won't retrieve, keeps the bird

[AG74]

When we got Blaze (GWP) he was 9 mo and "started" - ie - he would point, hold to the shot, then retrieve to hand. I saw him do this with his trainer. I havent had the opportunity to put many birds under him, but in the 2 months I've had him, I've done a lot of obedience type training (sit, stay, lay down, play dead, heel, etc, etc) all with reward/clicker training and he has done very well. I've also done quartering training, recall, and retrieving. He does well at all that for an 11 mo.

For retrieving, I put him at whoa on a football field and my wife throws 5 similar sticks from a short distance - he holds steady for those. then she picks them up, throws an orange dummy and he retrieves it back to me when he is released, by command by me. All great, right?

I got him on preserve chukar last Sat. He found the bird, pointed, held till just after the shot and bird was down, was released from CC without a command. He went directly to the birds and picked them up, but instead of retrieving back to me, paraded around with the bird like it was a game. I ignored him, walked away, and he did come with the bird(s) but each time he didnt really want to give the bird up. He has a soft mouth, so is not chewing on them, just wants to "keep" them.

I attribute this to him still being new to this, not having had many birds and still being a puppy (11 mo) now, but I don't want him to develop this bad habit. Any hints? I was thinking of taking a dead bird and tossing it while he is on the CC, then "reeling" him back in if he doesn't retrieve back to me.

any other ideas on this topic?
Thanks,
Al

[gonehuntin']

If your obedience was really solid, he wouldn't prance around with it, he'd come and stand or sit when commanded.

It is very common for a young dog to do this. Force fetch takes care of it, but if you don't want to get into that, you probably don't have to. I would simply keep him on a cc, and GENTLY reel him in, praising him the while. Let him stand or sit by you holding the bird and tell him what a great dog he is. Then after ten seconds or so, reach down, take the bird, and command "drop".

See what happens and let us know. It is NOT a serious problem.

[adogslife]

Bumpers are not worth keeping. Birds are.
Obedience is not where it needs to be.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

If I have an owner that doesn't want me to FF there dog provided that it is a natural retriever, then I will work on the "here" command where the dog has to touch my hand at completion. Stop throwing bumpers and go back to working on "here". Keep a little treat in your hand, and give it to the dog ever 3rd time or so. Then when you say "here" the dog should come all the way and touch nose to hand. Then try throwing a fresh-killed bird, not one you shoot. After you have had him retrieve 6-10 hand killed birds in the yard, then go back to the field. When you shoot one, say "here" once the bird is in his mouth, and walk backwards. This should speed up his retrieve and give him a treat. Then throw that bird again for him. Every bird I shoot, I throw it again for the dog to retrieve. It helps them put together the training to the shooting of the bird. The funner the the game the faster and happier the retrieve.

If that doesn't fix the issue after about 25-30 birds, this dog will need to be FF. I wouldn't use a checkcord to pull, because the dog will most likely pull to the resistence and cause a bigger issue.

There will be several ideas presented. Try what you can, and see what works for you.

[kensfishing]

Why would anyone give a treat to a dog when it's job is to obey. You can't take treats to the field everytime you kill a bird. Retieving is a command. You don't kill bumpers in the field so why keep trying to make a dog retrieve them.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

Oh! you have a treat everytime you kill a bird. My great grandfather used to give all of his dogs the quail head, and they never ate a bird.
As for treats, this is what I do to avoid FF one. I FF 90% of the dogs I train, but there are some people who don't want it. Some owners only care about the point, and they could care less about a retrieve.

[adogslife]

Beyond that, there are dogs out hunting who are interested in food?

[kensfishing]

All of my dogs retrieve, to hand. I to used to give the head of quail, but it the desert it's too dry and it takes too much water just to keep a dog going without giving him something that make them thirsty. Teaching retrieving is still a command and I don't give treats and the dogs love doing it. It's called positive training.

[kninebirddog]

If your obedience was really solid, he wouldn't prance around with it, he'd come and stand or sit when commanded.

It is very common for a young dog to do this. Force fetch takes care of it, but if you don't want to get into that, you probably don't have to. I would simply keep him on a cc, and GENTLY reel him in, praising him the while. Let him stand or sit by you holding the bird and tell him what a great dog he is. Then after ten seconds or so, reach down, take the bird, and command "drop".

See what happens and let us know. It is NOT a serious problem.

Yep this Doesn't sound like a retrieve problem sounds like a recall aka Here problem.

[GWPtyler]

Boy...if you had fetching down, I mean DOWN, and then transitioned to birds and he did that I'd say that was blatant disobedience and would have corrected him immediately. If he was prancing around and I said COME and he didn't respond, he definitely would have gotten an e-collar reminder of who the boss was.

That's assuming the dog actually knows what he's doing. Have you attempted FF with an actual bird yet?

[AG74]

Wow, thanks for all the replies so far! I'll agree with a couple of the posters, his obedience is good, but not 100%, or even 80% maybe. He is very good with no distractions, but can get off track easily with distractors, so his obedience is not yet where it should be. That being said, I work with him twice daily on a variety of training scenarios and continue to raise the bar and he catches on quick. I am gentle, maybe too gentle. He wears the e collar as part of his uniform, but I rarely turn it on, so most or all of his reinforcement is positive, praise and treats.

On the recall: two or three of us will spread out on the field and call him to us with Here or whistle. He gets a treat from the person who called him. This is like a game to him and he RUNS directly to the caller. I will also call him randomly in the AM, when it's just he and I, and he recalls to here very well. He knows he gets a treat from my hand, so that isn't a problem.

I'll try the killed pigeon while on the CC, so I have positive control. Thanks again for the tips and advice, nice to know this isn't a serious serious problem yet.

[kninebirddog]

Yes Here means HERE no side trips or playing around

It is a command not a request

[gonehuntin']

Yes Here means HERE no side trips or playing around

It is a command not a request

+1

[AG74]

Gonehuntin'

thanks for your replies. I'm glad this is normal for a young dog and that it's not a serious problem. I'll try the fetching solution you offered. I have a question on HERE and using the e-collar. I'm a bit apprehensive about using the e-collar, since I don't want to put too much pressure on the dog. I know he needs a correction on his "detours" when being called however.

On my dogtra 2500, 20 is his min stimulation level (no distractions, totally calm). 127 is the highest setting. When I call him HERE, and he makes a detour, what would be the appropriate response, most likely? 30, 40, 50? I don't want to cross his eyes, but do want a positive response from him. I know that slowly ratcheting up the intensity only "hardens" the dog to the collar?

I guess in my mind I'd rather take longer on obedience, and work thru some disobedience, than I would like to try to reverse undue pressure/corrections on the dog if I make a mistake and juice him too hard. I think he is fairly soft. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Al

[gonehuntin']

Thank Goodness you're being cautious!! I don't add the collar until I KNOW he understands, and performs all commands given, though possible not at the 100% level. Then I add the collar, usually at the end of force fetch.

You use the collar much like a check cord; when introducing it, just tap it, like you would a small tug on a cc. First find the level the dog will work at. I let mine wear the collar for about two months before I use it on them. Every time they go out to play or work, I swing the collar around like a toy, get them jumping and excited, then put it on.
That is paramount so they don't get a bad impression of it.

When they are comfortable, find the level. While the dog is walking around and doing something else, starting at the lowest level, hit the stimulation button. If you see NO reaction, edge higher. When you get a reaction, like a twitch of his head, a small jerk, a step to the side, start training him at that level. Never start at a level so high it make him yip and jump.

Now, keeping him on a cc, start training him. Give him a command like HERE, and every third command, stimulate him BEFORE HE PERFORMS THE COMMAND. As soon as he starts toward you, release the button; he has in essence completed the command. If he stops on the way in, stimulate again until he comes promptly to you.

If he won't respond or goes the other way, up the intensity a level, always with the cc on him. If you stimulate him to hard, he'll drop the bird. Always work him on collar conditioning with no bird in his mouth. One problem at a time. Keep the first introductions all about obedience. Good Luck.

[4dabirds]

There is a lot to take into consideration with retrieving. First of all you have to take into consideration the motivation of the dog. Dogs being motivated to please themselves will do just that. Another thing is that retrieving to hand is a difficult concept for a dog to understand. The dog has to grasp the idea that although the dog wants to get the bird you want it to get it for you. When the dog goes after the bird and picks it up it is doing this out of instinct. So although we work our dog and marvel at the fact that we got the dog to do this we have nothing to do with it . So being that this comes naturally we expect that the dog understands the command and is only balking on the part of giving up the bird,when in reality the dog has done nothing for us. So if you want the dog to understand that he is to retrieve to hand only after you have commanded him to you need to break it down into micro steps of what it is in this behavior you expect. For one thing you only want the dog to retrieve after you command him to. This may sound simple but the problem with this is that dogs will anticipate your next move by the cue of the previous thing you did within the step and then act on that cue. An example of this is When you teach a dog to sit you raise your hand the dog looks up and then sits because he needs to to see the treat in your hand . After a few reps of this the dog may just see the treat and sit because he anticipates that you are going to raise your hand. This is called pre cue -cue. Through anticipation the pre-cue has become the cue. So the dog now is using these cues to perform the task. When you shoot the bird the the dog starts to anticipate the command by using the pre-cue The gun shot in this case to start on his retrieve. Not recognizing this causes you as the trainer to relate this to dis obedience and you correct the dog. The dog has done nothing wrong because this is a natural instinct in dogs. The correction has now caused the dog to become apprehensive and loses style because it does not understand the reason for correction. Every aspect of the retrieve has the potential to break down because of pre -cue ,cue When a dog is truly trained in a behavior, he understands what the trainer is expecting and the correction only at this time is meaningful to the dog. When a dog is force retrieved trained ,each aspect of the retrieve from holding something without letting it go until commanded , to the finished retrieve is broken down in small increments over what usually takes six weeks. It takes a lot of effort but it is necessary if you want the dog to have a flawless retrieve. If you do not do it you risk a breakdown in the program and are left without a mechanism for meaningful correction. It is a difficult process to put your dog through and to put your self through so either way you decide realize that the only way to guarantee a perfect retrieve is through force retrieve. If this dog were mine I would get the dog steady to wing and shot And only after this would I let the dog handle any more birds and this would be during the force retrieve training. Check out george Hickox web site there are some great articles that are published in major hunting magazine that will help you to understand the process of training as well as a great D.v.D on training pointing breeds. Also you mentioned your e-collar having a low and high setting. George uses a method of using the low setting as notification that the dog is going to be corrected. This method keeps the dog from becoming case hardened to the collar or rising in level because the anticipation of correction after the notifier makes the correction more meaningful. Good Luck.

[AG74]

Dashin', 4dabirds, and gonehuntin',

Thanks for your incredible insight, thoughts and advice on this topic - it is greatly appreciated. Thru conversations, PMs and this board, I think I've come up with a focused lesson plan for me and Blaze. Armed with some new insight on collar conditioning, I will start to train Blaze on Heel, then Whoa, then Here commands. When he responds reliably to those in varying environments, I will go back to some retrieve training, whereby he gets 1 in 5 or 8 or 10 retrieves, and only is released on command to retrieve. No electricity with retrieving (e-collar off). Then work him up to some fly away pigeons for steadiness per the instruction in the Perfection Kennels, Perfect Finish DVD. I will not use any electricity working around birds, either.

Does this sound like a realistic training plan? I have no set time period to accomplish this, just what feedback Blaze gives me.

I do have one question: most posters have said: "take your time with the training, no hurry on any of this." And that makes perfect sense to me. Everyone has said to not rush training and take him wild bird hunting this fall, regardless where he is at. BUT, if he is not at the desired level of obedience or steadiness by wild bird hunting season, will he develop bad habits that will be harder to fix for next year? For instance: parading with a killed bird instead of retrieving to hand, etc? He is a good dog and does really good around birds for the most part. I don't put any pressure of any sort on him in those live bird situations. And, I am not looking for a perfect retrieve, or perfect retriever. Just a dog who will find and point live birds, and will find and bring back killed or wing-shot birds.

Thanks again all for the great input, insight and advice,
Al

[Hattrick]

I am not looking for a perfect retrieve, or perfect retriever. Just a dog who will find and point live birds

well breed right you dont have to train for that its in there blood period, just give them exsposer, a good reliable retreive an being steady you have to train for period.. i guess it this can be done with out a ECollar but it will take a bit more time , if done right with a Ecollar you can have this done 12mths or less of age.. get help with using a ecollar

[birddog1968]

edit- mis-read.

I wait to train retrieve until they are nearly 2. Take the dog, go hunting and build the desire to hunt, then train the retrieve.

[live4point]

I came across a trick to get a dog to release a bird it is holding and doesn't want to give up.Gently grip the bird in the dogs mouth,dont pull on it,lift the dogs ear and blow in the dogs ear and the dog will release his grip and you can slip the bird right out! Sounds goofy but it works.We have a pet boxer that we found as a stray,she likes to play keep away with her ball and will hold the ball with a death grip.I tried this on her,it worked,and after a couple of times she would just readily release the ball at the thought of me blowing in her ear again.It seems that the air pressure to the ear makes the jaw release,you dont even have to blow hard.Found this trick in a training book written in the 1920's-Try it,it works!

[4dabirds]

I came across a trick to get a dog to release a bird it is holding and doesn't want to give up.Gently grip the bird in the dogs mouth,dont pull on it,lift the dogs ear and blow in the dogs ear and the dog will release his grip and you can slip the bird right out! Sounds goofy but it works.We have a pet boxer that we found as a stray,she likes to play keep away with her ball and will hold the ball with a death grip.I tried this on her,it worked,and after a couple of times she would just readily release the ball at the thought of me blowing in her ear again.It seems that the air pressure to the ear makes the jaw release,you dont even have to blow hard.Found this trick in a training book written in the 1920's-Try it,it works!

It depends on what the dog is holding and how motivated the dog is to hold it. What also works is pulling on the skin of the flank ,that loose skin between the dogs leg and stomach. The dog will open its mouth to stop you from pulling it. The more motivated the dog is to hold the object the harder you have to pull. It is a little more effective when maybe it is a chicken bone or something like it.

[live4point]

I came across a trick to get a dog to release a bird it is holding and doesn't want to give up.Gently grip the bird in the dogs mouth,dont pull on it,lift the dogs ear and blow in the dogs ear and the dog will release his grip and you can slip the bird right out! Sounds goofy but it works.We have a pet boxer that we found as a stray,she likes to play keep away with her ball and will hold the ball with a death grip.I tried this on her,it worked,and after a couple of times she would just readily release the ball at the thought of me blowing in her ear again.It seems that the air pressure to the ear makes the jaw release,you dont even have to blow hard.Found this trick in a training book written in the 1920's-Try it,it works!

It depends on what the dog is holding and how motivated the dog is to hold it. What also works is pulling on the skin of the flank ,that loose skin between the dogs leg and stomach. The dog will open its mouth to stop you from pulling it. The more motivated the dog is to hold the object the harder you have to pull. It is a little more effective when maybe it is a chicken bone or something like it.

Believe me,if our boxer will release a ball with this method,you can get a pitbull to release a steak using it,she is that serious.You try it,and then tell me how it works.

[AG74]

I actually had a trainer show me the blow in the ear trick. It worked when he did it, I guess I was not coordinated enough to pull it off! I've just been doing yard work with Blaze for the last couple weeks, specifically HERE and using the ecollar a little when neccessary. He will now HERE much more reliably. I've also started running backwards on the dummy retreiving, so that when we get back to fresh birds, he can correlate the training.

I think I will do some fly away pigeons to work steadiness first. When he is good at that, then work steady to a falling bird. Then kill one over him, but not let him retrieve it. Maybe toss it for him after I pick it up, like retrieving, and see how he does. I like the idea of "playing retreive" with a bird a few times, to let him know it's a game.

Does this sound like a good plan?

[4dabirds]

I came across a trick to get a dog to release a bird it is holding and doesn't want to give up.Gently grip the bird in the dogs mouth,dont pull on it,lift the dogs ear and blow in the dogs ear and the dog will release his grip and you can slip the bird right out! Sounds goofy but it works.We have a pet boxer that we found as a stray,she likes to play keep away with her ball and will hold the ball with a death grip.I tried this on her,it worked,and after a couple of times she would just readily release the ball at the thought of me blowing in her ear again.It seems that the air pressure to the ear makes the jaw release,you dont even have to blow hard.Found this trick in a training book written in the 1920's-Try it,it works!

It depends on what the dog is holding and how motivated the dog is to hold it. What also works is pulling on the skin of the flank ,that loose skin between the dogs leg and stomach. The dog will open its mouth to stop you from pulling it. The more motivated the dog is to hold the object the harder you have to pull. It is a little more effective when maybe it is a chicken bone or something like it.

Believe me,if our boxer will release a ball with this method,you can get a pitbull to release a steak using it,she is that serious.You try it,and then tell me how it works.

I did not say it would not work my point is that if you need to apply more pressure that is a little harder to do with blowing in the ear. Ill give you odds on that pit bull my friend jamal breeds them you will not get past the gate see how blowin in the ear works with that.

[4dabirds]

I actually had a trainer show me the blow in the ear trick. It worked when he did it, I guess I was not coordinated enough to pull it off! I've just been doing yard work with Blaze for the last couple weeks, specifically HERE and using the ecollar a little when neccessary. He will now HERE much more reliably. I've also started running backwards on the dummy retreiving, so that when we get back to fresh birds, he can correlate the training.

I think I will do some fly away pigeons to work steadiness first. When he is good at that, then work steady to a falling bird. Then kill one over him, but not let him retrieve it. Maybe toss it for him after I pick it up, like retrieving, and see how he does. I like the idea of "playing retreive" with a bird a few times, to let him know it's a game.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Dogs will revert back to what they know best or learned last when they are confused. I like to train whoa first and most so the worst problem you have is a dog that is still. They can not get into to much trouble standing still. If he learns here as his best command he may come to you during the training of other commands.

[jcbuttry8]

Retrieve is nice and a great tool to have your dog on, but pups are pups. Let them find the love of birds first and then train retrieve. I don't remember if this was the pups first time on birds. It may help to play fetch with a dead bird in a controlled back yard setting with a CC. A bumper is not a bird even with the scent on it. You will be shooting the birds, so train with birds. Unless you are hunting wild bumpers. If this is the case, please send video.

Joe

[gonehuntin']

My view of "drop" is that you never trick a dog to get what you want. Teach it drop when you say drop.

Blowing into a dog's ear or pinching the flank are great ways to get bit in the face.

I never work with my face anywhere near the business end of a dog.

[live4point]

You know,I thought about adding a disclaimer to the method I brought up,and in this day and age you almost have to.You would think that common sense would tell anyone not to use this method on a dog that has ever shown any inclination to nip or bite,but you really can't count on that anymore,kind of reminds me of the person that sued Mcdonalds because they spilled their coffee on themselves and then sued because it was too hot.Bird hunting used to be known as a gentlemans sport,and the people involved lived up to the tradition.I constantly see people try and talk down and belittle others on this board,trying to one up the next guy.Someone even had to use my joke of using it on a pitbull as ammunition.I don't really know where or why this attitude comes from nowdays,but I have seen the same kind of attitude in the field,I guess it's a different age now.I was honestly just trying to help a fellow dog man out,sharing something I had tried and knew worked,but now think I should have just kept it to myself and let the pro's on here handle it.

[gonehuntin']

.I was honestly just trying to help a fellow dog man out,sharing something I had tried and knew worked,but now think I should have just kept it to myself and let the pro's on here handle it.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just that when you work with a kennel full of dog's, you learn to be very cautious.

[AG74]

Retrieve is nice and a great tool to have your dog on, but pups are pups. Let them find the love of birds first and then train retrieve. I don't remember if this was the pups first time on birds. It may help to play fetch with a dead bird in a controlled back yard setting with a CC. A bumper is not a bird even with the scent on it. You will be shooting the birds, so train with birds. Unless you are hunting wild bumpers. If this is the case, please send video.

Joe

Joe,
Yes, BASICALLY his first time on birds. He was "started" with the breeder/trainer and the day I picked him up he was 9 months old and he pointed, held, and retrieved a pigeon back to the hand of the trainer. So I KNOW he can do it. I probably got a little too soft on him during some of his obedience training, and probably did something wrong in the course of tossing him bumpers so that now he drops the bumper right in front of me, not in my hand.... live and learn, I guess.

BUT, I've had him on pigeons and chukar a few times since I got him. He does everything good up to the point of him bringing the bird back to me. He fetches it up good, but parades around and is possessive of it. If I ignore "the game" and him, he will bring it in, but still wants to hold it.

Everyone has echoed your advice on taking him hunting a bunch this first year to build desire, learn from wild birds, let him be a puppy, etc, etc. And I don't disagree with that at all. BUT a lot of folks have also said NOT to let him develop a habit of keeping the birds, not retrieve well, etc, etc, because it will be harder to break down the road.... so that is a bit confusing to me. I realize he won't be perfect this first year AT ALL, and I don't expect it. And I don't expect him to be a perfect retreiver either, but don't want to waste time with him parading arond with a dead bird when there are more live one's to hunt. Maybe that will be something that will motivate him to let the dead one go: more live ones???

The dog is very intelligent and learns quickly, but is also very headstrong and independent, which are also good qualities, just a little harder to train.

So, I am going to keep working HERE, WHOA, and some fly away pigeons for steadiness. I think that I can make retreiving a killed bird a game, if I make it just like retreiving a bumper. THat is a lot of fun for him, so I think I can transfer that over to birds also. The REALLY complicating part of this is: he wants to roll all over any bird that isn't freshly killed. Like its a dead fish, or pile of p**p... So, I'm limited to fresh killed birds for that..

Thanks again to everyone for the great input on this. I'm not getting frustrated or anyhting and will just continue to let him be a hunting dog and puppy at the same time.

[4dabirds]

You know,I thought about adding a disclaimer to the method I brought up,and in this day and age you almost have to.You would think that common sense would tell anyone not to use this method on a dog that has ever shown any inclination to nip or bite,but you really can't count on that anymore,kind of reminds me of the person that sued Mcdonalds because they spilled their coffee on themselves and then sued because it was too hot.Bird hunting used to be known as a gentlemans sport,and the people involved lived up to the tradition.I constantly see people try and talk down and belittle others on this board,trying to one up the next guy.Someone even had to use my joke of using it on a pitbull as ammunition.I don't really know where or why this attitude comes from nowdays,but I have seen the same kind of attitude in the field,I guess it's a different age now.I was honestly just trying to help a fellow dog man out,sharing something I had tried and knew worked,but now think I should have just kept it to myself and let the pro's on here handle it.

Don't get your b.v.d.s in a bind no one was trying to one up you. You came up with an idea I came up with an idea. I agree they both work. Gonehuntin made a great point as well . This is a forum thats what people do. Just trying to add something to the conversation. By the way google urban legends and stella liebeck and the mcdonalds coffee case. Things are not always what you may think they are. As for the pit bulls i stand by that Jamals dogs are bad "bleep"!!!

[jcbuttry8]

I hope it all works out for you. Keep your head about you and you and your pup will be fine. you may just try keeping a short cord on the pup when in the field and keep your routine. When the pup goes to parade, gently pull her in with a here command. In time the pup will get it. Letting the pup hold the bird once he's in is not a bad thing. I use it as the reward. Love the heck out of him with the bird and then command release.

Joe

[AG74]

I hope it all works out for you. Keep your head about you and you and your pup will be fine. you may just try keeping a short cord on the pup when in the field and keep your routine. When the pup goes to parade, gently pull her in with a here command. In time the pup will get it. Letting the pup hold the bird once he's in is not a bad thing. I use it as the reward. Love the heck out of him with the bird and then command release.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I think you are right - he just needs to be a pup for a while. I think wild bird hunting will help him understand that there are going to be lots of birds to retrieve, so keeping one isn't really much of a reward. I probably got rushed and tried to get a bird away from him too quickly one time, because I "expected" him to just drop it in my hand. I'd seen him do that for his trainer, so thought that would be normal for him. Probably an unrealistic expectation on my part.

I do the bumpers more for steadiness than retrieving. He gets one in six, just so he understands he doesn't get to retrieve everything, all the time. I let him retrieve two in a row at the end as a fun reward and exercise. He is a GOOF on dead (not fresh) birds - he wants to roll on them like its a stinky dead fish or something. So I dont do retrieve training with dead birds anymore. I'll probably shoot one more pigeon for him sometime and then just play retrieve with him, but no hurry on that as far as I am concerned.

Al

[Scott Linden]

Boy...if you had fetching down, I mean DOWN, and then transitioned to birds and he did that I'd say that was blatant disobedience and would have corrected him immediately. If he was prancing around and I said COME and he didn't respond, he definitely would have gotten an e-collar reminder of who the boss was.

That's assuming the dog actually knows what he's doing. Have you attempted FF with an actual bird yet?

Just to be clear - you'd e-collar him while he had a bird in his mouth?