messed up on "whoa"

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sandhillsgsp
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messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:14 pm

I think i messed up somewhere on "whoa" training. A little background: she is an 18 month old GSP. She knows the basic commands and has been collar conditioned. I've been using the Hickox method with teaching the command. We've been through using the place board, barrel, elevated place board, and the suitcase technique. She did well with all of these......she was ambitious, i'd click her and give a small treat, and of course she'd take it. So, after she was very consistent with the suitcase i moved her onto the e-collar on the waist. Here is where everything went downhill. The first session i didn't stimulate her. I just let her get used to it, which shouldn't have been much of an adjustment after the suitcase. The next session i gave her the command and when she broke her position i stimulated her and moved her back. After this she shut down.....tail tucked and head down. Now when i even try to click and pay her on the whoa command without the collar, she shuts down. Not good. Where did i go wrong and what do i need to do to correct this? Thanks

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:25 pm

When you went to the e collar on the flank did you do any thing to prep and teach this point of contact and also your e collar how so soft or harsh is the simulation value to high and the dog is and will shut down out quickly becomes a negative sensation.
I use the rick smith teaching a point of contact via the post before I ever strap the collar on and have an end collar that has very low levels of simulation.

I would back up and find a rebuilding point where your dog is happy again
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:35 pm

I use the Sportdog 400 and on level one it is a pretty low level stimulus......i did not go above this level. I had the points in contact with the side of her abdomen. So i guess i did little to prep.
I backed off for a few days then tried putting her back up on an elevated board and she shut down again. I even whoa'd her in the house and she didn't respond well.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by nitrex » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:11 pm

Did you follow the Hickox method when introducing the collar?

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:00 pm

If you did not follow the rick smith method of teaching a point of contact via what is called the whoa post you did nothing to prepare your dog for the flank collar just strapping the ecollar on is no prong for what the stimulation means
I sure hope that is not what hiscox is trying to do there as his method and the smith method are different and until one understands a method and follows it through combining methods well only confuse a dog and lead to shut downs.
For those also reading These shut downs are entirely human related and never to be blamed by the method which was not followed or introduced to a dog properly.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:03 pm

PS if you would like to know how to properly introduce the dog to the flank collar www.huntsmith.com under resources there is a link to articles there is a two part article on the whoa post this takes you through the steps to teaching a dog the point of contact before you strap the collar on
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:17 pm

You been training positive reward by giving a marker then you went to a punishment without the marker. Dog has no idea what she was corrected for. I'd go to the neck with the collar at this stage and let her wear it a bit before using it. I'd also introduce a marker for undesired actions, probably a verbal warning.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:32 pm

If one properly teaches a point of contact then the flank is nothing more then a cue..when one doesn't properly teach the point of contact then it becomes a punishment. A dog that is properly taught the flank point of contact stops nicely head up and happy.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:44 pm

I believe the e-collar is being used correctively here, not being used to force the dog. This is where the DT Jump/Rise function comes into use. The dog is accustomed to a marker. If one was not given, she may be confused as to why she received the shock. I still find the kennel command intro to be the most effective introduction to the "turn off the stimulation" school of e-collar usage because it gives the dog a secure space.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:20 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I believe the e-collar is being used correctively here, not being used to force the dog. This is where the DT Jump/Rise function comes into use. The dog is accustomed to a marker. If one was not given, she may be confused as to why she received the shock. I still find the kennel command intro to be the most effective introduction to the "turn off the stimulation" school of e-collar usage because it gives the dog a secure space.
?????

Wow I am sure glad I use the Rick Smith method of teaching a point of contact on the flank ..As then a Cue wouldn't be a shock for something wrong it would just be a cue that means to stand still. and As for jump and rise...Sure glad the OP didn't have that on his dog it was confused enough with the SD not introduced properly the J&R would have made it far worse
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:36 pm

Hickox developed a marker based corrrctuon program with DT.

In this case, I would say the dog should have been off the reward system and standing on her own before being proofed and corrected. If the program was Hickox/Wilkes, an intermediate step was skipped, thus creating confusion when the dog was corrected in a scenario where she normally would have been rewarded.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:16 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Hickox developed a marker based corrrctuon program with DT.

In this case, I would say the dog should have been off the reward system and standing on her own before being proofed and corrected. If the program was Hickox/Wilkes, an intermediate step was skipped, thus creating confusion when the dog was corrected in a scenario where she normally would have been rewarded.

Thats nice :roll: ..

I can only explain by what I do hands on with dogs here in training

Rick And Ronnie Smith worked on putting the flank E collar on the flank and teaching a way for point of contact before that e collar is strapped on and how to teach it as a cue not a form of punishment.

SO back to the OPs question

Back up find that happy point..or seek someone that has hands on experience near you that trains dogs.

when a dog does something once or twice this is not trained it is only through repetition where every time your dog is doing the same thing that training begins.
very few people have that patience..they read it in a book or watch a DVD and think they are instant trainers. You need to learn to read your dog. when they start to buy into the program and begin to do stuff confidently...if you go to fast this is also where a dog will go through a shut down.

PS I am trying to go through scenarios about what I have observed in dogs during training and since I can only go by what and how you post I am trying to give you the most common things I watch when an owner and their dog are having some problems :wink:
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:29 am

Thanks for the replies. To answer some questions.....I was a little late in the game with my education as a trainer.....which is most likely the reason for some of the troubles i am having. I did use the kennel to introduce the collar. However, due to my inexperience i probably went to fast. I have read some of Rick Smith's stuff, but have not used his methods.
Cajun...there were markers used. When she did nor remain steady on whoa i immediately picked her up and placed her back in the correct position. She then stayed steady until released. She definitely knows what the command means and what to do when it is given.

Ok, so where to go now? Like knine said...go back to a positive stage? I'm looking for that right now. Unfortunately, in the yard she may not like hearing the whoa command at the moment.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:59 am

Poor marking of the corrected behavior.

http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/av ... aining.pdf

The dog should not have had the "get used to it" session. If she made any infraction, then it should have been marked and corrected.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:24 pm

sandhillsgsp wrote:Thanks for the replies. To answer some questions.....I was a little late in the game with my education as a trainer.....which is most likely the reason for some of the troubles i am having. I did use the kennel to introduce the collar. However, due to my inexperience i probably went to fast. I have read some of Rick Smith's stuff, but have not used his methods.
Cajun...there were markers used. When she did nor remain steady on whoa i immediately picked her up and placed her back in the correct position. She then stayed steady until released. She definitely knows what the command means and what to do when it is given.

Ok, so where to go now? Like knine said...go back to a positive stage? I'm looking for that right now. Unfortunately, in the yard she may not like hearing the whoa command at the moment.
go back make happy...when she gets confident again take smaller steps and the work the word back in
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:35 pm

Sounds good. Thanks for the replies.

Also....didn't want to attach someone's method to why what i did was or wasn't working. It was my doing.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:46 pm

sandhillsgsp wrote:Thanks for the replies. To answer some questions.....I was a little late in the game with my education as a trainer.....which is most likely the reason for some of the troubles i am having. I did use the kennel to introduce the collar. However, due to my inexperience i probably went to fast. I have read some of Rick Smith's stuff, but have not used his methods.
Cajun...there were markers used. When she did nor remain steady on whoa i immediately picked her up and placed her back in the correct position. She then stayed steady until released. She definitely knows what the command means and what to do when it is given.

Ok, so where to go now? Like knine said...go back to a positive stage? I'm looking for that right now. Unfortunately, in the yard she may not like hearing the whoa command at the moment.
Markers have to be followed by reinforcement. I would not call picking a dog up and resetting it a marker. I do a LOT of clicker training and use the technique for correction, also, so I see a real issue with not going back and doing the chain steps for correction. Of course, you may not be actually using a clicker to capture voluntary behavior, either. Hard to say without a thorough understanding of just what you are doing. I never use clickers to mark a behavior I coerce the dog into.

As far as "hearing whoa," that's a non-issue for me. The command is never verbal. All the cues are visual. I go from stop-release on lead to hand signal and whoa post.

Good luck. Maybe you should just give her a couple of weeks off to reboot.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:52 pm

sandhillsgsp wrote:Sounds good. Thanks for the replies.

Also....didn't want to attach someone's method to why what i did was or wasn't working. It was my doing.
Some trainers are noted for constantly changing and adding to their program.

All methods are based off what a trainer sees as a benefit and work on perfecting it to their program..some trainers just see a method and just add it just because.

Again I would back way up work some short short sessions working on one small thing ..and have a place where the training starts for me that is the chain gang or kennel if I can't have a chain gang handy for what ever reason...So we go there sit for a bit then go to a session when session has that one good note Stop end there and put back on the chain gang or kennel..and let the dog reflect on what just transpired..it is just as important for you to end on those good notes as it is for the dog
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by moonshinekennel » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:34 pm

I also use Hickock's method. Have you been running the dog with a check chord half hitched around the waist collar on neck and collar on waist? After intro to birds in the field , your field work so be a fly away drill. Using the check cord on the flank to try to walk in front of your dog twitching the check chord and moving past the dog to attempt to flush. If the dog becomes apprehensive throw a bird for the dog to chase. This should create a contact point on the rear to stand still. This is done before formal training from the time the dog was a pup. I would back up put the dog on birds make it fun than go back to your yard work. Sc handle until the dog understands the Command couple weeks than add stimulation before command until the dog is stopping on stimulation than flip it command stimulation. Remember the stimulation must come on even if the dog is going to stop (association). After the dog is stopping on the command drop stimulation and use it only to reenforce the command. Once the dog is stopping for himself than the dog will get stylish and up beat. Until than the dog will be pouty because he did not want to comply and you made him. He is a pack animal and did not want to. Do not us in the field around birds at all until you can run the dog out free and have him stopping several hundred yards away on command only. That should be your bench mark as to when to move on.
Laying down sitting down and shutting down is related to the dog not wanting to comply to your command work thru it using the least pressure need to get compliance. The style will come after the dog is doing it for himself. Keep the yard work separate from the field work until after formal training than merge.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:21 am

Something happened with the collar on the flank that I believe is probably three parts; confusion about the desired behavior, timing, and too much juice. Let me explain by working backwards. The DT collars have a large range of stimulation set with a "digital rheostat" so to speak. When the stimulation goes on the flank it should be only as high as the dog can feel. I am a candy a__ __ when it comes to electricity and I have never started a collar on the flank with any dog that I could'nt hold tight in my hand on constant and barely feel it, if you cannot do that with the collar you probably started too high.

As far as the timing and understanding the behavior...maybe try this. With the flank collar on (switch off) put down a place board and practice heeling up to when you get all four feet on the board click and treat. Do under ten reps and quit, do something else for awhile. Then get it implanted well enough that you drop the leash and walk away, throw a hat in the air, stack the dog a little all with no movement standing on the board ( a place the dog is comfortable)...then reward. I would do all of this silently NO COMMANDS.

Now turn the collar at a level that is as low as the dog can possibly feel (as discussed above)...lead to the place board and two or three feet away apply stimulation when the dog hits the board let it off, click and treat for the behavior. When you get it right...I dunno a hundred times over two weeks, then remove the place board and apply stimulation on lead, when the dog stops; click and treat as before, then and only then would I overlay a command. The key factor here is a dog that understands the contact point on the flank means stop and is not collar shy. It is hard to detremine how well your training went early with the flank but it is more clear that the collar is an issue now.

IMO there is some minor risk in Hickox' methodology if you don't study it carefully and understand it completely, attending the seminar is very helpful. Thee are three parts to the training; operant conditioning ( notify correct and notify reward) avoidance training, this is where the stimulation is applied and then removed for the proper behavior, and lastly compliance; this is when a behavior and a command are understood stone cold and you use the collar to correct an unwanted behavior.

I do not often suggest this, but a strong option B for you depending on the reaction you get might be to change methods for getting the dog to stop and stand (whoa if you will but remember the word isn't important). Order training with Mo and a pinch collar and checkcord and change the game for the dog. They use the neck for a contact point and introduce birds as a stop to flush...If you feel like you have hit a wall with the e-collar this might be a good "re-start" for you, and Mo and Jonesy are on here enough to help if you need it.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Ridge-Point » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:02 pm

Sure seems like an awfull lot of steps just to get a dog to stand still.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by volraider » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:21 pm

Hook a pulley to a tree limb, attach to the dog around the neck and flank, use a 12 ft piece of pvc attached to the collar, use the e-collar on low around the flank and around the neck, put the dog up on a barrell. :lol:

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:28 pm

That is true Ridge point...but write down step by step how to make a pot of coffee and it will seem like a lot. Doing something correctly to begin with in a building fashion alleviates a lot of the problems, it is fixing problems that is a lot of work.

I do like the Smith/Hickox methodology that keeps a point of contact on the flank. I believe it clarifies for the dog the difference between a stop or whoa correction in the field for the sophomore dog. The neck correction is understood easily after maturation, but early on I like making a field correction away from a bird and with the stimulation in a spot that means only one thing stop and don't move. I have seen too many dogs that get a neck correction during a bump or chase and return to the handler as though they are being re-called.

Don't get me wrong, there are far more successful trainers that do it otherwise and they may be a better option when things go bad as they have in the original posters example.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by snips » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Why do people have to use the ecollar in teaching the dog Whoa? I do not see the need for it to teach a dog to stand still...
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:01 pm

You don't have to...and you dont have to for here or anything else for that matter...but at distance if you want to make a correction and you have conditioned a dog to contact points, you can make the correction.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:07 pm

snips wrote:Why do people have to use the ecollar in teaching the dog Whoa? I do not see the need for it to teach a dog to stand still...
+1
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:22 pm

snips wrote:Why do people have to use the ecollar in teaching the dog Whoa? I do not see the need for it to teach a dog to stand still...
The way rick uses it is a cute to stop so when a dog does commit to a chase you can softly and quietly cue the dog to stop if dog is doing there job nothing is said or done
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:24 pm

A positive step today.........I pulled the barrel out in the yard and she walked over and started jumping up onto it. Put her on top and she got herself in position and held posture. I gave her a click and treat but she put the treat in her mouth and spit it out. Ok. She got back in posture....held her there for a little then clicked and excitedly pat her on the head. She got excited and i let her run around a bit. She got up one more time and we did the same thing. No tail tuck, head down.........except for spitting out the treat, she was positive.

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:29 pm

Try a different treat. :)
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by sandhillsgsp » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:49 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Try a different treat. :)
Good call. Heard some guys like using small bits of hot dogs. Any thoughts?

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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:58 pm

sandhillsgsp wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Try a different treat. :)
Good call. Heard some guys like using small bits of hot dogs. Any thoughts?
Cut the franks in 1/2" slices, then quarter the slices. Spread them on a double thickness of paper towel, then cover with a single layer and microwave them for ten seconds. Stir them around and nuke them again. Dogs LOVE them.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:44 pm

sandhillsgsp wrote:A positive step today.........I pulled the barrel out in the yard and she walked over and started jumping up onto it. Put her on top and she got herself in position and held posture. I gave her a click and treat but she put the treat in her mouth and spit it out. Ok. She got back in posture....held her there for a little then clicked and excitedly pat her on the head. She got excited and i let her run around a bit. She got up one more time and we did the same thing. No tail tuck, head down.........except for spitting out the treat, she was positive.
I would have left the treat out of it if she was happy where you were at...some dogs are not treat orientated.
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by snips » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:26 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
snips wrote:Why do people have to use the ecollar in teaching the dog Whoa? I do not see the need for it to teach a dog to stand still...
The way rick uses it is a cute to stop so when a dog does commit to a chase you can softly and quietly cue the dog to stop if dog is doing there job nothing is said or done
I use it later to stop also with a bird in the air...But I am saying it is not needed in training a dog to Whoa...E can be easily introduced later on a dog breaking.
brenda

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Ahumphers91a
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Re: messed up on "whoa"

Post by Ahumphers91a » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:54 am

Run a flank hitch with a check cord (In your yard for YARD WORK). It inforces the whoa command. your one on one with your dog telling him or her WHOA. keep at it, the dog will come around, eventually you can introduce birds in the yard work. It's repatition.

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