Wild birds v. Launchers

[cpinkert]

Or both?

I'm debating whether to spend $500 on a couple launchers and a couple hundred more on birds over the next month or so to help my 7.5 month old britt female develop her point. I live in Duluth, MN and can get her out in the woods 4-6 days a week and it seems like every time we're out she kicks up a grouse...yesterday she kicked up 3 in an hour and a half when I took her to some land that had a bunch of grouse last year.

In my post in the Wanted section where I'm looking for launchers, a couple guys asked why I would want launchers when I have access to wild birds.

What do you all think?

I understand the value of wild birds, but I also understand the value of the control launchers allow. Do I spend the money on launchers and birds or gas to get to wild birds?

[volraider]

I would run her on wild birds this hunting season, no shooting birds unless she points them, then break her before next season. I would use pigeons and launchers to break her.

[gonehuntin']

It's far, far, easier to train a dog with launchers, then finish them on wild birds. With launchers, you know EXACTLY where the bird is and can work the dog in accordingly. You have total control of the bird and number of birds at the location and when they will flush. You can teach steadiness and the honor with launchers.

It's true that you can teach all this with wild birds as well, but it takes a heck of a lot longer and is far more frustrating.

[DGFavor]

I would run her on wild birds this hunting season, no shooting birds unless she points them

Ditto. Heck, I'd do that for the rest of her life!

Fill up the tank, strap on your boots and let her learn her job doing her job....unless her job is gonna be following your footsteps to point birds in steel cages of course.

[cpinkert]

For the folks advocating just running her on wild birds, don't you think proper use of a launcher would speed up the process with her? I'm thinking doing a mix of the launcher and getting her in the woods on wild birds. The launcher would allow me to introduce the shotgun in a controlled manner and it would significantly increase the number of bird contacts she's have this fall...hopefully allowing me to shoot a few birds over her this fall rather than letting them all fly as she develops her point in the woods.

[Kiki]

I've been running my 10month EP on wild birds at a minimum of once a week since she was 3 mos old. She has at least 5 seperate finds on each occassion. Because of this she has become a pretty good bird finder, but also because of this she no longer points. As she matures I know I will have to use launchers to get her to start pointing and to steady her. Wild birds are great but too much may create other issues you may have to solve later.

[nj gsp]

There is no substitute for wild birds. My shorthair did not steady up on point until she bumped her 3rd grouse, and she's been solid since then.

What launchers do better than wild birds is they give you complete control - you decide when the bird flushes, not the bird. That is definitely an advantage in a training situation.

[volraider]

you have an 8 month old puppy she's not probably not ready to break. Her time needs to be spent learning to hunt and find birds. If you did your homework and bought a pup from a good breeding then she will start pointing wild birds on her own.

[madduckdog]

I am no expert and don't have enough wild birds to try the wild bird thing.... but here is my thinkin.

use pigeons.
If you mess up you migh not mess up her love for game birds.

not being a pro I am not sure when I can presure (push the button ) a dog on wild birds ..but pigeons can create a controled enviorment maybe even presure condition after a flush ie stop to flush.

pigeons will show the dog what you expect with little risk.

good luck

[cpinkert]

I get what the wild bird folk are saying, and if the woods weren't so dang thick right now that's probably the way that I'd be leaning. However, I can't see a thing when she's back in the woods. She doesn't seem to have trouble finding the birds and doesn't chase them after they flush, but I don't know what she's doing leading up to the bird flushing because I haven't been able to see her in the thick cover prior to a bird getting up. That, and I'd like her to be started on her pointing BEFORE hunting season so that I can actually kill some birds for her this fall rather than have to let them fly for the first couple/ten trips or whatever it takes her to actually start pointing.

I'm a rookie to this all, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean by break her, but I'm really only planning on using the launcher and pigeons to pound home the ideas that: 1) she can't catch the birds; 2) she needs to stop on first scent or the bird will bust; and 3) if she stops on first scent, I will go in and flush the bird and kill it and she gets the reward of handling the bird. As long as her bird drive remains high I would think using a launcher to teach these lessons would quicken the process considerably over just letting her learn on wild birds? Am I wrong?

[gonehuntin']

You are not wrong. Look at it this way: When you train her at home on launchers, she's going through high school. You can only teach her so much. When you work wild birds this fall, she'll get a degree. Teach the basics first so she knows what you expect of her, finish her in the woods. No great bird dog was ever made on launchers only.

[Kiki]

cpinkert, I started a thread similar to this earlier this year. Here's the link, viewtopic.php?f=89&t=27610&p=253592&hil ... re#p253592.

[cpinkert]

That was a good read, Kiki. Thanks!

What I took from the discussion you linked to is that she'll point when she's good and ready...and letting her develop that "naturally" rather than "breaking" her is preferable due to her age. I still think I'm gonna get the launcher and use a combination of pigeons in a launcher and wild birds to hopefully speed along the process! I don't see how more bird contacts could ever be a bad thing if done in the correct manner.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

The key is patience let the dog progress at his own rate don't try to rush things or you will create problems you will regret.Don't over do the launcher thing a few birds a day is enough.

[cpinkert]

Got it. This all makes a lot of sense, now. All I really want from this all is to get her pointing as quickly as she can (keeping in mind she's still an infant) and I might eventually use the launcher to help encourage her to trust her nose and go a little further from the trail or from me if she smells something.

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

-Chris

[Vision]

Pigeons, launchers, pen raised birds etc are all substitutes for wild birds.


Wild birds all the way.

[volraider]

This is her first hunting season so she needs to learn how to hunt and where to hunt to find wild birds. Wild birds will teach her to point, it may take 25 birds or it may take 100 just depends on pointing instinct but once she starts pointing then you will be ready for launcher work. I have worked pups both ways and letting them learn on wild birds before starting the formal training seems to work best for me.

[h&t]

I would run her on wild birds this hunting season, no shooting birds unless she points them, then break her before next season. I would use pigeons and launchers to break her.

Just me 2 cents (I am a newbie too). I think the above is very good advice (in a very short form).
Basically, what others have said - let the dog learn from the best teachers - wild birds.
With launchers there's always a chance (almost a guarantee for a first timer) to screw something up.
You have to accept that the first season you're not hunting - you're taking the dog out and you have to be prepared to hold your fire and do what's the best for the dog. Once the leaves are down you'll see the dog better and you'll get a chance to shoot a bird for her. I'd say - don't hesitate and shoot a bird the first chance you get - even a flash point.
Even a ground bird
That helps the dog understanding that you have the power to kill birds for her and you work as a team.

[brad27]

Pigeons, launchers, pen raised birds etc are all substitutes for wild birds.


Wild birds all the way.

Yes, but the control is nice. Tends to shorten up the process. We could train without ecollars, but why bother.

[volraider]

I'm by know means a pro trainer but for me the natural progression for a bird dog is to learn to come to you, learn to find birds, learn what's productive cover, and then learn to be steady on birds. Launchers are a very important part of training but they first have to learn to hunt for birds and it may not take a whole season but once you start formal training you don't hunt until you are done and thats why I say you need to let her hunt wild birds. Once she starts pointing and you kill a few for her then put her on launchers and train her. When you start training you start taking the fun out of it for the dog so thats why you build the pup during their puppy stage so the desire is there to train. If she's bred right wild bird hunting will make your formal training easier and faster.

[gonehuntin']

Launchers are NO substitute for wild birds, NOR do they inhibit a dog's ability to find wild birds. Good Grief. What they DO is to teach the dog's HOW to handle a bird in the yard. For you guys that run only on wild birds, try a launcher sometime; they decrease training time tremendously and in no way inhibit the development of a bird dog.

[Trekmoor]

I've trained Brits, G.S.P.s and a pointer (English) without ever using bird launchers. I didn't even know such things existed until a couple of years ago. I just worked the pups on wild birds - partridge, pheasants and grouse mainly until they pointed and held the point. Every pup I did this with was holding point by about 6 months of age. The birds themselves did most of the teaching, I was just there to let the pups loose. I think this is the best way to go but only if sufficient wild game is available and maybe only if you can take the pup out on wild game several times per week. Sometimes I hunted the pups twice in one day.

I've not got the game readily available any more and I'm getting too "bleep" old to walk miles now so I am thinking of buying my first ever bird launcher. You folk over the pond are lucky ......... you should see the prices being asked for bird launchers in the U.K. !

Bill T.

[Vision]

In the 70's I trained on wild birds only= plenty of wild birds to train on close by. Pheasants out the back door.
In the 80's I started using pen raised birds= not as many wild birds to train on, and the areas were too close to roads, houses, etc.
In the 90's bought launchers= no wild birds within a 2 hour drive.

[Vagabondo de Deserto]

Good advice here. If I could add one thing it would be that your hound will know the difference between caged roof rats game and wild birds. So I see the wild birds to be essential for the training

Cheers Amigo's

[Hattrick]

If you use lauchers you CAN train every day in ur back yard short little steady drills. If you stay at it in 2 weeks she should be fairly steady, wild birds then will just polish it. I'm thinking ur steady means to shot not fall, even so the foundation will be layed well with traps due to the # of controlled reps.. good luck

[nj gsp]

Yup that's the idea - train your dog in a controlled situation with launchers, finish off the training on wild birds - if wild birds are available.

[4dabirds]

In the 70's I trained on wild birds only= plenty of wild birds to train on close by. Pheasants out the back door.
In the 80's I started using pen raised birds= not as many wild birds to train on, and the areas were too close to roads, houses, etc.
In the 90's bought launchers= no wild birds within a 2 hour drive.

Thats a pretty sad statement. I have to travel 45 minutes just to train on pen raised birds .I used to have wild pheasants a mile from my house.

Launchers are NO substitute for wild birds, NOR do they inhibit a dog's ability to find wild birds. Good Grief. What they DO is to teach the dog's HOW to handle a bird in the yard. For you guys that run only on wild birds, try a launcher sometime; they decrease training time tremendously and in no way inhibit the development of a bird dog.

+ 1 I would add never just see what might happen guarantee the outcome. You can do that with launchers.

[K9luke]

You are not wrong. Look at it this way: When you train her at home on launchers, she's going through high school. You can only teach her so much. When you work wild birds this fall, she'll get a degree. Teach the basics first so she knows what you expect of her, finish her in the woods. No great bird dog was ever made on launchers only.

Well said and TRUE !
Training and hunting are two different things. You have a lot of controll over training situations but out hunting the dog has to think for itself and make it's own decisions. Teach the dog what you can with live birds and let the wild birds do the rest.