Best way for changing pup's attitude

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Lukenbill
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Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Lukenbill » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:57 pm

The title of this post comes off a bit harsh. Overall, I really can't complain about the level of training my pup has managed despite my lack of training skills. There is however one nagging issue I would like to address as soon as possible.

Rigley is now a 9 month old female ESS. She knows and will follow commands in most situations, however the lack of consistency is a starting to show as a problem. So far all of my training, other than correction with a check cord has been based on praise and rewards (treats or usually just pieces of her dog food). The general issue is that she is starting to develop a "what's in it for me" type of mentality. If she see's reward potential, she's there on the spot. If she doesn't she may have better things to do.

I've purchased a e-collar and for now I'm not even turning it on, just letting her get used to it being snug around her neck. My thought is that I would like to use it only in extreme situations after I have properly introduced her to training with the e-collar.

So that leads to the main 2 part question: What is the proper way to get her more excited about following my commands and doing them because she wants to keep me happy rather than just her reward? What is the proper age/maturity level to start introducing your pup to an e-collar? (I realize I'll get the full spectrum of answers on this, so if you can, include your reasoning) On that note, she is a pretty strong willed pup overall an has proved to be pretty resilient in most all situations.

Thank you in advance for all of your help.

kensfishing
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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by kensfishing » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:03 pm

Forget the treats. Start training the dog to obey a command and praise it when it goes right.

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AG74
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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by AG74 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:24 pm

I'm basically in the same situation as you, except I got my GWP at 9 months old as a "started" dog and have had him for three months. He knew HERE well when I got him and WHOA pretty well also. I did all the other obedience with treats/clicker, which helped him learn them well, but just like you, when something is a bigger distractor than a treat, he paid no attention to my command.

I read up on proper use of e-collar and collar conditioning and have started using it for HERE. My dog has a low level (20 out of 127 on my collar) when he is not distracted. BUT, had to bump it to almost 40 this AM when I called him HERE and he was distracted by something.

Not sure if I did that right or not, but read about the "jump" feature on some collars, instead of a gradual increase of stim which does not work well on a distracted dog, and only makes them case hardened. Hickox' website has a couple good articles on it, and I am waiting for his pointing dog DVD. He did come finally, but was rather distracted and I had to use the check-cord in combination with the collar stim.

Read up on e-collar conditioning and proper use and I think it will work for you. Let us know how it goes. I'm in your boat too. Good luck

Al

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:59 pm

I start puppies at 6 weeks with clicker training. For me it does two things, it gets some behaviors i want with VERY immature pups and it teaches them to learn. Clickers and treats are often over used in young dogs and at 8 mos old they should be transfered to verbal commands. Remember, treats should be given sporadically once you are given the behavior you want, only a treat after 3-5-7 correct behaviors. The click marks it as correct and there does not have to be a treat. A correction is opposite, it must be administered every time a dog does not do what you ask of it when you are sure it recognizes the behavior it is being asked for. Transfer the behaviors that the dog has 80-90% correct to the e-collar at their age and eliminate the negotiation.

Clickers are a starter point in gun dog training, they are not employed at all when I get to bird work other than in a couple of FF cases I struggled with (and this is only because I am not that good at FF) Refer to Hickox website or Gary Wilkes, they both represent and understand that positive "treat training" is limited in its scope and effectiveness with gun dogs and their articles will keep your usage of it in perspective.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by troutbum13 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:07 pm

It obviously depends on the dog, but 9 months is still a pup...I like to let my dogs have a season under their belt before I start asking them for too much. The trick is that I expect them to be a stupid pup for a whole year, and so I don't try and handle them and give them commands right and left. If I am doing something that requires me to handle or control the dog to a high degree, they are on a CC where I can enforce the command and make sure they don't blow me off.

That being said.

In my experience, a lot of casual dog trainers resist the ecollar until they are frustrated with the dog. Then they take that frustration and light the dog up. This may work with some dogs, but more often it goes sideways.

The ecollar works best when it is not a method of last resort. Once conditioned, use the collar to re-enforce easy commands (kennel, come). Once you have that foundation then you have room to increase the correction as the dog understands the relationship between the collar and the commands.

Clicker training and operant training are great and have a place, but I don't see a lot people using clickers and treats to handle a dog 200 yards out all amp'ed up on the smell of a rabbit or a deer.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:26 pm

Any decent working dog with independence and confidence will appear strong willed. I wouldn't want it any other way.
It's a good thing.

Never give a command you can't enforce whether that means getting off the couch, using a check cord or an e-collar. Be CONSISTENT. The dog has to know that if it disobeys there will be a followup - ALWAYS.

A dog does want to please and a reward would be great , but the dog has to obey because you gave the command , not for a treat.

( Clicker training is very useful for a pup. Teaches things fast.)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Lukenbill
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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Lukenbill » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:53 pm

I'll definitely do some more reading up on e collars before I start using and I definitely agree that some people definitely overuse their shock collar. I think some of what I might be up against is the fact that she's not a gun dog first...we bought her as a family pet, but both Rigley and I have both enjoyed her training and gun dog work. It's something I want to take seriously and do it right, even if she never ends up completely finished.

Thank you all for your ideas and I think I'll maybe try taking a step back to the check cord for a while so we can cement the necessity to always follow a command.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:45 pm

I agree with chucker 12 and Sharon about clicker training. I would like to add that you have an issue of motivation. A dog is motivated to please itself. There will never be a time in your dogs life that it's actions will be for you. The dog is not hunting for anyone but the dog. The dog will follow cues in it's environment to get what the dog wants. If a dog is trained with food as a reward exclusively and the food is present the dog will not perform when the food is not present. When doing clicker training the food should be hidden from view. The dog should be motivated to train. "hungry" do not feed dog the night before and you will see the motivation to perform rise. This may be pleasing to you but the dog is not trying to please you it is just motivated. If you train your dog with the idea that the dog is motivated to please itself and find ways to get what you want through that motivation you will be working with the dogs nature instead of fighting against it. As an example push down on tor dogs head and try to get the dog to stay this way. The dog will fight you all day long. With clicker training once the dog understands the game you would click on that behavior and the dog will respond quickly because the behavior benefits the dog. When the dog is properly clicker trained the dog is offering behaviors for the reward without being compelled. This gives you an enthusiastic dog that approaches training ready to perform only because it benefits the dog. To properly clicker train you should start with base loading the dog just click and treat a bunch of treats so the dog associates the click with reward. Once the dog makes the association switch to target training . With target training you use a target a soda bottle works fine hold it in your hand when the dog sniffs it click and treat the dog. After a period of time the dog will be doing this over and over. Then switch bottle to groundsels drill then two bottles. With two bottles you can chose to click on the bottle you want treat and say eh eh for the other. This gives you a mechanism to dis allow a behavior with out correction since you are just teaching at this point.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by MikeB » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:40 pm

One important fact that was not addressed here is that at 9 months old is the start of what is known as the "teenage" stage. They may know exacly what you want them to do but will test YOU if you really mean it. If they can get away with not obeying they will, just like a teenager. YOU and all that have anything to do with the dog need to be very firm and fair with him. Don't give commands you can't inforce. NO OFF LEASH COMMANDS!

One of the quickest ways to solve these attitude issues is not just during training sessions it's 100% of the time. It's a 24/7 change in how your raising him. Especially if he is a house dog too.

Here are two articles that will help you understand ways to help him get through this stage of growing up. It's not with using electronic collars but going back to good old basics using positive re-inforcement. Set the dog up to win and get praise and not corrections. He will figure it out pretty fast when you follow the program.

Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF) - http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Who's In Charge Here - http://www.cowdogz.com/tips/alpha.html

Your welcome to write me if you have any questions. E-mail.... thedogtrainer@yahoo.com

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by kensfishing » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:12 pm

I've said it all along. It's positive, negative reinforcement. The more positive the better. It's a command not a request.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by nikegundog » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:45 pm

Lukenbill wrote:I'll definitely do some more reading up on e collars before I start using and I definitely agree that some people definitely overuse their shock collar. I think some of what I might be up against is the fact that she's not a gun dog first...we bought her as a family pet, but both Rigley and I have both enjoyed her training and gun dog work. It's something I want to take seriously and do it right, even if she never ends up completely finished.

Thank you all for your ideas and I think I'll maybe try taking a step back to the check cord for a while so we can cement the necessity to always follow a command.
Hopefully a pro will back me on this... I see more often than not the e collars are underused in the field by new trainers. I have been in the field countless times when a guy has told me I never touched the button all day, when I saw 20 opportunities for a correction. The e collar is an extention of the check cord and should be used that way. Learn how to use it, then don't be afraid to use it.

kensfishing
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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by kensfishing » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Not using an e collar is like going hunting with a gun and not taking ammo. It's a tool, use and learn to use it right. Still trying to get Tony to use it quicker, he still hasn't got it. Maybe have to put it on him instead of Danner.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by 4dabirds » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:27 pm

MikeB wrote:One important fact that was not addressed here is that at 9 months old is the start of what is known as the "teenage" stage. They may know exacly what you want them to do but will test YOU if you really mean it. If they can get away with not obeying they will, just like a teenager. YOU and all that have anything to do with the dog need to be very firm and fair with him. Don't give commands you can't inforce. NO OFF LEASH COMMANDS!

One of the quickest ways to solve these attitude issues is not just during training sessions it's 100% of the time. It's a 24/7 change in how your raising him. Especially if he is a house dog too.

Here are two articles that will help you understand ways to help him get through this stage of growing up. It's not with using electronic collars but going back to good old basics using positive re-inforcement. Set the dog up to win and get praise and not corrections. He will figure it out pretty fast when you follow the program.

Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF) - http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Who's In Charge Here - http://www.cowdogz.com/tips/alpha.html. Fight flight fakery freeze these are strategies that dogs use to get what they want . The concept that dogs are dominant or submissive is and has been proven false. The idea that an animal that has evolved over thousands of years can be beaten at it's own game is silly. If a dog nudges you for something and you ignore it it becomes an ineffective strategy and the dog will try something else to get shat it wants. Either the dog will find an effective strategy or will give up . This may extinguish the behavior but has nothing to do with alpha mentality. It is just a simple as itsounds the dog tried something it did not work it gave up. You did not dominate your dog. No free lunch works " NFL" because the dog learns thT to get something it has to give something . It is about motivation not alpha dominance. The only thing alpha dominance mentality does is to have trainers misinterperate behaviors and motivation of dogs and cause dogs to be corrected when they do not need to be. Dogs are pack animals and social beings that is why their domestication is so successful. This does not mean that humans can communicate with them at their level. What we can do with great success isunderstsnd their behavior for what it really is and use it to benefit our means. Learn and understand what motivates dogs and you will become an more effective trainer. Read the book culture clash by Jean Donaldson it explains in depth why alpha mentality in training is an ineffective way to look at dogs with some. Information about scientific studies that prove this.





Your welcome to write me if you have any questions. E-mail.... thedogtrainer@yahoo.com

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by gittrdonebritts » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:17 am

The dog is young yet and ready to replace treats with praise/and birds, I agree with chuckar the Clicker training in the very beginning is a good way to get them started and I agree with 4dabirds that a dog is and always will be a self pleaser but we have many different ways to shape that into to working for us. Not knocking Clicker training since I use it for obedience training house dogs, but I'd rather not use treats at all for a reward for a gun dog why not get them excited about birds early and use that as a reward for as much of the training as possible ?
JMO

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4dabirds
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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by 4dabirds » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:44 pm

gittrdonebritts wrote:The dog is young yet and ready to replace treats with praise/and birds, I agree with chuckar the Clicker training in the very beginning is a good way to get them started and I agree with 4dabirds that a dog is and always will be a self pleaser but we have many different ways to shape that into to working for us. Not knocking Clicker training since I use it for obedience training house dogs, but I'd rather not use treats at all for a reward for a gun dog why not get them excited about birds early and use that as a reward for as much of the training as possible ?
JMO
Clicker training is notification why not start with basic obedience and carry the notification into bird work click reward, click treat , click bird. It is all the same and creates continuity. Obviously birds will be the greatest motivator for a bird dog above and beyond food . Sometimes it is not possible or practical to work with birds food is the next best thing to increase motivation especially if the dog is hungry.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by gittrdonebritts » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:53 pm

I'm just set in my ways and won't use food when training bird dogs, I do use it(clicker) for Obedience on house dogs and such. not downing you or nothing just how i do and and I've had a good bit of success doing it. My only problem with people using treats is that most don't know how to phase it out and replace it with verbal or physical praise that's when you get people saying my dog won't do Jack squat unless I have treats for him.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Lukenbill » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:51 pm

Thank you for everyone suggestions. I went back to check cord training and that seems to be doing the trick. We are now to the point where she does pretty good without treats and minimal corrections.

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Re: Best way for changing pup's attitude

Post by Winchey » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:46 am

gittrdonebritts wrote:I'm just set in my ways and won't use food when training bird dogs, I do use it(clicker) for Obedience on house dogs and such. not downing you or nothing just how i do and and I've had a good bit of success doing it. My only problem with people using treats is that most don't know how to phase it out and replace it with verbal or physical praise that's when you get people saying my dog won't do Jack squat unless I have treats for him.
You also get a lot of people who say their dog won't do jack squat unless the collar is on, same thing. Just a lot of people don't know what they are doing out there. (including me half the time) It doesn't matter what methods you use, if you execute those methods poorly you will have a poorly trained dog.

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