To Hunt or Not to Hunt??

[shootfor25]

At 8 months old, my GSP is disobeying commands. On the checkcord he does well....but let him off and he doesnt listen. He took off across the fields today and would not come back for anything...and I didnt want to continue to give a command I could not reinforce. Finally he came back...but boy was it frustrating! I put him back on the CC and he was back to listening. After speaking with some other guys in the area, they suggested that I not hunt him this fall and leave him home. Their reasoning is that if he is not listening off the cc....hunting season will not be anything but frustrating...or even dangerous for the pup. Does anyone have any insight into this issue...should I hunt him like I want to....or leave him home as suggested by others? This is still all new to me so I am just wanting to hear what different perspectives are!

[Born2Hunt]

Sounds to me like he is ready for the shock collar.

[shootfor25]

I just purchased a collar, but I have not used it. I have put it on him while i was working on retrieving or when just playing in the yard.....just so he didnt associate anything negative with it. I want to start using it....I just dont want to rush it. Others have been telling me that the collar will not make a difference before the season starts...so basically they have told me that my pup is a lost cause for this season.

[Sharon]

I don't agree with that. Pup needs to be learning from wild birds this Fall (You shooting them is not a priority.)

Transition from the CC to the correction collar this week even. You say he knows what come means. Just use it for that for now and be prepared to use it higher if he takes off after a deer.

Take him with you. Enjoy.

[shootfor25]

Thanks Sharon, I appreciate the advice.

I like to think that he knows come....but when off the CC he does not obey 100% of the time.....so people tell me, "well if the recall is not 100%...your pup doesnt know COME."

[Born2Hunt]

The collar is just a long extension of the cc start off low and increase when you need to. I agree with Sharon get that dog on birds even if you don't shoot them.

[bwjohn]

sounds like you have the makings of a good hunter, just get him under control. the ecollar is a good first start and if you do not know how to use it correctly maybe you could get someone close by to help you.


On the hunting this season: I think it is the best thing that you could do, especially if you have a good place to get him on wild birds. nothing bad is going to happen, don't take your gun and let him work the birds however he does. it will be some invaluable lessons that he will learn.

brandon

[shootfor25]

I hope he has the makings of a good hunter...he definitely has the prey drive and has one heck of a nose on him.

I do have some good places to take him hunting. I am lucky enough to have the rights to manage a 1500 acre wheat farm with lots of CRP...and if the spring was good on the birds....wild birds for him to get into. Last season the pheasant were everywhere....and now that I am managing the land....I get to control who hunts and how many people I give permission to.

[Garrison]

Hunting is fun but hunting with your dog even more so. I doubt that your family is going to go without because you didn't bring home as many birds as you normally do, so who cares if he bust birds his first season. He is shurely not going to get any better in his kennel. A lot can change through a hunting season, especially one that has not started yet. My Grandfather had a little setter that he brought to South Dakota with him one year that was raw she drug around the heaviest check cord he could find for two days over in the next area code. Day 3 she decided it was more fun to hunt with the rest of the group. Two days of busted birds paid off over the next ten years. He is to old school to use a e-collar or bother with lots of yard work just tie a couple more knots in that rope. They were by no means polished trial dogs but they found pointed and retrieved lots and lots of birds. I am not saying this is the go to method or even advisable but exposure and patience always worked for him. A bad day of fishing is just a good boat ride with the right attitude.

[Khooxo]

How much of his training is done on the CC? Sounds to me like you do a lot of it on the CC if he takes off when it's off. Find a fenced in area, take off the CC and start his training again. Seems to me he has associated the CC as boring time and off the CC as reward time. Basically like a kid getting to go to the mall if he finishes his homework. CC's are nice and all but you don't want to overuse it and it should only (ofcourse it's situation dependant) be used when the dog (pre CC) isn't listening at all.

[4dabirds]

Your playing with fire using an ecollar
on this dog if the dog does not respond to a command 8 of 10 times the dog does not understand the command fully. Dogs are place oriented this means they need to learn things in different environments. This is called generalization . Go to George hickox website and read his previously published articles . He is one of the top pros in the country.

[Crestonegsp]

Sounds like he needs to learn simple commands heel, here, whoa. You can not use an e-collar on a dog that does not know the commands. Start with a short lead and work on the three basic commands heel, here and whoa and move to a checkcord until he is reliable.

He is 8 months old and just a kid, give him some time to learn and have fun before you jump on him with both feet.

[Ruffshooter]

Couple things. If you have been working with this pup on the cc for the here or come command and does well, and you know the pup understands it you are ready for tranistioning to the ecollar. Before Ruby, I never had to use an ecollar for the here command but it worked quickly because the dog was already conditioned to the point of contacts I had created with the cc. The collar was used as a que, on occasion I had to increase the intensity when she had a mind about something. I will hunt her with the collar this year and transition away from it next year.

Second over the years, I have found that letting the pup hunt and run with out restraint or constant nagging, that they will start to hunt with me or at least around. I always use a bell or beeper so I know where they are or last were. Before the e collar I would keep a stiff non-knotted 20'-0" cc on the dog. Just so I could grab it when they went by. :roll:

Anyway, with a properly introduced e-collar, I would do it. I do, do it. At least where you are away from roads and such. Safety.

[Garrison]

The last two posters gave sound advice in my opinion, I saw an interview with the top cover dog pro Dave Hughes, he said working a dog full time it takes 5 years to complete a dog how he wants it. If you agree with what has worked very very well for him, you are not even 1/5 of the way to having a completely finished dog. Make sure you read the articles that the other posted, specially on collar conditioning. My uncle who is a very knowledgeable trainer who has finish many dogs got a new single remote collar system for multiple dogs and wacked the wrong dog while on a very nice point because mixed up the buttons, the dog is very smart and understood the correction well, (don't point birds no problem, hasn't since and that was six months ago). I also agree that the e-collar is a very effective tool when used properly. By properly I mean not a push button robot dog.

[adogslife]

The dog does not know the commands off lead.
Why don't you teach him?

[terrym]

I would be introducing the collar myself. Think of it as an extension of the CC and only use it to reinforce what he "knows" already.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Shootfor 25,
If your dog knows and understand his commands on the CC it's time to introduce the T&B Collar, have someone teach you how to use the collar correctly, do your yard work with the dog, make sure he understands the required commands and obeys them. After that start your field training, once the dog understand that the master has long arms he will become obedient in the field and forest. Make sure you the master understand how to correctly use the collar prior to working with it.
RGD/Dave

[gonehuntin']

Shootfor 25,
If your dog knows and understand his commands on the CC it's time to introduce the T&B Collar, have someone teach you how to use the collar correctly, do your yard work with the dog, make sure he understands the required commands and obeys them. After that start your field training, once the dog understand that the master has long arms he will become obedient in the field and forest. Make sure you the master understand how to correctly use the collar prior to working with it.
RGD/Dave

+1. That's it in a nutshell. If the dog is solid on leash, collar condition him, and proof him off leash.

I want the dog, at his age, to know three commands going into hunting season: HERE, NO, WHOA. That's it. Of the three, HERE and NO are the most important. If he is 99.9% on HERE and NO, you'll have a fun time with him this year.

[shootfor25]

The dog does not know the commands off lead.
Why don't you teach him?

Why dont I teach him? I am pretty sure that is what I am going for....just looking for some insight from others who have been where I am.


Gonehuntin' and Ryman:
I have heard this suggestion from a few people. I have not rushed into the ecollar just because I dont want to introduce it in the wrong way. As for his commands...after my initial post yesterday I was out with my pup...off the CC....and he recalled 100% of the time. He understands NO and I am working on whoa....he will hold for 5 minutes sometimes....but upon initial command of WHOA he sometimes takes a few steps and then stops.

I appreciate all the advice...very helpful!

[troutbum13]

I have seen more harm done by hunters who throw the e-collar on for the first time when they are hunting. Collar condition in the yard. Evan Graham has a youtube video showing how to collar condition with using come, a CC and a e-collar. e-collars need to be transitioned, use both in the yard until he is complying without the CC. Then work in the yard with just the e-collar until he is 100% in the yard. Then you can hunt him with the e-collar.

[ezzy333]

My advice is take him hunting but only by yourself. Don't let the pup ruin someone elses hunt. And then you can decide when and where to shoot and can spend what time is needed training when the pup messes up. And get the collar on him!

Ezzy

[adogslife]

I don't think he is listening on the cc, instead only controlled by it, giving the impression of obeying.
Put him on a 100' cc, hook it up to the one you are currently using.
Do the suggested CCing by Evan Graham.
Use the ecollar to enforce. Right now, he doesn't know he's supposed to obey off lead.

[Sharon]

Thanks Sharon, I appreciate the advice.

I like to think that he knows come....but when off the CC he does not obey 100% of the time.....so people tell me, "well if the recall is not 100%...your pup doesnt know COME."

That sounds like a good saying but i think it's ............ Start with the e-collar on come.

[shags]

There's a big difference between knowing a command and complying with it. Your pup is at the age to test you, to gain independence and to rebel a bit. It's an entirely normal phase, and IMO any dog that doesn't go through it isn't the kind of dog I'd want.

An ecollar is the long arm of the law. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to use it, and you don't need to overthink it. It's just a tool and nothing to be nervous about. There's plenty of info online and probably in the box your collar came in about how to use it. The folks who mess up their dogs with an ecollar didn't use it properly; except for trashbreaking, use the lowest setting you can to get the response you want.

[gonehuntin']

Remember that it is very easy to abuse an ecollar. Keep the stimulus low and follow a good dvd like Evan's. You'll be just fine. An ecollar used to be a most difficult tool to use. Then came variable intensity. Yippeee!

[bwjohn]

I am lucky enough to have the rights to manage a 1500 acre wheat farm with lots of CRP...and if the spring was good on the birds....wild birds for him to get into. Last season the pheasant were everywhere....and now that I am managing the land....I get to control who hunts and how many people I give permission to.

just give me directions up an i will be happy to help you teach here/come or whatever else you want, Utah is not that far.

brandon

[Sharon]

Sounds to me like he is ready for the shock collar.

If we want to continue to have the use of an e-collar in Canada/USA , lets not call it a shock collar. How about training collar/ correction collar.
England/Wales has lost this privilege and we could all be in that boat if we aren't careful.

[Ruffshooter]

It is always us that have to watch how we speak or the terms we use never the %%^#^^@%$# liberal idiots. I am so sick of all of them. Look at where they have done to us where they have put us all. Just leave us alone!!!! Sorry for the Rant.

[Bird Dog 67]

Sounds to me like he is ready for the shock collar.

If we want to continue to have the use of an e-collar in Canada/USA , lets not call it a shock collar. How about training collar/ correction collar.
England/Wales has lost this privilege and we could all be in that boat if we aren't careful.

This post just shows that they're already winning. It is what it is and playing the PC game isn't going to change anybody's mind. JMHO

[GUNDOGS]

I am lucky enough to have the rights to manage a 1500 acre wheat farm with lots of CRP...and if the spring was good on the birds....wild birds for him to get into. Last season the pheasant were everywhere....and now that I am managing the land....I get to control who hunts and how many people I give permission to.

just give me directions up an i will be happy to help you teach here/come or whatever else you want, Utah is not that far.

brandon

utah's only a 30 hour drive for me, 1500 acres, IM IN TOO ...ruth

[ezzy333]

Sounds to me like he is ready for the shock collar.

If we want to continue to have the use of an e-collar in Canada/USA , lets not call it a shock collar. How about training collar/ correction collar.
England/Wales has lost this privilege and we could all be in that boat if we aren't careful.

This post just shows that they're already winning. It is what it is and playing the PC game isn't going to change anybody's mind. JMHO

It may show they are winning but on this one I agree with them. The e-collars used to be "shock collars" but they are not today so why use the term. I don't shock my dogs other than avoidence training. What we do is stimulate just exactly like they use on us by the therapy people in re-hab.

And on top of this we continueally hear about stupid people who fry their dogs. Probably they are using a "shock collar" instead of an e-collar. Might be all they have ever heard and are doing what they think is the purpose of the collar.

Ezzy

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Ruth,
That is so great, I almost spit my coffee on the computer screen, bad girl Bad!
RGD/Dave

[tabcha63]

Im new to dog owning/training myself. My pup is a year old this month and here is what i did/expect:

1) Hes only 8 months old (roughly 4.6 years old in people years, do you expect a 5 year old to listen :roll: ) dont worry too much about it right now, hes still learning the world.

2) I put trigger on the collar around 6-7 months using Hicox method. Took a few days for him to get used to the stimulation on level 1 doing the Kennel command. After that it was pretty much just anoying for him.

3) There is a pretty good post going on right now about the Come command viewtopic.php?f=89&t=31344

4) Dont expect much from his first year hunting, if you do you will only set yourself up for disappointment. This is triggers first year, next month is the opener for duck, grouse, and stocked pheasents (yes phessies are stocked in PA , and i dont know anything about grouse hunting but gonna learn in about a month ). My approach is going to be take someone hunting with me to gun and I will handle Trigger. Whoever hunts with Trigger and I will just have to understand that he is a pup and next year will be the golden year. So I dont expect to hunt much this year myself, unless he proves otherwise.

But hey, these are a newbies opinions

[birddogger]

It is always us that have to watch how we speak or the terms we use never the %%^#^^@%$# liberal idiots. I am so sick of all of them. Look at where they have done to us where they have put us all. Just leave us alone!!!! Sorry for the Rant.

Ruff, FWIW, I wholeheartedly agree with you!!!

Charlie