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:He needs to wrap his head around the idea that he HAS TO FIND BIRDS, not just run. It's gonna be a long freakin' summer.

Agree wholeheartedly

Post by **topher40** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:20 pm

Rookie-

Sorry, I didnt read the map right then. If he ran the course wrong, then why didnt you walk with him always keeping him to front? Sometimes the best laid plans need changed, when getting a dog to handle you need to make them believe that they are right where they need to be, even if they arent. With time they will figure out that the point of the game is to stay in front of you.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:38 pm

topher40 wrote: If he ran the course wrong, then why didnt you walk with him always keeping him to front?

Because it was during a trial and I needed to stay on course with the other handler and judges. If I go to him, I am basically asking for the tracker and it is over. He should have "bended" with my calling and singing and he didn't...and kept going...

Post by **slistoe** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:50 pm

PntrRookie wrote: He should have "bended" with my calling and singing and he didn't...and kept going...

Only if you have taught him that bending is what he is to do when you call and sing. The natural response to calling and singing is to keep on keeping on. If you want the dog to do something different than that....

Did you have an Astro on the dog that you took his "track" from?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 12:54 pm

slistoe wrote:Did you have an Astro on the dog that you took his "track" from?

No, I would love to figure that out. I know those directions were recently posted on one of these sites. I just know I watched him take that field and never came back. The yellow line is just a "generalization" of his direction.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon May 23, 2011 1:10 pm

PntrRookie wrote: The yellow line is just a "generalization" of his direction.

That makes a little more sense - because the white and reds for a guy on foot certainly don't add up to the yellow for a dog.

I don't know what the scale is on your image, but if my guess is right that is one darn small 1/2 hour course.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 1:12 pm

slistoe wrote:I don't know what the scale is on your image, but if my guess is right that is one darn small 1/2 hour course.

With 2-3 finds, it is 30 minutes...without it is "course".

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:22 pm

if she gets behind me i'll start nicking her with the ecollar. nothing If a dog is behind you. you are too late to make the correction. It needs to start sooner.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:49 pm

Greg,

Are you walking, riding a horse or a wheeler?

I think I am going to treat him like a puppy and start from scratch

The problem is he is not a puppy, either physically or mentally.

FWIW,
Dave

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:51 pm

Dave Quindt wrote:Greg,

Are you walking, riding a horse or a wheeler?

I think I am going to treat him like a puppy and start from scratch
The problem is he is not a puppy, either physically or mentally.

FWIW,
Dave

Walking trials. I can train off horse wheeler or foot. But now I will just go back to yard work (as if he was a pup).

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon May 23, 2011 3:53 pm

if she gets behind me i'll start nicking her with the ecollar. nothing If a dog is behind you. you are too late to make the correction. It needs to start sooner.

If this was directed at me, let me explain. if she is out to the side working, i let her get to the edge of say 10 oclock. if it looks like she is going to go past 10 and start getting into the 9's i start singing to her. if she doesn't turn and continues to 9 oclock then starts getting into the 8's, i nick her while continuing to sing. this past weekend i only had to nick her twice, once on saturday, once on sunday. the rest of the time she was staying to the front pretty good and even made a couple of the turns on course without any singing from me.

nothing If a dog is behind you. you are too late to make the correction.

when is the dog in the wrong?

Post by **slistoe** » Mon May 23, 2011 4:42 pm

PntrRookie wrote:He basically bolted north and did not stop.

If your dog actually "bolted north and did not stop" you would never have caught up to him where it says found. By the time you walked to the middle of the white line and pulled out the tracker he would have been somewhere north of the farmyard at the top of the picture.

You can start over as a puppy if you like, but don't forget that your dog now has a well established notion that when the whistle blows at a trial he can just go to hunting wherever his nose and feet will lead with no worries - you WILL come and find him. And he is happy with how that is working. All the yard work in the world will not change his mind about how the world runs in that scenario.

Does he actually know a turn command? What does he do when the pro runs him?

You have a tough row to hoe if that course is typical - a dog with a 250 yard range would be a handful on that course.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:52 pm

slistoe wrote:If your dog actually "bolted north and did not stop" you would never have caught up to him where it says found. By the time you walked to the middle of the white line and pulled out the tracker he would have been somewhere north of the farmyard at the top of the picture.

Not exactly sure how he "bolted" or zig-zagged there, but that is exactly where I found him. Pretty wet and on the other side of a pond.

slistoe wrote:Does he actually know a turn command? What does he do when the pro runs him?

With the collar he handles like a "teenager"...but still handles

slistoe wrote:You have a tough row to hoe if that course is typical - a dog with a 250 yard range would be a handful on that course.

This is typical of about 50% of the courses we run. If he continues w/o a handle, yes he will be too much, I have faith we can somehow get a handle on him. If not he will be a nice horseback prospect for someone.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:11 pm

PntrRookie wrote:I have a 2 year old pointer that LOVES to run and I need to get a handle on him. Some of you may have heard this, but here is his background. He is a direct son of CH Sugarknoll Buckshot. I have owned him for the last 5+ months and he has lived at a pro’s facility - introducing him to birds and keeping him there, with my other dog, for the trial season. Before I got him he was run from the Dakotas to the grouse woods, but always ran big, too big at times. I have run him in a few trials, he has always run off and needed a LOT of scouting. If he continues to run like this he may be too much for me. Again, I need to get a handle on him. When he is run with the collar, I can control his range (somewhat), but when it is off, he forgets what he is running for and just runs and runs and runs with no rhyme or reason, except to hit an edge and go. Once you find him (with a horse or tracker), he comes right to you as if he is saying, “hey, where you been, good to see ya.” . He is now home with me for the summer and I feel I need to get some good bonding time with him and let him know he needs to stay with ME and not run for himself. How would you go about getting him to handle? I think I am going to treat him like a puppy and start from scratch…but how? Any tips, techniques, tricks?

Just buy a Brittany and all problems will be solved

Post by **slistoe** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:41 pm

PntrRookie wrote:I have faith we can somehow get a handle on him. If not he will be a nice horseback prospect for someone.

Ah, the oft repeated fallacy.
If your dog is truly a run off he will be of no use to anyone. A run off can't win regardless of what stake they are entered in.
Best of luck with him.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:39 am

slistoe wrote:If your dog is truly a run off he will be of no use to anyone. A run off can't win regardless of what stake they are entered in. Best of luck with him.

True. But others have more land, different terrain, more tools to develop HB dogs than I may. If I think he has the tools, maybe he would be worth the effort for someone. He is not going anywhere for a long time. Preachin to the choir slistoe

utprizewire · Post by **utprizewire** » Tue May 24, 2011 7:26 am

Greg,
As you know I wish you and Dan the best of luck. You appear to be in the same spot as I was with him. Looking back I wish I had a little more info on him before I bought him. Not saying it was a mistake because he has the tools to be a class dog. I couldn't get a handle on him either! Even working with a pro we couldn't get it done. If I would have known that force breaking him would have helped I would have done it in a heartbeat. Dan has one of the best natural retreives I've had with any dog. He did handle well out in the prairie but did not handle for me in the woods. Part of the problem was him running trash but unfortunately none of the grouse hunts in the woods was productive for us. Hang in there..pm me or shoot me a call sometime.
UT

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue May 24, 2011 8:06 am

utprizewire wrote:Greg,
As you know I wish you and Dan the best of luck. You appear to be in the same spot as I was with him. Looking back I wish I had a little more info on him before I bought him. Not saying it was a mistake because he has the tools to be a class dog. I couldn't get a handle on him either! Even working with a pro we couldn't get it done. If I would have known that force breaking him would have helped I would have done it in a heartbeat. Dan has one of the best natural retreives I've had with any dog. He did handle well out in the prairie but did not handle for me in the woods. Part of the problem was him running trash but unfortunately none of the grouse hunts in the woods was productive for us. Hang in there..pm me or shoot me a call sometime.
UT

Thx Brandon. I knew he was going to be my project and I have no problem with that. I agree "...he has the tools to be a class dog." He does love to retrieve and I found out he is not afraid of swimming (he had to swim to me once I found him). Did you ever think he had a hearing issue? I am going to check on that too. I am going to concentrate on shortening EVERYTHING up...runs, walks, retrieves, bird work, etc., so I get a handle on him. If he runs short for a year I do not care...I know he has wheels. Now he needs to know I am in charge and have control of him. From Bruce, to you, to me, to Tom and now back to me...I bet his head was/is spinning. Time for some R&R and CLOSE work. I like the breeding of your GSP pup. I judged his daddy at a field trial 3-4 years ago. Keep in touch!

utprizewire · Post by **utprizewire** » Tue May 24, 2011 10:50 am

Greg,
Don't know if there was a hearing issue but worth checking on. Dan has been shuffled around a bit but he seemed like a dog that fits in well to his surroundings. Bruce and I worked him in the field keeping him close and turning him by voice. He responded real well in the field but obviously not in the woods. I will never forget turning him loose out in the grasalands and watching him roll. It was a thing of beauty. He has power and style to boot.

force breaking him may not be a bad thing to get that bond going. He would be a super easy dog to get force broke.. Three to four weeks easy.. That might be the trick. Good luck and keep me in the loop.
ut

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:38 pm

utprizewire wrote:He has power and style to boot.

......

- That is what my face looked like this spring...all in one 30 minute brace!

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:43 pm

Maybe my experience will help you some, or give you an idea for your dog. I have a setter that was bounced around before she came here, and she bolted, too. Call it run off, self-hunt, bolt, whatever - the dog wasn't going with me. One time i found her a mile away, and she isn't even a fast dog.

I put an ecollar on her and I started running her in small fenced areas, like my 3 acre pasture. She'd run the fence line, so it was easy to time turns. I'd ask her to turn and if she did, fine. If not, she got nicked. When she was reliable in the pasture I moved out to a bigger field, and did the same thing with multiple turns and nicks if needed. The next step was running with my trial dogs on whatever grounds I wanted.

In the meantime, I made that dog MY dog. She went everywhere with me, stayed next to me in the house, and she got lots of treats and attention. I did everything for her, and made her do things for me. It took a good while for her to bond.

Also, when I roaded her, I'd give my whistle and verbal commands same as when she was off lead, when I speeded up or turned the quad.

I think her problem was twofold. First, she didn't think she belonged to anybody, and had really didn't have a clue that she was part of a team. Secondly, her previous owners apparently didn't do much about training her to handle.

These days she runs a nice little pattern. She's shortish, a nice busy AKC gundog range. But she doesn't duck out of sight and take off, and she's responsive to commands to turn or come in. And all my dogs always run with an ecollar except in trials. I don't have a problem with them being collar wise or unresponsive w/o the collar.

Good luck with your little renegade

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:19 am

Update: Dan (2 yrs. old) has been home for nearly ten days and settled in like a champ. He is quiet and VERY clean in his kennel. Comes in the house and is not overly disruptive. I have been working on simple here, whoa, no, kennel commands in the yard he seems to hear them fine. I have noticed he reacts to noises throughout the neighborhood, i.e. mower backfires 200 yds. away, he pops up and looks that way, dogs barking 2-3 houses down the street, he acknowledges them, etc. He loves to play with the other dogs. He took to the electric yard fence well too! It has been extremely HOT this past week…temps in the 90-100s (yes in WI) so we have not hit the field yet. After another week of “home studies” I plan to get him into a small field with check cord and continue the here, singing/whistles commands to change directions. I will then watch his reactions to confirm he is hearing me. I plan on leaving birds out of this for a while. All-in-all I really like the way he has started to become my buddy!

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:36 am

topher40 wrote:I dont see anything wrong with the course he ran, maybe out ran it by what your saying though. Looks like he did end up coming back in your direction to look for you at some point, assuming you were singing to him. If he is to much send him on over, they cant ever run to much if you have a good enough horse!

I am sorry are we looking at the same picture? That dog wasnt on course.

crazyboy · Post by **crazyboy** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:37 pm

My pup just wants to run too. He is still young though, need to figure out how to get him to handle.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:42 pm

Sorry its off topic but he is just one heck of a nice looking dog ! he would make anyone proud just having him around hope you get your goals met with him !

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Dan update… He has adapted very well to the kennel, house, kids, routine, in-ground fence, etc. See lounging picture below. He is the top dog. He is listening well. When training, I keep him in the training field, approx 10-15 acres, and handle him with the checkcord, constantly changing directions and making him come with me. After 10-15 minutes of this I let him run, dragging the checkcord and I constantly call and change directions. He is responding nicely. I do run him with the ecollar and have not had to go to it that often yet.

I randomly put a pigeon or two out in traps throughout the field and after some handling drills allow him to hunt. He is pretty much “derby broke.” Point and chase. When working with another individual I will hitch the checkcord around his flank and allow the helper to flush the pigeon. If he breaks, he puts pressure on himself and usually will stand there and watch it fly away. The first picture is of him pointing (85+ degrees) and the second is of him standing after the pigeon flew away and we shot.

I will continue to work him in a variety of different controlled fields this summer. Do not plan on running him on a course or field that I can not control. As I open the field up I will continue to see how he responds to...so far so good. NO collar work around birds, just reinforcing whoa verbally and checkcord. The proof will be as we open it up and let him roll with and without a collar, but for right now it is a lot of bonding and handling work.

gmanksu · Post by **gmanksu** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:44 pm

Here is the situation, he has gotten away with getting away so now it seems okay to him, I had the same problem with one of my dogs, he went where he pleased not where I wanted him to run or to key off me on the horse. If they can get away from you and they can on foot no matter the collar situation etc, I like making him your buddy as much as the next guy but I will say that when he gets in the same situation he will more then likely try you again. In a training situation a dog really shouldn't be more then 100-150 yds in front of you, training sessions are not field trials and if you can't see them then you can't train them. I like a running dog as much as anyone put after spending some time working with a pro that I would consider one of the best trainers out there today, my view has changed. Here is what I have done and what I have seen done with renegade type dogs. I would get him responding to cues in the yard with the collar, take all control from him, he doesn't eat without your okay, he doesn't piss without your okay, whoa him to release to food on your command, when the weather gets more conducive to running gets some drags, run your other dogs or your training partners dogs round after round with this dog on the ground dragging the weight, he will start coming to you to release the pressure of pulling the weight when he gets tired, at that point leave him on the ground without the weight it is now that you have him and this is when training starts not ends, after consistently doing this with him he will figure out that to get the pressure off he has to be with you and doing what you want him to do not what he wants to do. This is about you controlling him not him controlling you nothing more nothing less. Make him getting away from you uncomfortable and being closer comfortable, dogs are characters of self preservation like other animals, they want to be comfortable!

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:18 am

Late summer training with Dan...birdwork is coming along and he is handling nicely

Dan 2011 061.jpg

Dan 2011 064.jpg

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:18 am

The dog is running because the dog is hunting. Run him in a field wher e birds are plante close together if the dog perceived the birds are close to you he will hunt close to you

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:30 pm

looks great, i have a half brother of him laying on the couch that had similar issues, they share a resembles.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:55 am

mudhunter...how is he bred and what did you do to work through issues? How old is he now? Results?

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:03 am

Mark Flanagan from NY bred him out of one of his bitches. I brought mine in the house and made him my buddy for a few months before I did much of anything with him. Then it was working him off a four wheeler but changing directions a lot and when he decided to keep going one way I just laid on the collar, we had a few times of him trying to hide and doing goofy stuff to get away but he decided it was better to do it my way. No birds for a while. Once he started to find birds he forgot to listen and just wanted to go out hunting, so we stepped back to just listening and slowly worked birds in. I will be running him this fall and can't wait to see how he does, I think he's ready.

I work with a really experienced pro and the biggest thing I have learned from him is to train in a matter that the dog can't get away with anything and to set the dog up for success.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 am

mudhunter wrote:the biggest thing I have learned from him is to train in a matter that the dog can't get away with anything and to set the dog up for success.

Is there another way to train?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:04 am

I have had a talk about handling and if the dog was with a pro, why would he not give you hands on lessons for fixing the problem. The dog should always go in the direction they are released.... if it turns and gives you the finger let it know the only safe place is where your going. If they get behind a little they will catch on and are working towards being independent but cooperative. going the opposite way is asking for a hard e collar correction ..... let them know they work for you and they don't have a choice.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:10 am

PntrRookie wrote:
utprizewire wrote:He has power and style to boot.
...... ...... ...... - That is what my face looked like this spring...all in one 30 minute brace!

I can sure relate to that. This has been fascinating reading. A e-collar and a turn command should help.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:51 am

I'll give you my opinion on this.....

Sure is hard to diagnose the dog in not ever seeing him, but at 2 yrs old he is no puppy, to me it sounds as if he was allowed to develop what he is doing...which is fine if that is what you want. Unfortunately it does not sound like that is what you want him to do. Gonna have to keep your thumb on him when running and not allow him to blow out to the front early. Probably one of the best things you could do is exactly what you did take the summer off from running him and be his buddy. I agree the FF can do wonders for almost all dogs, it's a great foundation tool.
Now the picture of the course....take in mind now im going off a picture and not seeing the course or the dog run. BUT I see a classic mishandling the dog. I say that cause I have been there all to well. With that early bend in the course, you should have been really singing to make that turn with him, then let him roll down that back line, then before the next turn sing to him and gather him back up.

IMO what the dog laid down on the yellow line really was not anything bad. What was bad was not keeping him on course. As a matter of fact I liked what the dog laid down....he was to his front, hitting the objectives. Now he may have been chasing deer on those edges, rabbitt, whatever thats the tough part to disect through just a picture. You gotta get him to turn with ya. plant a bird on the turns to stop him then you can gather him up at the turns and send him the way you want to.
Again very hard to suggest much without seeing the dog run, JMO.
Good luck buddy, nice looking dog.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:00 am

slistoe wrote:
mudhunter wrote:the biggest thing I have learned from him is to train in a matter that the dog can't get away with anything and to set the dog up for success.
Is there another way to train?

Have you ever watched 90% of amateurs and some "pros" hahaha?

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:19 pm

mudhunter wrote:
slistoe wrote:
mudhunter wrote:the biggest thing I have learned from him is to train in a matter that the dog can't get away with anything and to set the dog up for success.
Is there another way to train?

Have you ever watched 90% of amateurs and some "pros" hahaha?

You mean the folks who aren't dog trainers.